Hummer H3 Build

[94toytruck]

Just looking at the pics .030 was too deep. I'd have been going to.025 or .020 next. I've done a pile of used gears, they typically suck.

 

[06h3]

Just looking at the pics .030 was too deep. I'd have been going to.025 or .020 next. I've done a pile of used gears, they typically suck.

Doesn’t help that they are from 1959. Lol here’s .027 behind the pinion .012 backlash

 

[94toytruck]

I have a hard time reading your patterns especially the 2nd one but it looks deep IMHO by looking at the crisp line.

I use this method, I know you guys were saying about spinning the ring but this is what I was taught to get a better defined pattern. I use a 1/2 ratchet and the ring till it's hard to spin.

How To Create & Read Ring Gear Patterns

Gear tooth patterns are harbingers… they can foretell whether your ring and pinion gear set is going to live a long and prosperous life or if it’s doomed to an impending catastrophic failure. Pulling off a proper differential setup comes down to precise adjustments.

www.yukongear.com

This is j8st a sample on in my phone of a used track/kick 5.12

 

[06h3]

94toytruck I think it’s been a bear to pull a pattern due to the pitting and wear on the R&P.

Here is more shims taken out. I have had many patterns pull like the one above, clear and consistent.

Here is .022 behind the pinion

 

[94toytruck]

What's the backlash on that? I noticed the last time you mentioned BL it was .012 so I looked up the spec on here quick and noticed it's max of .008.

R&P Backlash: .005-.008"
Ring Gear Bolt TQ: 85-95
Brg Cap Bolts TQ: 95-105
Pinion Brg Retainer Cap Bolts TQ: 90-100
Pinion Flange Nut TQ: 160-280
Thrust Block Adj. Nut TQ: 10-20
Axle Shaft Flange to Hub Bolt TQ: 85-95

Other Misc.:
Differential Flange Runout (max): .002"
Thrust Black Clearance, Block to Gear: .005-.007"
Backlash Side Gear to Spider Gear: .004-.007"
Ring Gear Runout (mounted to case): .006"

I'm legit trying to help and trying to figure this out. Something isn't quite right here, your last pattern the coast looks shallow but the drive looks deep yet. I've seen used setups where the drive side was a mess so you setup off the coast but the drive side is way different here,

 

[06h3]

What's the backlash on that? I noticed the last time you mentioned BL it was .012 so I looked up the spec on here quick and noticed it's max of .008.


I'm legit trying to help and trying to figure this out. Something isn't quite right here, your last pattern the coast looks shallow but the drive looks deep yet. I've seen used setups where the drive side was a mess so you setup off the coast but the drive side is way different here,

I appreciate the help, I really do, I haven’t been this dumbfounded on gears ever. I was running .012 because everyone running an HO72 runs them loose. My first 3rd was at like .020 (was setup like that when I got it) and I called up a reputable gear shop and they said we run them between .015-.020

Then AlxJ64 said he runs .008-.013 on his so I was just following what others have done.

Could it be possible this R&P is just no good?

I have never seen anything like it. On all the diffs I’ve set up I’ve run 2-3 pinion changes and it’s good. I’ve done .025 .013, and .007 in front of the pinion race to push it back. No shims as well.

Then I’ve run .050, .030, .027, .024, .022 all behind the pinon head in to push it forward. So I’ve run 9 setups. .030 was too deep on the coast and drive. .022 is still too deep on drive but if I go any farther to help the drive, I envision coast will fall off.

I can reset it up at .022 with .008 backlash and send more pics. Other than that I’m all ears to any suggestions. I have verified the gearset is matched. They date code these things and both the pinion and ring gear say 3-59. March 1959. In theory someone could have found 2 3-59 gear sets and mixed them up but I highly doubt someone 40-60 years later found 2 3-59 sets

 

[arse_sidewards]

Did the gears that came out have a good pattern? Any chance the 3rd is the problem?

 

[94toytruck]

It's certainly possible there's a wear pattern on that gear setup causing the issue. Is it apart now or still together? Maybe try running a .008 and .020 BL pattern and see what happens?

 

[06h3]

Did the gears that came out have a good pattern? Any chance the 3rd is the problem?

