13 speed roadranger in 1997 Ram 3500

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    13 speed roadranger in 1997 Ram 3500

    Original thread is here:
    https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/no...r-swap.912565/

    Truck is long gone, but I sure miss it.
    Last edited by Mr. Mindless; 06-12-2020, 08:50 AM.

    #2
    Mr. Mindless

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    5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #1 Aug 25, 2010 (Edited)When something breaks I like to upgrade it. Just after I got my high miles Cummins last fall, 5th fell off. It had been "repaired" previously so the main shaft was shot. I put a reman transmission in along with a nice South Bend dual disc clutch, and was happy.

    5th gear broke two teeth 9 months and 17,700 miles later. Not happy, I decided I wasn't going to stick with the NV4500. I pull heavy and hated the huge ratio splits, and I have no intention of breaking another transmission. An NV5600 would have helped the large splits, but I've seen heavy towing users making good power break them too, and the lack of availability made me nervous as well - and the cost was almost identical to my cost with this setup from most sources (though with much less fab work...).

    I'd looked through my options when last the trans failed, looking primarily at any way I could get more overdrive out of any swap option. At the time I'd restricted my search to 8 speeds and below, and therefore didn't come across the Eaton RTOO series. This time, I did, and that's what I settled on. I sourced a fully rebuilt RTOO9513 from Casey's Truck Salvage World in Depew NY. I picked it up on Friday 8/13, finished tearing out the NV4500, replaced 5th, strapped it to a pallet and sent it on to its new life via Forward Air on Monday, and test drove my 13 speed Cummins Dodge on Thursday 8/19. Friday and Saturday I finished building a doghouse and put the interior back together, and Sunday-Monday I took it on a 1100 mile test drive to Minnesota.
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    #2 Aug 25, 2010In the interest of time, I left it 4x2 for now. I have a divorced NP205 that I'll throw in sometime. I'll air shift probably just the front between N and H, I shouldn't need low range with my gearing options. Low and Low Reverse are very nearly the same as R and 1 in low range of the 241 with the 5 or 6 speed. I should be able to squeeze a one piece front shaft around the transmission, but it'll be interesting to see when I get to it.

    What I got from Casey's (in my wheeler, since the tow pig is the only other rig I have on the road) was the transmission, SAE #2 clutch housing, clutch, shifter and RoadRanger knob, 14" flywheel, and some fasteners. They had a fun yard truck - two of them actually....

    Some things to watch for:
    the flywheel is thicker, and as such the stock flywheel bolts would be too short.
    most SAE clutch housings have the starter on the passenger side. My stock starter would not clear the block in that location, and the starter I got with the swap parts did not clear the frame.
    setting up a manual clutch linkage from scratch is every bit of the bitch you could imagine.
    Attachments#3 Aug 25, 2010A few pictures of the trans...
    Attachments#4 Aug 25, 2010Obviously there was some floor cutting to be done, but otherwise the main pieces just bolt-on....
    Attachments#5 Aug 25, 2010Then of course there were some mounts to make.

    If I was going to do it over again I finally thought of a better way to do the rear mount than the stock type spring mount: I'd go from those two main studs backwards to a double valve spring type mount to a crossmember that more tightly wraps the trans that I could then attach to the frame to keep the trans tunnel from needing the wide bump outs I had to make to cover that leaf spring mount.
    Attachments

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      #3
      #6 Aug 25, 2010As I mentioned the clutch linkage was a total bear. The stock linkage location only gives about 2" of throw to the hydro setup, and that just didn't cut it. I came further down the clutch lever inside to increase throw. Parts of the lever assembly are 3/4x3/4 heims, 3/4 solid rod, and 1"x.120 tubing. I notice no deflection, and I'm pretty happy with the effort and feel. It was a pain to come up with something that worked, and then to make it match needed throw and pedal position. I was also stubborn about not making a new hole in the firewall; that would have made some things simpler.
      Attachments#7 Aug 25, 2010More clutch linkage, and clutch housing mounts.
      AttachmentsJeepsRcool

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      1,353 Posts #8 Aug 25, 2010how much did that new trans set you back?
      Plasma Table Build / Torchmate 2x2
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        #4

        ​​Mr. Mindless

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        5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #9 Aug 25, 2010Once the clutch linkage and bell mounts were done, I still had the spring mounts to take care of. I actually didn't take any pictures of them directly. They're just angle capped with 1/4" plate welded to the frame. Driver side needed a spacer, which I used some random 2x4x.25 box for.
        Attachments#10 Aug 25, 2010Obviously there's much more to come in the build (we're only up to Tuesday night), and there's much more to come in the first drive stories as well, but I'm calling it quits for tonight... Nnightcrawlers

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        1,256 Posts #11 Aug 25, 2010wow ​​

        what ate the lines for on top of the tranny? defiantely lookin forward to the rest of your writeup ​​
        scotty
        85 grand waggoneer(what's left of it)
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        327 Posts #12 Aug 25, 2010Very nice, good job
        1989 4Runner SAS on 37"s, dual cases 4.7 rear, Twin stick, 4.88 gears, locker, offroad seats, 4 point harness. Just plain sick!!!!

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        2,823 Posts #13 Aug 25, 2010That's bad ass!! My buddy and I have been looking at an Eaton swap if/when our NV5600's go out.

        Can't wait to see the finished product.
        ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑβΕ

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          CAC91

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          113 Posts #14 Aug 25, 2010What a teaser. Here I was excited to read about something cool and you stop telling the story partially through what you've already finished up!

          Anyhow, nice job using something way overkill for the application. I like it. Also way nice job not putting in an automatic, since those are for bitches.SaveShare
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          LikeLLS1_CJ

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          190 Posts #15 Aug 25, 2010
          nightcrawlers said:
          wow

          what ate the lines for on top of the tranny? defiantely lookin forward to the rest of your writeup
          If you meant what "are" those lines, they are probably air lines.1980 CJ5 LS1, 4l60e, dana 300, mild suspension work, 35's
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          Liketlspeed1

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          809 Posts #16 Aug 25, 2010Was thinking along the same lines as you....except I can get my hands on a 3560 6 speed allison. What did you do for the large yoke on the trans to the 1410 on axleSaveShare
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          1,565 Posts #17 Aug 25, 2010I got an old 5-speed Spicer for my '90 Dodge but haven't been able to find a cheap flywheel housing (or flywheel for that matter). I have a #3 housing which is more than enough room for the kind of clutch I'd need, but the Spicer clutch housing is #2 and I don't think I'll be able to find a #3 for it. I haven't even tried calling a big truck junkyard since I just can't imagine that having the parts pulled would be anywhere near my price range (I got the trans itself for $50).SaveShare
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          6,405 Posts #18 Aug 25, 2010bad ass! I'm assuming the tranny is out of a cummins powered highway tractor? Just curious, the 13 is an awesome tranny, but would it have not been simpler to put a 7 or 10 in instead?Doc - "Tackle me in a Walmart and its game on, I will beat the shit out of you with a toaster oven."

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            #6
            nightcrawlers

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            1,256 Posts #21 • Aug 25, 2010 (Edited)
            LS1_CJ said:
            If you meant what "are" those lines, they are probably air lines.



            doh!
            FordFascist said:
            Are you mounting the transmission to the body with that cheezy looking piece of flat bar?

