What kills small and mid-sized farms?

[Provience]

sort of a spinoff.

we are all aware that the urbanization and industrialization of society has taken a toll on small and midsized farms. micro farms are always in some sort of resurgence it seems, but the mid sized guys are always getting consolidated into large scale everything and such and whatnot.

every decade or two there is a farm crisis. are they all weather dependent? political shifts? is every farm always on the skinny edges and can't survive 2 bad years? simply **** businessmen stuff that afflicts every industry?

what even qualifies as micro/small/mid/large/industrial farming?

in my head, i'd like to be a small farmer. producing more than just what I need to survive as a family but not to the point where i'm living "a good life" or making the equivalent of $35k/year take home for vacations and such. what sort of things lead to the breaking over of that lifestyle?

obviously there are a hundred ways to make more money and whatever.

 

[FleshEater]

Locally, it’s the big family farms that capitalize on all the government hand outs who put them out.

I talk to a lot of farmers getting permission to hunt their lands. The big name local farmers are not well liked for that same reason. They call it milkin off the government ***, basically.

 

[rockota]

Government.

Next question?

 

[spork]

Used to milk cows for a guy 30 years ago, talked to him a couple years back and he mentioned that milk prices were the same as when I was working for him. Most the dairy farmers in the area have closed up, housing/development will pay big $ for the land, kids aren't interested.

 

[TRINDU]

****ty children

When the land is worth millions, they just wait for the old folks to die off and sell to developers.

 

[Provience]

more of less the subsidies holding cash crop prices down to a point the less-than-industrial scale people can't produce at that level then?

 

[woods]

Government.

Next question?

 

[Provience]

****ty children

When the land is worth millions, they just wait for the old folks to die off and sell to developers.

there seems to be a bunch of that where i grew up in CA. it doesn't make much sense to me though. government will also heavily subsidize reinvestment in the land. kids go on and get their own livelyhood and then just don't want to go back? guess that makes sense.

 

[rockota]

more of less the subsidies holding cash crop prices down to a point the less-than-industrial scale people can't produce at that level then?

This... Plus
Regulation.
property taxes.
etc.

Blaming it on ****ty children is myopic. If i could sell for millions or scrape by working 20 hour days, I'd sell as well. Who wouldn't?


Gov't loves them some corporate farming...

 

[JNHEscher]

Current fight here in CO - Colorado ranchers fight ballot proposal they say would be devastating to ag industry

 

[TRINDU]

Blaming it on ****ty children is myopic. If i could sell for millions or scrape by working 20 hour days, I'd sell as well. Who wouldn't?

I would never sell the family ranch. It's only worth a few million in todays dollars, and I recieve nothing monetary from it. I make my own money and would rather have the land and heritage.

So yes, I think its very ****ty of a kid to sell out.

 

[Provience]

i don't know what i'd do with millions, other than be a slighly less poor farmer given the choice

didn't grow up on a farm, never worked a farm full time, no real experience to speak of. just trying to do my part to contribute to the aged small farmer population in this country

 

[JunkCJ6]

grain farms, it is the big guys undercutting the cash rent prices using their big equipment to still make money. most of the small grain farms around here have sold off their equipment and just rent out the acreage and work a normal job now. cost of new equipment was just too much to keep up, the ones that are left are running stuff from the 70's and listening to the farm prices every afternoon and hoping to sell at the right time to make a profit.

animal farms, dairy has been regulated so much, that most can't afford to stay compliant, cattle close to the same.

 

[Provience]

Current fight here in CO - Colorado ranchers fight ballot proposal they say would be devastating to ag industry

yeah that's hilariously terrible legislation.

i can't even begin to think of how that would seem okay or how anybody would approve that sort of nonsense.

 

[JNHEscher]

Buddy of mine works a huge farm in MO. I'm aware of a lot of farmers in MO and adjacent states that are pissed about how land prices exponentially increase to the point that only developers can afford the price and kill farms to multiply their money by filling land with urban housing and shopping centers. My grandpa still owns his 90 acres in central MO and the edge of the city is now damn near at his back door. Don't know the exact price of what they paid for that land back when I was 2 or 3, but we suspected several years ago that it was now worth over a mil due to developers buying up all the farm land between his and the city limits.

 

[rockota]

I would never sell the family ranch. It's only worth a few million in todays dollars, and I recieve nothing monetary from it. I make my own money and would rather have the land and heritage.

So yes, I think its very ****ty of a kid to sell out.

emotionally, I get your point. But between inheritance taxes and ROI to continue farming... added to the ability for government to make it unaffordable (to keep the farm) on a whim (property taxes)... it's neither practical nor fair to say it's ****ty of a kid to sell.

 

[TRINDU]

Provience what is small to you? 10 acres? 100? 1000?

Or do you go by production? Crops? Livestock?

 

[JNHEscher]

yeah that's hilariously terrible legislation.

i can't even begin to think of how that would seem okay or how anybody would approve that sort of nonsense.

Beats me. I don't follow anything political that closely, but talked it over a bit with neighbors. People create a blanket view of an industry merely from what they see in one location in less than a day's time. Blatant ignorance abound. I'm assuming the creators of the ballot wear suits and ties and live in Denver.

 

[Provience]

Provience what is small to you? 10 acres? 100? 1000?