My biggest regret is not pulling a pattern on the old set before pulling it. Lesson learned! I am not sure if the 3rd is a problem since I didn’t pull a pattern on the old one. A backstory of its history probably says the 3rd itself could be hurt. Honestly, the thing I loved about the eatons is that they came with 5.14 gears. Historically, it was grab a 5.14 third. Spin it to make sure pinon preload wasn’t too loose. Slap a locker in there, or if you’re lucky, it had a factory Detroit in there. Usually adjusting backlash was the most you had to do, then peel out. I should have just slapped another 3rd in there. I had a spare set of gears (not in a 3rd) that I got in an Eaton deal and figured I might as well keep this 3rd so I keep my spare 3rds. I had 7.5 years and over 30,000 miles on my first 3rd. It’s been on 2 Ultimate adventures, probably 20 hammers trips at minimum, 7 rubicon trips, a ton of local Idaho wheeling when I moved to Idaho, multiple sand hollow and Moab trips. It’s pulled countless broken rigs out of tough trails, I have pulled multiple dead U4 cars up hammer trails. My rig isn’t light (7k) has 400hp, deep gearing and it had 40-43s this axles life. Best of all, I got it for free, sold my 10 bolt with an ox locker and 5.13s to a hummer guy for $1000 and MADE MONEY on 1 ton swapping the rear. It hasn’t had an easy life but could I have actually tweaked the 3rd? Idk. I didn’t even hear it break or know it broke. I literally pulled the axle out to do suspension changes and just pulled the cover and saw it. Last fluid change was about a year prior.

It's certainly possible there's a wear pattern on that gear setup causing the issue. Is it apart now or still together? Maybe try running a .008 and .020 BL pattern and see what happens?

It’s still out. I can run .008 and .020BL. I may head over to Lincoln later. I’ve done like 20 gearsets in my life, I think he’s in the hundreds and having someone else take a look at it isn’t a bad idea. I’ve been at it, on and off for like 5 days. There is a solid west pattern, the only question I have, is the wear the pitted area or the non pitted area?

 

[Lincoln]

My first guess is the gears are worn heavily. We know they are pitted and you can see good wear marks on the unpainted teeth.

Yesterday while we were conversing I decided he should try to hit that wear pocket, right or wrong. That's just where they have worn in. Looking at the last pic posted and the first unpainted tooth to the right. You can even see the wear in the pic and that wear mark looks very similar to the pattern. Pics are hard for me to read and yesterday I should have been not looking at my phone, these look way better. But still if the wear can be seen in a pic then they are probably really worn. The pitting isn't helping.

Hell the gears could have come out of a fawked up diff. Remember the sawdust trick? That came from the 50's.

 

[94toytruck]

Bet you can setup the coast side(least wear) pretty easily and the drive side will be strange still. I'm in agreement the gears probably have heavy wear. If you're set on using them maybe setup a good pattern on the coast, set BL in spec and send it. I don't think you're going to get a great pattern on the drive due to wear.

With the pitting and odd wear pattern I'm thinking a good drive pattern will be hard to achieve.

 

[06h3]

When it comes to worn gears is there strength concerns or will they just be noisy? My 43in Mickeys are so damn loud my buddy who was trailering his rig 30 ft in front of me on the highway called me thinking he had a flat trailer tire….nope it was my tires

So I can deal with noise, I just want strength.

 

[Aisin]

70 plus year old 3rd member that was overloaded to fuck a good 30 years or more of it’s life plus heavy use in your rig. The drive side is heavily worn as stated. Try to get a decent pattern off of the coast side and peel the fuck out. I doubt you will ever hurt it.

 

[94toytruck]

Give it a shot! Set it up off the coast side, set backlash ad see what happens. With the poor surface o the gears it may try to wear a mew patter in.

 

[06h3]

Here’s .022 pinon depth and tightened up backlash to .008. Gonna head to Lincoln’s later and see what he thinks.

Is the old pattern the pitted area or non pitted area? I’d assume non pitted but I’ve been told the opposite.

 

[Lincoln]

I'm kind of tempted to go for drive. The theory with coast is you are more likely to hear the noise. I would consider noise a non issue in this rig.

Once running I just watch heat. If they are getting hot they won't last at speed. They may need some time to settle unless they magically are in the worn groove.

 

[06h3]

Couldn’t get a pattern because it was riding on a ridge that’s never been worn in for 60 years. Went to .003 to get out of the ridge. Learn something new everyday. Thank you Lincoln !!!!

 

[Lincoln]

Yeah it kind of sucks but I think it will be ok.

The hard line you can see at the root of the tooth in most of the patterns is actually a wear mark you can feel. It's large enough to prevent complete contact when going deeper. We went shallower until the line just started disappearing, I'm hoping that is close enough to the worn in groove. You can barely see that ridge in the last picture.