            I truly hope that is not permanent. You need to build a lot beefier mount if you expect that to last, not to mention not wanting it to rip the floor out of the truck.



            ummm... mebbe i dont spell or type too good but im pretty sure that mount is to support the seats or the new tranny tunnel or something,not the floor supporting the tranny. wow...

            anyway,im thinkin we should prolly let the man finish up his build thread before we criticize.scotty
            85 grand waggoneer(what's left of it)
            77 scout II truggy
            84 chevy home made crewcab

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            Harold Phipps

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            2,446 Posts #22 • Aug 25, 2010Pretty sure that flat bar (spring actually) rests on top of the frame rails of the pickup. That is where they rest on the big truck the trans came out of. Supports the back of the trans.
            I think that is the part he had to make spacers for that he mentioned earlier.
            Has to flex some since engine is supported up front and at the flywheel housing

            nightcrawlers

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            1,256 Posts #23 • Aug 25, 2010Hmm... Crafty scotty
            85 grand waggoneer(what's left of it)
            77 scout II truggy
            84 chevy home made crewcab

            Delightfully Tacky,Yet Unrefined

            Mr. Mindless

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            5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #24 • Aug 25, 2010The main supports for the transmission are at the clutch housing. That rear bar is a spring type mount, and of course goes to mounts on the frame not the body.

            There are two large studs on the top of big truck transmissions that help support the rear of the transmission. They go to either a spring steel leaf that spans the frame rails, as I'm using, or to a solid bracket using large coil springs to a solid crossmember. as I said above, if I ever redo the rear mount, that's the one thing I would change. Whether you think so or not, there are no strength issues with this setup, it is as it is done from the factory in all heavy trucks.



            No idea what the trans came out of, but they were common in Ford Louisvilles and F700s among others. The clutch housing can come out of anything with a SAE #2 trans powered by a B series Cummins, there are a lot of them in class 5-6 trucks.

            Yes, those are the air lines to control the range shifting and splitter.

            As for the 13 versus an 8, 9, or 10 - exact same level of difficulty (air, mounts, pull mechanical clutch, SAE bell, etc etc) but the RTOO gives me a .62 top gear which is the same final drive as throwing 3.55s in my truck. I've always gotten terrible milage with this truck. I've got 88 tanks of fuel in my logs, 10 have been over 15mpg. Two of those are 16.4 on my way from NY to MN just now. I've never done this trip unloaded so I don't have a direct comparison to make. I'm hoping to improve on my usual 10.5-12.5 when towing too but I won't know about that for a little while. In any case it's nice to be in my power band at a 2000RPM cruise instead of over it at 2500RPM to do 73.

            Now, on with the build....

            #25 • Aug 25, 2010
            Harold Phipps said:
            Pretty sure that flat bar (spring actually) rests on top of the frame rails of the pickup. That is where they rest on the big truck the trans came out of. Supports the back of the trans.
            I think that is the part he had to make spacers for that he mentioned earlier.
            Has to flex some since engine is supported up front and at the flywheel housing.



            Thanks for having a clue

            to those who didn't get it the first time around


            #26 • Aug 25, 2010So when we left our fearless builder, the trans was hung and the clutch was all set. No air, no shifter, no starter, no drivelines.... and less than a week to a planned Minnesota trip.

            As I touched on, the starter was a toughie. The stocker hit the block. I tried to shave it down, but couldn't take off as much meat as I needed to without removing all the body that one of the electric motor studs threads into. The boss it was hitting is the one best lit in the photo below.

            The starter I got with the clutch housing was very into the frame, and I couldn't flip it 180˚*since it, too, hit the block.

            I found a high torque starter (as opposed to gear reduction) that was smaller, with an in-line motor, for a Ford Cummins application via DB Electric. I had to trim the end of the engine mount bolt off, and remove a small gusset on the stock engine mount that you can see in the pic below (not worried with the addition of the beefy clutch housing mount) to get it to clear, but it then mounted up, and just barely cleared the frame.

            I also had to switch around the battery cables to hook up the passenger side starter. That was quite simple, I just had to swap the positive cables on each battery around and extend the solenoid trigger over to the passenger side.








            #27 • Aug 25, 2010Driveline was pretty easy. Stock setup is 4x.095 tube, there is a 1710 Spicer yoke for 4x.134 tube. I had my driveline shop shave down the slip stub to fit the 4x.134 tube and retubed the shaft from the carrier bearing forward. Reminder that for the moment the truck is a two wheel drive. When I put a tcase back in, I'll have the front half of the shaft shortened and keep the front two existing joints and slip, and go into the 205, then have a new complete rear shaft made to run from the case to the rear axle. I'm hoping I can put the case far enough back to have the rear shaft be one piece. If I'm really lucky a single piece front will be able to happen as well, but I'm not betting on that


            In the second pic you can see a new yellow line, that's my air feed line. I got a 12v Thomas compressor mounted on the inner fender right next to the PDC under the hood. It outputs to a manifold with the pressure switch right there. I have the power side of a relay running straight from the battery to a 30a fuse and the compressor, and the trigger side running from ignion switched power through a 75/100psi switch from an old HF compressor. That cheapie's tank is mounted to the passenger side framerail.

            You may have noticed that the starter completely fills up where the exhaust used to go. I forgot to take any pictures of it since it was one of the last things I did, but I cut up my stock system and reused the pieces for a straight dump from the turbo down out the fender well and back through most of the same 3" system with 5" expansion chamber, dumping behind the cab under the bed. No drone, no complaints.









            #28 • Aug 26, 2010The shifter was a bit tall to begin with. A couple bends and cuts and it was good to go. This brings us to Thursday, and a test drive. Plenty of unsynchrod gear grinding, but it was a 97% success from a functionality perspective. The 3% is that I didn't guess right on the speedometer hookup: I had the 2 wires reversed. The stock speedo is a 3 wire hookup; the Eaton uses a two wire, so the ground is ignored. Once I flipped the wires, the signal was monstrously off: much too fast. I knew a Dakota Digital SGI-5 was my answer, but couldn't find one in stock around Rochester. A smart friend suggested picking one up at Summit in Akron on my way to MN, so I placed a will-call order and prepared for on the road installation by running the signal and to-PCM wires to the dash, and giving myself a +12v and ground as well.

            Then all that was left was sealing it all up.... That ended up being more time consuming than I expected.Attachments









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              #29 Aug 26, 2010All hand bent on my workbench, trimmed, tacked in the truck, and full welded in the driveway. The bottom side has a quart of Herculiner on it, and the top side is Dynomatted.

              The carpet ended up pretty lumpy but fits well enough for now. Both seat bases ended up needing some trimming. The passenger seat needs further work, with the slider track hitting the doghouse. I'm going to flip the riser and track so it can slide forward again for good rear seat ingress/egress.Attachments

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              #30 Aug 26, 2010I ended up finishing up late on Saturday night, slept in, and left for Minnesota midday Sunday for Akron and Summit, needing to make the 290 miles before 21:00 to catch them before closing time.

              Everything went smoothly until running 271 south past Cleveland. I heard an air line pop off, and checked my gauge and saw 0psi. I had 30-40 miles to go to Summit; I quickly remembered that I'd left my extra air fittings in my garage. I wasn't sure where anything had failed, and I wasn't sure exactly what would happen with no air pressure.

              As I was thinking about how far it might be to the next Lowes/ Home Depot/ whatever, it fell out of range into no-man's land. I had an exit ramp to coast down and pulled over to investigate. I had quite a stack of failures to deal with.....