Or do you go by production? Crops? Livestock?

that's why i ask what counts as small, i dunno. under 10 acres would be micro if i had to guess and under 100 small, under 1k mid, under 10k large, over 10k industrial.

just in my head, so i don't know if that is generally acceptable or close.

i'm trying to do ~35 acres to support livestock, alpacas primarily, if i can run 150 of them figure i'd be doing decent. not much money in fluff, but if i can spin it into yarn and sell few blankets the work is much higher but the reward becomes feasable. breeding and meat program as much as possible, but still not great margins.

excluding the property, i'd like to be able to not lose a significant amount of money every year. not sure what that sort of number would look like

 

[JunkCJ6]

Provience what is small to you? 10 acres? 100? 1000?

Or do you go by production? Crops? Livestock?

small is in the perspective of the area of the country that you are in, 1000 might be small in the west where it take 10 acres/head and 100 might be big in the midwest where an acre will support 10 head.

 

[rockota]

that's why i ask what counts as small, i dunno. under 10 acres would be micro if i had to guess and under 100 small, under 1k mid, under 10k large, over 10k industrial.

just in my head, so i don't know if that is generally acceptable or close.

i'm trying to do ~35 acres to support livestock, alpacas primarily, if i can run 150 of them figure i'd be doing decent. not much money in fluff, but if i can spin it into yarn and sell few blankets the work is much higher but the reward becomes feasable. breeding and meat program as much as possible, but still not great margins.

excluding the property, i'd like to be able to not lose a significant amount of money every year. not sure what that sort of number would look like

Can probably get away with $50-100k in losses for a while. Find a good accountant who works with farms. Mine does tree, bee and goat farms....

 

[grumpy356]

Government.

Next question?

our government subsidizes farming and has my whole life.

my libertarian nature has had a problem with this as long as I can remember.

 

[TRINDU]

emotionally, I get your point. But between inheritance taxes and ROI to continue farming... added to the ability for government to make it unaffordable (to keep the farm) on a whim (property taxes)... it's neither practical nor fair to say it's ****ty of a kid to sell.

That does roll back around to government putting the squeeze on the land owner. I know of several guys who sold/doze the farmhouse to keep from paying taxes when the older generation died. Continued to farm the land but **** the taxman trying to squeeze $5k-10k a year for an empty dwelling. Rest if the place is still ag exempt.

It's also from personal experience. I've known some ****ty people (both family and acquaintances) who sold land. Sometimes it's just one kid, and the others cant afford to pay them off.

Somehow the past generations could make a living. Now all of a sudden its too much of a burden. Somewhere poor decision making skills lead to the sale of the land.

 

[rockota]

our government subsidizes farming and has my whole life.

my libertarian nature has had a problem with this as long as I can remember.

I'd have to research, but I don't think that bundling all small and/or family farms into those getting subsidies is fair. I'm sure some do. I know some don't. unless you want to consider tax deductions/write offs a subsidy.

 

[TRINDU]

small is in the perspective of the area of the country that you are in, 1000 might be small in the west where it take 10 acres/head and 100 might be big in the midwest where an acre will support 10 head.

What kind of super grass supports 10 head an acre We both know that be a dirt lot in 48 hours.

Edit: guess that depends if you're talking cattle or rabbits

 

[Provience]

Can probably get away with $50-100k in losses for a while. Find a good accountant who works with farms. Mine does tree, bee and goat farms....

cows, goats and the things they eat are the 3 large ag streams for SE idaho where i'm looking at doing this. the main industry is mining in the region and the cows seem to exist to simply take up the space in between. alpacas being camels fall into a bit more of a gray area still as far as the USDA is concerned. I'm hoping that helps a bit

the hope is that i'll be able to have a bit of oddity draw rather than "just goats" while the downside is that i can't just tap into the existing goat structure.

 

[Provience]

What kind of super grass supports 10 head an acre We both know that be a dirt lot in 48 hours.

there is a place in Oregon that has 15 or so BISON on what appears to be a 2 acre lot

can't imagine what it takes to deal with that drama and keep them sedated enough

 

[rockota]

That does roll back around to government putting the squeeze on the land owner. I know of several guys who sold/doze the farmhouse to keep from paying taxes when the older generation died. Continued to farm the land but **** the taxman trying to squeeze $5k-10k a year for an empty dwelling. Rest if the place is still ag exempt.

It's also from personal experience. I've known some ****ty people (both family and acquaintances) who sold land. Sometimes it's just one kid, and the others cant afford to pay them off.

Somehow the past generations could make a living. Now all of a sudden its too much of a burden. Somewhere poor decision making skills lead to the sale of the land.

Yup... i'm sure there are people who are just not "born to farm." 100% agree. But I also know (from family) that gov't has done a lot to make the farm lifestyle more difficult over the last 50+ years.

My aunt finally sold out her family farm... once gov't gets an idea that the farm land is worth more to them as high-density housing, they consider the farm a financial burden. Then the property taxes start to increase... then it becomes unaffordable.

Gov't...

 

[Eric]

Correct answer: Supply and demand. Consumers want low prices. The efficiency of large scale production delivers low prices. Goodbye to small and medium farms.

Government has tried to prop up small scale farms with subsidies and so forth but anytime government meddles with the economy it only creates higher prices and scarcity.

 

[JNHEscher]

What kind of super grass supports 10 head an acre We both know that be a dirt lot in 48 hours.

Edit: guess that depends if you're talking cattle or rabbits

Missouri grass lol. I don't know anybody in my home state that can go a full week without bogging down their mowers.