Both sides looka little better than they appear. The rest of the pattern is there but they aren't quite making hard contact. Really visible when you are a few feet away. Also on the broken gear set I picked up you can see the polished wear pattern from a few feet back. I saw 06h3's reflection in it. It didn't look that great either.

Bottom line is it's 60 years old with an unknown history. Built when precision machining was quite a bit different than today. And these axles were in rigs that were abused, because you bought them for man stuff, not the grocery store.

Anyway, watch the heat and that's probably the best indication it needs revisited.

I got out of trouble with the wife by telling her she could see the baby. I'm not sure why but I think she is tired of stinky teenage boys, smelly dogs, and the best husband ever.

 

[06h3]

Yeah it kind of sucks but I think it will be ok.

The hard line you can see at the root of the tooth in most of the patterns is actually a wear mark you can feel. It's large enough to prevent complete contact when going deeper. We went shallower until the line just started disappearing, I'm hoping that is close enough to the worn in groove. You can barely see that ridge in the last picture.

Both sides looka little better than they appear. The rest of the pattern is there but they aren't quite making hard contact. Really visible when you are a few feet away. Also on the broken gear set I picked up you can see the polished wear pattern from a few feet back. I saw 06h3's reflection in it. It didn't look that great either.

Bottom line is it's 60 years old with an unknown history. Built when precision machining was quite a bit different than today. And these axles were in rigs that were abused, because you bought them for man stuff, not the grocery store.

Anyway, watch the heat and that's probably the best indication it needs revisited.

I got out of trouble with the wife by telling her she could see the baby. I'm not sure why but I think she is tired of stinky teenage boys, smelly dogs, and the best husband ever.

Thanks again for the help! I’m really curious how this one lasts. I’ll test drive it tomorrow and see how much noise it makes.

Done, the baby can come by in the hummer

 

[06h3]

Just did my first test drive! Quick little 6 mile drive.

From what I can tell, no gear noise! YES! Granted I have the worlds loudest tires but I couldn’t really hear much. Going down the road on flat ground letting off to coast at 35,45 and 55 I couldn’t hear it. Going downhill coasting I can’t say for sure. I’ll go back down that hill next time I get it out. Overall it’s a win, since I didnt hear insanely loud noise’s from the diff.

Test drive from a suspension standpoint, it’s smooth! It definitely needs a sway bar. It also doesn’t self center back to neutral stance. Does that mean the springs are too soft? One friend of mine said his did the same and he’s a traditional 3 link front 4 link rear. I figure plenty of buggy’s run no sway bar and they don’t have this issue. Just don’t know why

 

[Lincoln]

I'm no expert but I think it's more about the spring rate vs rebound valving. My dads YJ does it with air shocks some. They have a high rate on the rebound.

 

[fl0w3n]

Couldn’t get a pattern because it was riding on a ridge that’s never been worn in for 60 years.

You asked it several times and I never saw a direct answer, did you finally confirm if the worn part is the smooth side? That would make sense but obviously there’s a reason you asked.

Glad you finally got it sorted

 

[06h3]

I'm no expert but I think it's more about the spring rate vs rebound valving. My dads YJ does it with air shocks some. They have a high rate on the rebound.

That may be it, I was sent the package from accutune with 350-400 spring rate, it had like 8in of uptravel with .5in of preload. So I sent them new specs and the new rate was 275-325 so substantially less. Maybe its that the rebound is set for the higher spring rate. I also wish I could get some corner weights on this thing. Off the top of my head I have 400 lbs more on the driver side compared to the pass side not including me. (fuel tank capacity is about 300 lbs, then a fuel tank skid, about a little over 100 lbs of tools more on the driver side then pass side) that actually may be nice when accounting for torque roll when on the throttle. I will put in a sway bar and that will solve it. Maybe a revalve too at some point.

You asked it several times and I never saw a direct answer, did you finally confirm if the worn part is the smooth side? That would make sense but obviously there’s a reason you asked.

Glad you finally got it sorted

Lincoln can probably answer that better. I think it was the smooth shining part. There were multiple factors. the ridge, which definitely wasn't ever worn, the shiny part and the pitted part.

 

[06h3]

I put another 10-12 miles on it just cruising around town. I added the sway bar back up front. It definitely needed a sway bar. That is one thing I liked about leaf springs, I could have used a sway bar but it wasnt mandatory. I feel it is mandatory with coilovers front and back and I guess it makes sense. I usually see sway bars on any rig that has coilovers f/r and not always on leaf spring rigs, sure buggies with no weight up top you get away without them but any factory modified 4x4 seems to have sway bars if it’s coilovers f/r.