              - I'd forgotten about a temp fitting I used going to the 2 gallon tank. I was out of hose barbs, and used an air tool as a mockup fitting. It didn't leak, and I'd forgotten about it... The air line popped off there and the hose clamps vacated.
              - I borrowed a clamp off the compressor, but couldn't get it to hold. Stole another doubled clamp, but then it popped off the compressor.
              - I replumbed the system to skip the tank, using the tank drain as a plug for that port, and replaced the extra clamps up at the compressor.
              - System was now holding 100psi, but the shifter controls were doing nothing. Still in no-man's land range.

              I couldn't figure out what was wrong. I started tracing every line under the sun, looking for anything out of place, looking for any way to plumb it to force high range - but discovered wrong fitting sizes.... And I had no adaptors.

              I finally discovered the root of the issue. There's a filter/regulator on the air supply to the transmission, and the cap and spring vacated, allowing no pressure to the trans lines. I really, really lucked out and the plunger was still there, otherwise I'd have been truely stuck. I called the only nearby fleet service place Google found for me and he had nothing for me; expecting the closest part would be in Youngstown...

              I tried a couple different socket-and-ziptie combinations but every time I applied pressure it would spit the sockets out. What ended up working just barely well enough to hold in in range was just a zip tie alone. I left it in high and didn't split since even the range shift took 2-3 seconds, but it was enough to get me down to road to a Lowe's.

              1" NPT was about right for the cap; the first one I grabbed was a bit too large an OD, but the second one - along with a spring from my flashlight - did the trick. The threads didn't match but it went on well enough, and with a zip tie safety it got me shifting right and back on the road.

              I made it to Summit just in time (20:30), wandered a bit (my first time there) and then spent about 45 minutes driving in circles around their parking lot to get the SGI-5 set right. I had no clue what sort of signal the '97 Dodge PCM was looking for. Not knowing my final goal and having never screwed around with an SGI-5 before I had to do a lot of trial and error to choose the right output. For future reference I needed to use the 4000 pulse per mile output. I got it close in the parking lot, and tweaked it using the cruise control once I was back on the interstate. That put me within 4%, and then I clocked the odometer versus my GPS for an exact setting.

              Tooling across Wisconsin on my last leg it seemed to me that the trans was getting warmer than it should - but I really had nothing to go off of. I'm just using a towel for a shift boot at this point, so I get more heat and scent leak than I really should, but even the shift lever was getting warm. All I had to go on was "hot" though - not real accurate when spec dictates that anything under 250˚F is an acceptable temp per Eaton. After I got to MN, I checked my fluid level and it was good; I picked up a water temp/oil pressure combo gauge pod from O'Riely's and now have a better positioned, lit, and matching air pressure and trans temp gauges. Tooling around town here in MN I've seen it get only to 170˚. I don't think I have anything to worry about, but now I can put a number on it and will know whether I have something to worry about.Attachments

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              #31 Aug 26, 2010So that's where I stand today. I have a few things left to do:

              - I'd like to add more sound deadening. My current plan is some stall mat rubber over the front floor and tunnel, under the carpet. I also came across silentrunning.us/
              - Shift boot; I'm thinking double wall/heavy rubber, with a leather overboot, and a housing around it that will cover the carpet holes and contain my switch for the tcase air shift.
              - air dryer; I don't want freezing issues come wintertime.
              - rearrange the passenger seat inboard slider so it can go forward again.

              Otherwise, aside from rebuilding the divorced 205 I got and putting 1410 yokes on it, and dealing with the CAD, I'm pretty much all set.

              I really can't wait to tow through the PA hills with it. With two rigs on my 36' trailer I often gross around 23,000 - now with the trans weight gain probably closer to 23,500 - so the closer ranges will be very, very nice. I'm rarely loosing gears now that I'm accustomed to the different shift pattern, and I'm really enjoying driving it.Last Minute Motorsports
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              2,446 Posts #32 Aug 26, 2010Cool you found the RTOO !!!! I wasn't aware of that one. Ratios look nice! Should work excellent for what you are doing with it!
              I know guys that would have left the shift lever that long !!!

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                #8

                GONRACIN

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                6,405 Posts #33 Aug 26, 2010There is much win in this thread......epic swap man, i'd LOVE to try that....Doc - "Tackle me in a Walmart and its game on, I will beat the shit out of you with a toaster oven."SaveShare
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                30 Posts #34 Aug 26, 2010Great work...
                should have used my Dyanamat!!!






                Nice Job Mike.. glad to finally see pics!!2012 WK2 SRT8 - 1988 YJ Sahara - 1974 SIII 109" - 1949 CJ3a -SaveShare
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                Like Mr. Mindless

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                5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #35 Aug 26, 2010It's all over the doghouse, Arie. Thanks again!

                Like we talked about, I just need something with a bit more mass for the mid frequency noise.Last Minute Motorsports
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                koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
                Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
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                Reply Quote TN-D90

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                2,277 Posts #36 Aug 26, 2010 (Edited)Look at lizard skin, then cover that with dynamat. I'd spray the floors and back of cab, then layer on sound proofing and make sure you do the doors.1989 Jeep YJ- "Black Label"

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                Likemontecarlo31

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                10,638 Posts #37 Aug 26, 2010
                TN-D90 said:
                Look at lizard skin, then cover that with dynamat. I'd spray the floors and back of cab, then layer on sound proofing and make sure you do the doors.
                What about just line-x on the entire floor pan after you seal it up? then put the carpet and seats back in?
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                1,565 Posts #38 Aug 26, 2010I would definitely put the heaviest, thickest stuff you can find on it. I don't think it's a real subtle problem like soundproofing a regular car - no matter what you do there's a monstrous collection of spinning gears right there, and the engine is producing a huge amount of heat. I'd do as much rubberized undercoating/thick-squishy-type bedliner on both sides as you can, with reflective foil insulation on the bottom of the truck/doghouse and a ton of carpet padding on top.SaveShare
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                2,781 Posts #39 Aug 27, 2010This is one of those projects that I can't keep out of my head, I'm just not sure how well it'd fit in a first gen... I'm going to fix the 'rag one last time and if it dies again, I will be going 13 speed.96 F350 XL CC PSD/5 speed 4x4... Family hauler in the making
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                2,277 Posts #40 Aug 27, 2010
                montecarlo31 said:
                What about just line-x on the entire floor pan after you seal it up? then put the carpet and seats back in?
                I would either dynamat then spray line x or the other way around.....it really doesn't provide much in soundproofing1989 Jeep YJ- "Black Label"

                www.Dixiecrawlers.com

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                  #9

                  85blue4runner

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                  4,040 Posts #41 • Aug 27, 2010 (Edited)linex is NOT a sound deadening material... if you want a spray use something like Lizard Cool (EDIT: http://www.lizardskin.com) they are in AZ and there is an insulating product and a sound deadening product.

                  Sludge is also easy to work with in open areas like that (http://www.secondskinaudio.com/sound...rum-sludge.php), but you really need to find the correct dampener for the noise you are hearing.. A thick heavy/dense material will only deaden low frequencies. So you may need several types of materials in layers to effectively combat the range of frequencies you are hearing..

                  .03


                  Mr. Mindless

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                  5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #42 • Aug 27, 2010Thanks, Blue.

                  Right now it's actually a little quieter than stock in high range low split, but in OD split and in low range there's quite a bit more gear noise, and that what I'll be aiming to kill. Once I get a real shift boot on it I'm sure it will be much better. Since I have to pull the passenger seat to deal with the slider anyway, I'll be adding more material under the carpet. I think what would be ideal is a layer of similar material to what is stock on the firewall, which is about 1" of open cell foam backed by heavy rubber about 1/16" thick. The only down side to that is the open cell foam soaks up any spills or leaks - though the carpet pad does the same.

                  If I can find a way to cleanly bond something like stall mat material, I think what I'll do is ditch the carpet forward of the seats where it now fits so poorly, and make a new rubber-foam-rubber sandwich fitted to the new floor pan. I'm not sure what I could use at home to make a nicely fitted floor since it's full of compund curves. Maybe there's a good durable tape that would put up with the heat and wet and dirt exposure...

                  A thought that occurs is a heavy spray, glue foam to it, and spray over the foam, but there are two issues: I need the doghouse to be removable if I ever need to pull the transmission, and I'd bet most spray products would melt or be absorbed by an open cell foam.

                  Maybe this heavy noise absorbtion floor thing deserves a dedicated gen 4x4 topic.


                  Joe_88k5

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                  340 Posts #43 • Aug 29, 2010Awesome job Mike, looks great.Joe

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                  566 Posts #44 • Aug 29, 2010
                  Harold Phipps said:
                  Cool you found the RTOO !!!! I wasn't aware of that one. Ratios look nice! Should work excellent for what you are doing with it!
                  I know guys that would have left the shift lever that long !!!
                  on mine i had to cut a foot off it the shifter to keep it from hitting the ceiling. anyway very cool, i wish i had gone with an 18 double over but 13 is ok. the reason why 18 is better is that off road in sand and other situations you may need more momentum than the gear your in allows but you'll never make it into the next gear if you try to shift. you clutch setup is nice, i drove it for months with no trans tunnel using blankets if anything. i still have to wear ear plugs when i drive. anyway like i was saying i drove it for month stepping directly on the throwout arm with my left foot. it sucked but i tried several methods of actuating it but finally had to go with a pneumatic cylinder. it sucks because there is absolutely no feel to the clutch so i'll sit at a stop light for about 10 seconds sometimes slowly letting up on it waiting for it to engage hoping i dont stall it out. as for the starter why didnt you get a flywheel housing with a driver side starter? i got that and the tranny from goodies truck parts. my starter is a pos. it broke the nose cone off withing a couple months then i got a new nose cone and in about a month it wouldnt start unless i beat it with a hammer. i ended up taking it apart and cleaning it all up and a month later i was having to beat on it again. i got another as a spare and when i couldnt get the old one to work at all i swapped them out and the damn thing started the engine and kept going until i disconnected the battery. i offset the engine as much to the passenger side as i could and was able to reuse the 2 piece front driveshaft by dropping the carrier bearing. that put the exhaust a little to close to my ac and i was seriously considering putting a starter on the passenger side as an emergency backup but theres no room. i know theres air starters for the b-series but i dont know if my air supply could handle it. a coffman starter would be awesome. anyway when i first started driving it i had servral portable air tanks in the bed in case i lost pressure. luckily my engine came out of a school bus so it had the compressor instead of the vacuum pump but i put a air tool quick connect on the tranny so i could hook it up to an external air source if necessary. i thought about getting a miniature power tank sort of thing from lowes for nail guns but never did. i would definitely recommend that for you with an electric compressor, after all anything electric will eventually fail. i didnt put an air dryer on it but i probably should. i dont need it around here but i dont want any problems when i travel. i also have the clutch lever sticking through the floor in case i have to manually actuate it. as for sound proofing i put down some peel n seal which is like dyna mat but is a lot cheaper and is available at lowes. then i have some padding like what comes stock which i'm going to put down then put mass loaded vinyl or mlv over that then carpet. not sure what i'm going to do about carpet with my large trans tunnel. i also made it removable so i think i may just cut the sound proofing and carpet and just overlap it around the doghouse. for the t case i just made a bracket that comes off the top tranny bolts and bends down 90* then the shifters mount on a bolt welded to the bracket. gives me high/low front/rear/4 wheel drive with a crawl ratio around 98:1. also i drove it for quite awhile with the tranny just hanging off the back of the engine but eventually put a c channel cross member in with homemade bushings. i never thought about a leaf spring type thing. did you cut your front cross member out? i did since i built a new one up front for the engine mount then had the other mounts coming off the flywheel housing. anyway it looks like you have everything under control but if you have any questions feel free to ask. i never did make a build thread for mine but i do have a photo album on facebook of the work i've doneF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                  LikeNnightcrawlers

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                  Joined May 1, 2006
                  1,256 Posts #45 • Aug 29, 2010Link to said photo album? scotty
                  85 grand waggoneer(what's left of it)
                  77 scout II truggy
                  84 chevy home made crewcab

                  Delightfully Tacky,Yet UnrefinedSaveShare
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                  LikeCchrisevans2645

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                  Joined Oct 8, 2009
                  566 Posts #46 • Aug 29, 2010here it is
                  http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3&l=db15bc8e56F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winch


                  Mr. Mindless

                  Premium Member


                  Joined Nov 9, 2003
                  5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #47 • Aug 29, 2010Wow... I think I'll stick with a real pedal clutch and sealed doghouse It's bad enough just having the vent next to the shifter and the cab smelling a bit of gear oil after it sits - but with windows up and the fan on high it blows the smell out quickly.

                  I'd like to put a strategic shutoff in place in my air system, and a hookup for a CO2 bottle for emergency air so I can at least lock it in high range to get myself mobile if something goes wrong.

                  I think I'll be all right with front shaft clearance but it may be too long to go single piece - and in that case with an offset carrier it'll be cake. I'm thinking of looking for a 1" coil spacer in front to help make up for the 500# weight gain, I seem to be bottoming out a bit more often than I used to.

                  I had no further trans issues on the way back to NY, so all-in-all it was a successful ~2200 mile shakedown run with just the initial air system issues. I will definitely be keeping an eye on transmission temps when I start to tow with it, after a couple hours at speed, it'll sit at 225-235˚F. I think it's a combination of much more limited airflow than stock and my use of cheaper non-synthetic gear oil. It takes about 250 miles to get to that temp, and only with ambient temps in the 80s, when it was cooler it did run cooler (215˚*or so in 65˚ ambients).

                  I wasn't able to get the driver side starter, but good info that they are out there somewhere. Others may want to look for that, it would avoid the starter rewiring and probably the exhaust modifications - though neither were too painful for me.




                  My short list right now is a shifter boot, followed up with the seat rail mods and sealing up a couple exhaust leaks that have a soot stain coming out of my front fender. Then it'll be time to look at mounting the tcase, getting 1410 yokes for it, and looking at JensenKennels' parts list for air shifter bits.