A while back in this thread I had posted my front sway bar setup. It’s a generic universal Currie 36in bar with 18in arms. I extended the arms out to 26.5in eye to sway bar center. It took away the slightest amount of sway I felt I had but in the end, the arms were so long they hit stuff, they had deflection from being so long and weren’t viable long term. It was a test, it didn’t work out.

So the easiest way to solve this problem was to rework the front bar, I shortened it up to 13.5in. It doesn’t deflect now, it self centers much better, and in my opinion, a viable, long term solution for the front. While it is 1000x better then no sway bars, I think I still want to add a rear bar.

I am not a fan of Currie, I think they are overpriced for what they are and there are better options for a similar price. I will finish out the front with new steel arms. They have been hacked to be way longer, and now way shorter than originally intended and are pretty wrecked. They are fine for now but esthetically they should be changed, but to focus on the rear, I was looking at TK1 racing. Their rock crawler setup is way cheaper then Currie and way nicer. I called them and unfortunately the rock crawler setup won’t work with my setup. He fears I’m too close to yield. I was looking at a 27in bar, 12in arms. He wants me in a 30-33in bar with 14in arms. I can do that but need to get the arms inwards to fit between the coilovers. I can’t go outside. I’ll run into air bumps and C pillar external frame tie ins. Bending him arms doesn’t seem feasible. I started looking into building my own setup with Schroeder sway bars and keyser arms. A friend used them and has had good success. The thing I’m trying to figure out is what sway bar rate to use. My current setup according to a sway bar calculator is a spring rate of 52. That’s a 36in bar, .770 diameter, 13.5in arms. That’s pretty generic as I see heat treatment can change rate according to TK1s site.

So that’s where I’m at. It’s way better, but wanna still add a rear bar. I figure I’ll use a .850 or .90 bar? 14in arms? Just trying to figure out what to do. Does anyone have sway bar tech?

Here you can see the new arm length (mock up) and where I used to have it on the axle tube.

Lastly, my sister spent all that time cleaning the interior. It’s paid off. I’m just waiting on my wife to give birth.

 

[Lincoln]

Cool.

I don't have anything to add on the sway bar. I had a Rock Equipment (TK) for my dads junk and sold it to my friend down the street. He was happy and Tony got him parts to make it work. I don't think Tony would point you in the wrong direction.

 

[06h3]

Tonight’s quick project needed to be done in 2019.

When I did the doubler swap in 2019 my exhaust ran into the doubler. I hate exhaust work so I put those crappy flexible “exhaust repair” things on it to snake around the 205 and said, I’ll get to it later. After 4 years of getting harassed by friends and embarrassment to strangers I finally replaced it.

Honestly, I don’t know why I hate exhaust work so much, after I did it I realized it wasn’t that bad

 

[06h3]

No real update but figured I’d share a “far away” picture. Since they have all been super close up from when it was backed into the garage.

I’ve been doing more street driving and making sure all is fine with the diff.

I realized I had the damn DSC clickers all the way open. Admittedly, I never checked them. I tightened em up and will test drive it later. Those things make a huge change. With the front, when they are completely open, it’s like a boat, with them completely closed, it’s stiff but sporty. I’ll still be adding a rear sway bar but with the front sway bar on and the rear closed up some on the clickers I imagine it will be very drivable.

Speaking of sway bars, I have a 30in 1in OD bar from Schroeder that they turned down to .825 in the mail.

14.5 in arms with a 30 degree drop on the way. I’m mounting the bar as high as possible so getting that drop will help make sure it doesn’t run into the floor. The arms are 1in thick. I’ll be doing double shear. I have 1/2in heims from Barnes in the mail as well. I just need to get some 1in .120wall tubing locally to make the end links

 

[CDA 455 II]

No real update but figured I’d share a “far away” picture. Since they have all been super close up from when it was backed into the garage.

I’ve been doing more street driving and making sure all is fine with the diff.

I realized I had the damn DSC clickers all the way open. Admittedly, I never checked them. I tightened em up and will test drive it later. Those things make a huge change. With the front, when they are completely open, it’s like a boat, with them completely closed, it’s stiff but sporty. I’ll still be adding a rear sway bar but with the front sway bar on and the rear closed up some on the clickers I imagine it will be very drivable.

How do those tires handle/feel on the road?

 

[06h3]

CDA 455 II Horrible compared to any "streetable" MT, horrible but when your offroad its awesome.

 

[ridered3]

Glad to see you getting things sorted out and awesome picture of the carseat in the H3!

Soon as we got to come home with our little dude, I put the carseat in the crawler and snapped a few pictures while getting the "seriously" look form the wifey