                  Comment


                    #10
                    chrisevans2645

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                    Joined Oct 8, 2009
                    566 Posts #48 • Aug 29, 2010well my setup works ok now that i'm used to it but it still is a pain. as far as front end weight i've been planning on putting air bags up front. they make a kit but since mine was 2 wheel drive and is now 4 wheel drive i'm going to have to make my own. i still havent finished my exhaust. i want to get a 2nd gen exhaust manifold then run a 4" exhaust with a pacbrake. i plan on actuating it via an old school range shift button that clamps on the shift lever. i just need time, money, cooler weather, and a little more motivation. i'm also thinking of raising my bench seat up an inch or 2, putting a hinge on the front and putting air bags under the rear of the seat to make it an air ride bench seat. that plus the welding i still need to do on the dash is why i havent finished the sound proofing



                    Harold Phipps

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                    Joined Feb 19, 2009
                    2,446 Posts #49 • Aug 30, 2010There is an isolator you can install in the stick. Sometimes that overdrive whine comes up the shifter, you just cut some stick out and weld it in. It has some rubber isolator material between the steel pieces you weld on, kinda like potted in a piece of tube. I think we got ours (years ago) from Peterbilt.
                    I think if you did like a 2" body lift, it would make some of the trans fit/ tunnel size issues go away, and may give some room for air circulation. (That said, I hate body lifts!, but could work in your favor in this case).
                    Just some ideas for those considering the swap.
                    Can you get an 18 speed in the 95 series? Isn't the 125 somewhat larger physically?

                    chrisevans2645

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                    Joined Oct 8, 2009
                    566 Posts #50 • Aug 30, 2010well i have seen one 18 speed double over but i dont know if it was stock. i've heard that people will swap 7th and 8th gear to create a double overdrive in 18 speeds which i guess is also called a georgia overdrive. (yes i know that generally refers to shifting into neutral going down a hill but i've heard that it's also applied to this). rtoo 9513 breaks down to Roadranger Twin countershaft 950 lbft (or is it ftlb?) 13 speed for those that dont know. i guess they were mainly intended for the detroit 8v71. at any rate the main problem would probably be finding an sae#2 clutch housing for a heavier duty transmission. by the way on one of the earlier post theres a spec sheet that shows an 1.75" input shaft. mine came with a 2"





                    Mr. Mindless

                    Premium Member


                    Joined Nov 9, 2003
                    5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #51 • Aug 30, 20101.75 & 2" inputs are both available for the 9513. 1680 and 1710 output yokes as well.

                    I have a 1.75" input and a 1710 yoke.


                    The shifter isolator sounds totally legit, I may have to investigate that. It's quite possible some of the overdrive noise is the harmonics coming through the shifter. I can tell you that with the windows up it's quieter for the noise that reflects off the pavement... I'm sure it would keep it cooler as well - but the roadranger knob doesn't get warm so that really doesn't bother me.

                    I'm not sure if the 11xxx and 14xxx series are larger or not, I didn't take a tape to anything, and sitting on the rack they all just look "huge". I don't think a #2 bell would be hard to come by though, most that were sitting around looked to be #2s not #1s.

                    I did some reading on the "georgia overdrive" swap but could not find anything definitive and solid. I was really after the tall highway gears, if I could have gotten them out of a more common trans (like an RTO9513) I could have saved a pile of money, but being new to this realm and not being able to find solid info I pulled the trigger on the sure thing. If anyone can dig up solid info, not just hearsay, that would make a nice addition to this thread.

                    roundhouse

                    Premium Member


                    Joined Feb 1, 2003
                    7,598 Posts #52 • Aug 30, 2010 (Edited)Cool transplant.

                    You;ll get used to shifting without the clutch, just use starting off.


                    My Early bronco had some heat issues, and I used the foil insulation from the doghouse of a short hood class 8., and I also used the rubber mat from under the cab of a COE and I used the rubber mat from under the carpet in a Pete or KW or something.

                    I laid down the foil first, then the COE insulation, then the rubber foam.

                    FWIW, it would have been alot easier to just get a used class 8!
                    They've gotten really cheap with the depression and last years $5 a gal diesel.





                    Mr. Mindless

                    Premium Member


                    Joined Nov 9, 2003
                    5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #53 • Aug 30, 2010Hmm, stealing truck insulation is a great idea.

                    And clutches are already just for starting. That took about twice through the gears. Unfortunately with the short throw it's tough to exit one gear without tapping the opposite gear before revs match. That'll get better with practice. It's already significantly improved.



                    supersize75k5

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                    Joined Apr 14, 2004
                    3,745 Posts #54 • Aug 31, 2010
                    Machinos said:
                    I got an old 5-speed Spicer for my '90 Dodge but haven't been able to find a cheap flywheel housing (or flywheel for that matter). I have a #3 housing which is more than enough room for the kind of clutch I'd need, but the Spicer clutch housing is #2 and I don't think I'll be able to find a #3 for it. I haven't even tried calling a big truck junkyard since I just can't imagine that having the parts pulled would be anywhere near my price range (I got the trans itself for $50).
                    My g/f father has been gears and manuals in medium and heavy duty trucks for years. Not promising anything, but he is pretty savvy when it comes to this stuff and seems to have plenty of parts or contacts with so many years in the biz.

                    Ask for allan and tell him shawn sent you.

                    the gear shop in phoenix
                    602-437-1476




                    heavychevyII

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                    Joined Dec 9, 2007
                    595 Posts #55 • Aug 31, 2010Coolest mod ever. Can't wait to see it in person.






                    NitroRClover

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                    Joined Apr 29, 2003
                    1,489 Posts #56 • Aug 31, 2010Nice work! I might be PMing you with some questions in the near future... going to put an RT6609A into my '95 dodge.



                    dieselfuel

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                    Joined Jan 7, 2006
                    94 Posts #57 • Aug 31, 2010so cool, awesome job!!

                    we need video of this thing running through all the gears.89 GMC Suburban overlander/multi purpose build. 83 Toyota crawler build
                    IG: onetongmc


                    Mr. Mindless

                    Premium Member


                    Joined Nov 9, 2003
                    5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #58 • Sep 1, 2010
                    NitroRClover said:
                    going to put an RT6609A into my '95 dodge.
                    Can you get that with an SAE #3 bell instead of the #2? That would make the floor mods much less invasive, #3 is probably roughly the same size clutch housing as the stock bell needs. Most of the Alisons laying around at Casey's were SAE#3....

                    dieselfuel said:
                    we need video of this thing running through all the gears.
                    that could probably be arranged. I've split through all the top end, but I've yet to use L or 2. The L-1-2-3 might take a little practice, or a big load.




                    Mr. Mindless

                    Premium Member


                    Joined Nov 9, 2003
                    5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #59 • Sep 1, 2010So, I'm forming a plan for the 4x4.

                    I'm looking through the air shift thread for a baseline. I'll be able to get away much cheaper and simpler since I have no need for low range with 12:1 low gears in a non-crawler rig, so I'll just be shifting the front rail of the NP205 between N and H, and not need to stack actuators for a 3 position ram setup.

                    I'll use a single air toggle like these
                    http://www.clippard.com/catalog/Page 112.pdf

                    to actuate a 1/2" throw double acting ram like this
                    http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_cy...sku=UDR-12-1/2

                    I think I'll get two small regulators, and tee off the ram actuator lines to send 5-10PSI to the CAD.
                    http://www.clippard.com/catalog/Page 140.pdf

                    I'll rewire the 4x4 indicator light to run through the CAD switch and the tcase switch, so I'll know when both engage. With a setup like this I think it'll be good to know when everything is fully engaged and I can safely apply power. I need to replace the CAD switch harness anyway since a shredding serpentine belt ripped it apart when my AC compressor seized.


                    I'll replace the bushings and reuse the stock mount setup on the case, I'll just need to run two cross bars on the frame to hang the two mounts from.

                    I can go about 65" long on a one piece 4" 1410 driveshaft according to this RPM calculator based on my tire size, gears, and 80mph top speed.
                    http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?hvtss~decrits~warn1

                    Hopefully my fuel tank lets me get that short on the rear section, I think I'll be alright but I haven't measured yet. Once I get the rough case location and angle set, I'll be able to look at case clocking and front driveshaft placement. I'd love to go single piece, but we'll see. If I can get the rear to 65" the front will be about the same. The lowest I'm willing to go on that, critical RPM wise, is probably 60mph. Using 2.5" 1350, that gets me about 60mph, and that's fine by me for the front.

                    Aside from that it just needs 1410 yokes for input and rear output, and a couple fresh seals.



                    chrisevans2645

                    Registered


                    Joined Oct 8, 2009
                    566 Posts #60 • Sep 1, 2010i have a video on face book of shifting my truck. i used to start in 4th but due to the touchiness of the clutch i now start out in 3rd. it's nice having lower gears for hills and offroad though. i use granny low quite often though not on the road. personally i enjoy having around a 98:1 crawl ratio because it allows for tight maneuvering

                    Comment


                      #11
                      #63 • Sep 7, 2010I had a better brainwave on this over the weekend:

                      instead of teeing off and running regulated low pressure to one side or the other, I'll tee off one side to an air actuated spool valve and switch the vacuum as stock does, in parallel with the double acting ram.

                      One MPA-3p pilot actuator
                      http://www.clippard.com/store/displa...asp?sku=MPA-3p

                      And an MJV-4 4-way spring return valve. http://www.clippard.com/store/displa....asp?sku=MJV-4

                      I'll connect the vacuum to the inlet on the MJV-4, and outlets to each of the CAD ports, and both exhausts to the stock exhaust line.

                      then I'll supply pressure to it to switch vacuum to lock the CAD, and the spring return will have vacuum supplied to the disconnected side.

                      more better.

                      -------

                      Also got some news from the guy who bought my NV4500.... Apparently I was even more up against its limits than I thought: not only did I break three teeth of 5th, but my input shaft was on the verge of breaking. It wasn't something you could see by eye, but he was having issues with his single disc clutch disengaging, and when checked with a straight edge found this:






                      His trans guy said the input shaft p/n shows it was from a reputable company, not some cheap crap part... I guess I'm doubly glad to have a 1.75" input now instead of a 1.25"! That shaft would not have lived much longer if reinstalled, I'm certain.

                      I'm not even putting down that much power, still stock injectors and stock turbo an a quarter million mile 12v with 4x GSK, adjusted star wheel, and ground fuel plate.... I should only be around 300hp... weird.




                      #64 • Sep 7, 2010Oh, I also got everything sealed up over the weekend with a full filler panel and real shift boot. No more smells, and much quieter than the towel. I think when I'm not split over it's actually quieter than stock, and it's totally tolerable when split out.

                      I also had my first tow - very short, and very light, (about 7 miles with a single TJ on the trailer) but enough confirmation that L-R is fantastic and perfect for backing, and that the close gears are just to die for...



                      NitroRClover

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                      Joined Apr 29, 2003
                      1,489 Posts #65 • Sep 7, 2010
                      Mr. Mindless said:
                      Can you get that with an SAE #3 bell instead of the #2? That would make the floor mods much less invasive, #3 is probably roughly the same size clutch housing as the stock bell needs. Most of the Alisons laying around at Casey's were SAE#3....




                      that could probably be arranged. I've split through all the top end, but I've yet to use L or 2. The L-1-2-3 might take a little practice, or a big load.

                      Not sure about the #3 bell, it came with a #2. I bought the trans with everything that bolted to the engine to keep it simple - it was bolted to a 5.9 so I won't have to do any piecing together.



                      chrisevans2645

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                      Joined Oct 8, 2009
                      566 Posts #66 • Sep 7, 2010i know you can get an sae#3 flywheel housing for the engine side easy but the allison automatic is going to be your only choice. the rt 9513 only comes with sae#1 and #2 clutch housing. and the sae#2 clutch housing is kinda tight. i had to chisel some of the aluminum off in order to have enough room to get a socket on some the nuts. also theres 2 bolts that i didn't notice in there and i couldnt figure out why i was losing so much oil. i ended up having to pull the tranny back out to discover the problem. that was not fun at all






                      Mr. Mindless

                      Premium Member


                      Joined Nov 9, 2003
                      5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #67 • Sep 8, 2010
                      chrisevans2645 said:
                      the sae#2 clutch housing is kinda tight. i had to chisel some of the aluminum off in order to have enough room to get a socket on some the nuts.

                      huh? tight where/against what? The only clearance issue I have is the starter. I'd say try to find a driver side starter setup if you're going this route.










                      chrisevans2645

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                      Joined Oct 8, 2009
                      566 Posts #68 • Sep 9, 2010inside. the tranny has 6 studs and 4 bolts(iirc) or something like that to hold the clutch housing on and in order to get the nuts on the studs i had to clearance the clutch housing then clearance it a little more o fit a socket. maybe i got one that was just cast a little funky or something. i never did bother taking pics of that but it wasnt a huge deal.











                      jeepgif

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                      Joined Feb 20, 2006
                      640 Posts #69 • Sep 16, 2010wow thats a lot of tranny !! cant wait to see it.








                      Mr. Mindless

                      Premium Member


                      Joined Nov 9, 2003
                      5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #70 • Jan 23, 2011Just a quick update on this. I didn't get to the transfer case yet, but when I R&R'd the trans as a part of my motor swap (12v water jacket cracked, emptied cooling into oil pan. found cheap low mile 24v and swapped my p-pump on), I added a layer of thick rubber under the carpet and it's much quieter! I still need to do a filler piece around the shift boot but everything is much quieter. To the point that my breezy/rattly door seal and hinge are now annoying me into getting a bushing kit!

                      Still a pleasure to drive.






                      montecarlo31

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                      Joined Aug 6, 2008
                      10,638 Posts #71 • Jan 23, 2011
                      Mr. Mindless said:
                      Just a quick update on this. I didn't get to the transfer case yet, but when I R&R'd the trans as a part of my motor swap (12v water jacket cracked, emptied cooling into oil pan. found cheap low mile 24v and swapped my p-pump on), I added a layer of thick rubber under the carpet and it's much quieter! I still need to do a filler piece around the shift boot but everything is much quieter. To the point that my breezy/rattly door seal and hinge are now annoying me into getting a bushing kit!

                      Still a pleasure to drive.

                      Get the transfer case in and hit the mud...I bet that thing will sling some mud and tow a trailer.

                      Any change in fuel economy?


                      Mr. Mindless

                      Premium Member


                      Joined Nov 9, 2003
                      5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #72 • Jan 23, 2011....mumble mumble fucking hate mud....


                      if by sling mud you mean find the bottom, sure. weighs 8500# now with a full tank and toolbox.


                      economy is definitely up. it was down for 2 months with the motor swap, I think that's already looking to be a bigger difference than the trans. I have a console full of fuel receipts that need to be entered in my spreadsheet, maybe some trend will show up but there was relatively little time with the 12v/13sp combo, she broke down 10/26 give or take a couple days, that's only 2 months.




                      chrisevans2645

                      Registered


                      Joined Oct 8, 2009
                      566 Posts #73 • Jan 23, 2011i think that the dual countershafts and dual overdrives might suck down fuel economy because the engine has to spin all those gears. i don't bother keeping track of my fuel mileage but seat of the pants feel tells me that 7th direct (1:1) is where the engine is happiest power wise.
                      as far as mud you had better get going and be in the right gear before you hit it because without syncros you won't be able to shift once you're in the mud/sand/snowF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winch






                      Mr. Mindless

                      Premium Member


                      Joined Nov 9, 2003
                      5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #74 • Jan 23, 2011What I love most is just being able to always be in the right gear. I can keep it around 1700-1900 whether I'm doing 20, 40, 45, 60.... and I don't get out of that torque happy range until about 70mph. I was thinking about that yesterday - how I used to have to spin the thing at 2500rpm to do 70+. I don't miss that.

                      I'm sure between the extra rotating mass, the extra 500#, and the thicker gear oil it eats a lot of it. Still my favorite mod to the tow rig. Just have to get that tcase in it...






                      chrisevans2645

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                      Joined Oct 8, 2009
                      566 Posts #75 • Jan 23, 2011
                      Mr. Mindless said:
                      What I love most is just being able to always be in the right gear. I can keep it around 1700-1900 whether I'm doing 20, 40, 45, 60.... and I don't get out of that torque happy range until about 70mph. I was thinking about that yesterday - how I used to have to spin the thing at 2500rpm to do 70+. I don't miss that.

                      I'm sure between the extra rotating mass, the extra 500#, and the thicker gear oil it eats a lot of it. Still my favorite mod to the tow rig. Just have to get that tcase in it...

                      same here. i usually try to keep it around 1500rpm but that's probably a little too low. i think i'm around 19-2000rpm at 75
                      i can't stand going that fast without ear plugs though











                      Mr. Mindless

                      Premium Member


                      Joined Nov 9, 2003
                      5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #76 • Jan 23, 2011maybe you should consider adding some polish to your install...

                      mine's not cell phone conversation quiet just yet but it's close.



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                        #12
                        chrisevans2645

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                        Joined Oct 8, 2009
                        566 Posts #77 Jan 24, 2011
                        Mr. Mindless said:
                        maybe you should consider adding some polish to your install...

                        mine's not cell phone conversation quiet just yet but it's close.
                        i'm working on it but i just snapped an axle and have other stuff going on. plus it sucks being brokeF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                        LikeLlurchseesu

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                        Joined Apr 13, 2008
                        1,150 Posts #78 Jul 26, 2011If you don't mind me asking, what was the initial price of the 13 speed? Just so we can get idea of what to spend on one.SaveShare
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                        LikeCchrisevans2645

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                        Joined Oct 8, 2009
                        566 Posts #79 Jul 26, 2011i got mine for about $950 plus shipping from goodies truck parts. it wasn't rebuilt but they had inspected it and replaced external parts like hoses and the regulator. i was lucky to find one so cheap and shipping was reasonable too. they also had a flywheel housing for $200ish and i found a #2 clutch housing on ebay though i don't remember how much. also it shipped without the output yoke/flange or the shifterF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                        Like Mr. Mindless

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                        Joined Nov 9, 2003
                        5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #80 Jul 26, 2011My RTOO9513 was a full rebulid with warranty, complete swap all bought at once set me back $3750. Clutch, trans, SAE clutch housing, flywheel, ujoint, starter, some other odds and ends...

                        Couldn't find exactly what I was looking for on Craigslist since I was set on the double OD. If I'd been able to settle for a RTO there were a half dozen in reasonable distance with low miles around a grand to 1500. Then I'd still have had to scrounge the clutch housing, flywheel, etc.


                        Insulating the shifter stalk made a huge difference. Still need to do another nice rubber mat on the floor and maybe double boot the shifter and it will be nearly stock quiet. Nearly.

                        Comment


                          #13

                          Diesel_Dirk

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                          Joined Jan 20, 2008
                          325 Posts #81 • Jul 27, 2011
                          chrisevans2645 said:
                          as far as mud you had better get going and be in the right gear before you hit it because without syncros you won't be able to shift once you're in the mud/sand/snow
                          Not without practice anyway... my build: http://ovo.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=867SaveShare
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                          LikeSsuperglock

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                          Joined Jul 29, 2006
                          248 Posts #82 • Jul 27, 2011The large fuller trans should have 50wt oil in them, If you are running 80-90 it might help with heat and drag. People also need to remember the in the 1970s the big rigs pulling 80,000lbs were only using engines that made only 900 or so lbft of tourqe. that is were the 950 lbft trans were used. We have a gear shop in Wa state that my Dad started in 1982 and I remember building lots of these. Then things changed to the 12513 them 14613 and up, The newwer ones I see now are 18918 and even a few 22918.

                          Happy shiftingSaveShare
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                          LikeMmike_belben

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                          Joined Jan 1, 2007
                          2,748 Posts #83 • Feb 8, 2012great thread. i just made a deal on a 9513 that couldnt be refused, but i dont think i wanna hack the dodge apart.

                          unloaded local driving.. you guys taking off in 3rd and 4th and then hitting every gear, skipping every other, splitting every other, etc? whats a typical 0 to 45mph look like?

                          at 70-75 mph, is 13th a coasting gear or will the truck still pull a long grade with the .62 overdrive? (i have 3.54s and 235/85R16 on my dually)God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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                          LikeCchrisevans2645

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                          566 Posts #84 • Feb 8, 2012in my case i used to start out in 4th but now that i have a pneumatic setup to actuate the clutch i start in 3rd. sometimes i skip 4th, in fact sometimes it's easier to skip 4th. i rarely ever use 5th over, and if i'm in a hurry i sometimes skip 6th over. as for climbing in 8th over situation dictates. at 75mph it does good but at 65 i usually downshift to keep i egt's in check, depending on the hill. for example i can climb union pass from bullhead to kingman in 8th direct at 55mph. my engine is a stock 1st gen with the timing bumped up and the afc rotated but unground. no fuel screw adjustments.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                          1,565 Posts #85 • Feb 8, 2012"pneumatic setup to actuate the clutch" - what's that?SaveShare
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                          566 Posts #86 • Feb 8, 2012i couldn't figure out any other way to do it so i used a treadle valve for air brakes and a pneumatic ram to push on the arm coming off the clutch fork. it's nice in that you can push the clutch pedal down with your pinky, it sucks in that there is no feel to it at all.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                          1,131 Posts #87 • Feb 8, 2012Just curious if the treadle allows you to feather the clutch the way you would with a manual setup ? Does it have enough "feel" to do that ?I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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                          1,196 Posts #88 • Feb 9, 2012
                          me2 said:
                          Just curious if the treadle allows you to feather the clutch the way you would with a manual setup ? Does it have enough "feel" to do that ?
                          Nah, there's no way to get any feel out of that set up. But if it works it work (insert thumbs up). Sounds pretty cool.. Especially when ya start getting older
                          chrisevans2645 said:
                          it's nice in that you can push the clutch pedal down with your pinky, it sucks in that there is no feel to it at all.
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                          566 Posts #89 • Feb 9, 2012i can feather it a little but i have to do it visually. i have a rod coming off the crossbar and it sticks up through the floor. the main reason for that was as a limp home measure if the treadle valve or something went out but i use it as a visual indication of where the clutch is in addition to the sound of the engine.

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                            Machinos

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                            1,565 Posts #90 • Feb 9, 2012Haha, that rules.SaveShare
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                            2,748 Posts #91 • Feb 9, 2012so when you step on the clutch, are you applying air to a cylinder or releasing air from the cylinder? im not familiar with treadle valves.. but wonder if its possible to use a restrictor, adjustable muffler or some other form of fill/bleed orifice to give an adjustable speed to the cylinder motion. this way you dont get feedback but atleast a timed delay.

                            ..lift the pedal and its eases into engagement over a 3 second span sort of thing.

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                            566 Posts #92 • Feb 9, 2012it applies pressure. i tried using a needle valve to do that but it didn't work well. now i have a worn out shock absorber on there that has minimal effect on release but helps slow it down a little on engagement. keeps me from stalling it at least.




                            F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                            113 Posts #93 • Feb 10, 2012The foot treadle is a pretty good idea. I bet an air throttle valve would give you alot more control. We have a couple trucks at work that use air for the auxillary throttle( crane trucks). They seem to be very easy to deal with.87 Toyota, 4.3, TH350, Dana 300(4 to 1), 60/70 welded, linked and coiled, 6.17's, 44" TSL's.SaveShare
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                            4,040 Posts #94 • Feb 10, 2012if you used an air cylinder of some type to actuate the clutch why would you need a pedal at all?

                            couldnt you just have a switch on the gear lever or maybe something like an old high beam switch on the floor to hit with your left foot? Hit the switch the clutch disengages (under pressure) hit it again and the pressure releases slowly and engages the clutch...

                            seems pretty damn cool to me.SaveShare
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                            1,619 Posts #95 • Feb 10, 2012Are there any load reactive hydraulic valves? My buggies steering is full hydro, and has some feedback feel. Maybe that would be a way to get some feel out of the system?SaveShare
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                            566 Posts #96 • Feb 12, 2012thanks for the suggestions, i didn't mean to steal the thread though. that air vale sounds interesting, i'll look into that. i was looking at hydraulic before i went air but it was a bit much. i've actually broken several clutch brakes before i regulated the air pressure down. as far as a switch i suppose you could use a trolley valve or something but a on/off switch would give you no control or feel. with the treadle valve you can control the clutch position though not particularly smoothly or accurately. for example if i can see my clutch lever i can let off the pedal slowly while counting to 5 or so.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                            1,150 Posts #97 • Feb 12, 2012Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. While I'm not big on mechanical clutches it just seems like it would have been so much simpler to go that route.

                            How much would it have been to go with a normal hydro setup? Or are hydraulic big clutch parts just too pricey still?SaveShare
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                            1,131 Posts #98 • Feb 12, 2012
                            chrisevans2645 said:

                            What's up with the red bottle ?

                            Could you tell us again what clutch you are using and why you can't use a regular hydraulic linkage ?

                            I'm not criticizing, I'm trying to learn.I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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                            566 Posts #99 • Feb 12, 2012 (Edited)i'm using a pull type 14" dual disk ceramic clutch. i tried figuring out how to go hydraulic but couldn't get enough travel. i know that there are trucks that use them but the only style i've found mounts under the clutch housing which would reduce ground clearance

                            edit: the red bottle is my steering reservoirF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                            11,780 Posts #100 • Feb 12, 2012 (Edited)Get a couple little 6" travel .5-1" bore hydraulic rams and work out a hydraulic loop between them. Same sorta thing, all the travel you could want, and good pedal feel so long as you bleed the system well enough.

                            http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
                            If you can deal with the excess length.

                            http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
                            If you can figure out levers and such to increase the travel.

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                              566 Posts #101 • Feb 12, 2012well that would work but i would need a master cylinder capable of pushing enough fluid. maybe if i used a brake master cylinder with both ports going to the slave?F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                              11,780 Posts #102 • Feb 12, 2012
                              chrisevans2645 said:
                              well that would work but i would need a master cylinder capable of pushing enough fluid. maybe if i used a brake master cylinder with both ports going to the slave?
                              Use one of the same cylinders. You wouldn't have a reservoir, but you could just make it a closed system with a T at the highest point, put a ball valve on one leg of it and a reservoir behind that.SaveShare
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                              566 Posts #103 • Feb 12, 2012i guess i could make that work, just have to mount it real close to the pedal so i would have enough stroke. damn, i wish i had all these ideas a couple years ago, i guess maybe i should have made a build thread of my own...F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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                              1,619 Posts #104 • Feb 13, 2012Anyone ever use a hydroboost brake master assembly to operate a big clutch? My wifes chief complaint about my old power stroke was the clutch effort. With thoughts of stepping up to a big boy tranny she is quite fearful that she won't be able to push it in.
                              I've never driven a manual transmission big truck. What is the clutch effort like?SaveShare
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                              29,929 Posts #105 • Feb 13, 2012The clutch effort on my uhaul with a big spicer is slightly worse than your average pickup truck, but it's also fully mechanical.

                              I think with properly setup master/slave ratios you could make it not any worse than a pickup truck, maybe betterl, without the use of a booster.Electricity is really just organized lightning.SaveShare
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                              1,150 Posts #106 • Feb 13, 2012All the big mechanical clutch trucks I've driven had a ton of throw to have enough leverage to push on. None were hard to push down but I hated how much high up off of the floor they were. Although the clutch was more or less identical to driving a chevy with a SM465 or something similar. By comparison, the hydro clutch prostar I drove, I didn't even have to raise my foot off of the floor to push it. It was like driving a car. No effort at all. Loved it.SaveShare
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                              37,102 Posts #107 • Feb 13, 2012
                              87manche said:
                              The clutch effort on my uhaul with a big spicer is slightly worse than your average pickup truck, but it's also fully mechanical.
                              My new pull-type clutch is just a little easier than the old push-type clutch.


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                              2,085 Posts #108 • Feb 13, 2012
                              lurchseesu said:
                              All the big mechanical clutch trucks I've driven had a ton of throw to have enough leverage to push on. None were hard to push down but I hated how much high up off of the floor they were. Although the clutch was more or less identical to driving a chevy with a SM465 or something similar. By comparison, the hydro clutch prostar I drove, I didn't even have to raise my foot off of the floor to push it. It was like driving a car. No effort at all. Loved it.
                              x2 that

                              the mech. clutch of my Pete "379" (10 speed, N14 Cummins) is actually very easy to push.... what needed a lot of "getting used to" was lifting your leg completely off the floor to "stump" down on the high clutch pedal.

                              if i know i`m going to do some slow speed driving (like turning around in the yard and backing into the garage) i usually arrest&lock the "float" on the seat and "bump up" the air(seat) to the upper stop.... imho that makes it a lot more comfortable to use the clutch ... you have also more "feel" this way (all the torque of the N14 sure makes the Pete jump like a jackass if your clutch engagement is careless )

                              good thing is you hardly ever use the clutch anymore (on a non-syncro trans) if you get used to "floating" the gears"Steels gonna be the death of me" ... GangstergrassSaveShare
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                              1,150 Posts #109 • Feb 13, 2012I like to drive with the seat bumped up most of the way anway (I'm 6'5"). But the W900 I drove had this massive visor on it so I couldn't see shit out of it unless I was towards the bottom. And that made for some bad foot cramps if I spent a lot of time backing that day or in traffic that day. But for normal driving, it definitely makes you want to float it more.

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