WTF SRSLY Yamaha!?

[FlexyTJ]

This is the oil filter union off my new Tracer 900 with 300 miles. Went to go change the oil and the filter became impossibly difficult to move. After I destroyed 3 filter wrenches, I gave up and called the dealer. They picked up the bike and hauled it over there and extracted this mess. All is well now (and in all fairness dealer picked up the tow, obvious warranty issue, and oil change)- but would you be concerned abut long term effects? I'm wondering if any metal debris made it through the return and into the engine? I know most of the damage happened upon removal but some had to have been present when the factory robot jammed this fucker on there

That along with the 80mm as delivered chain slack has me wondering how I lucked out and got the last bike off the assembly line Friday afternoon.

And yeah, I know, first world problems and all

 

[scooter2374]

Or its a Monday morning hangover bike. That sucks.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Or its a Monday morning hangover bike. That sucks.

Interesting to note I'm not alone, there are probably a dozen or so other threads easily tracked down of FJ/FZ, and MT/XSR/Tracer with cross threaded unions from the factory. Seems to be a systemic problem.

I'm just amazed they have the assembly line robots upper torque limit programmed that high it can fully seat the filter completely cross threaded and not leak a drop of oil. That's impressive

 

[FrankenToy]

Uncharacteristically Yamaha, to be sure. Does Yamaha have factories NOT in Japan now? They've done some janky sh!t like use fish oil in the suspension and EVERY suspension linkage bearing was lubricated with a Unicorn's kiss but it was expected and the first thing to do was change the fork/shock oil and lube the chassis. Yamaha, IMO, is the best bike brand (I ride HD, I raced Yamaha). As for the metal detritus from the galling (that pic looks different/worse than cross threading) you should be fine...

 

[FlexyTJ]

Uncharacteristically Yamaha, to be sure. Does Yamaha have factories NOT in Japan now? They've done some janky sh!t like use fish oil in the suspension and EVERY suspension linkage bearing was lubricated with a Unicorn's kiss but it was expected and the first thing to do was change the fork/shock oil and lube the chassis. Yamaha, IMO, is the best bike brand (I ride HD, I raced Yamaha). As for the metal detritus from the galling (that pic looks different/worse than cross threading) you should be fine...

I thought it was uncharacteristic too, based off general brand research I'd done prior to the purchase. Thought I was taking a step up coming from a Suzuki (that bike has some minor QC fit and finish issues) but has been rock solid mechanically. Fish oil damping, huh? I wouldn't doubt it- I'm on the light side of things so the stock suspension that is undersprung and underdamped for most is working ok for me, we'll see as it gets some cycles and with some gear strapped to the bike.

FWIW the VIN tag does claim assembled in Japan, I was under the impression most/all of the big four models were. I know KTM assembles their baby Dukes and RC's in India (Bajaj auto) so hopefully not a trend others adopt.

Agreed 'cross threaded' is maybe not quite the correct term. Odd the threads beyond the damage are fine (maybe the filter doesn't engage those) as well as the last thread prior to the damage. I kinda agree if it were cross threaded (this was the dealers term on my invoice), it would have wiped out that last thread on the way off. Spalling/galling? more accurate as if the union itself was defectively manufactured/threads cut, etc...in all fairness I'm sure Yamaha gets those from some 3rd party supplier and doesn't manf'r union fittings in house. never the less...

 

[bdkw1]

Fish oil was a Showa thing. I didn't know they were still doing it. Rebuilding any shock from the 80's was best done outdoors unless you wanted the whole house to smell like dead fish.

 

[subybaja]

FWIW the VIN tag does claim assembled in Japan, I was under the impression most/all of the big four models were. I know KTM assembles their baby Dukes and RC's in India (Bajaj auto) so hopefully not a trend others adopt.

I remember 10 years ago Kawasaki moved some of their assembly to...I think it was the Phillipines?

 

[FlexyTJ]

Fish oil was a Showa thing. I didn't know they were still doing it. Rebuilding any shock from the 80's was best done outdoors unless you wanted the whole house to smell like dead fish.

Think the suspension on this one is KYB, but that in and of itself prolly does not negate a fish oil factory fill :D

I remember 10 years ago Kawasaki moved some of their assembly to...I think it was the Phillipines?

Looks like maybe some of the smaller displacement stuff? Interestingly enough a quick google shows some relation to Bajaj auto, which when you go to their website, proudly displays a KTM logo :( We are probably doomed as far as globalization goes and it can't be cost effective to manufacture EVERY bike in Japan...

 

[FlexyTJ]

Just passed 9k mi and have been enjoying riding it finally, got the suspension dialed in, new second set of tires scrubbed in- went to go change the oil and found this bit of buzzkill under the water pump/housing. Back to the dealer take 2 No opening 'till the 14th of Jan- looks like a slow leak- keep riding or ride a different bike- WW Irate do?

 

[FlexyTJ]

Water pump replaced under warranty, and still leaking. Same leak (rate, splash pattern on cover, etc...).

Diagnosis was water pump mechanical seal failed- Which I believe is the seal on the impeller shaft separating the crankcase from coolant and explains the few drops of coolant I found in the oil when changing recently.

Not sure what would kill the new one so quickly in the same manner after riding only 200mi after the repair? Problem with the engine case/casting- not true/warped? burr on the engine case killing the mechanical seal?

Sad thing is I really like the bike and want nothing more than for it to be right....Bit of a conundrum as I'm not going to wrench on something under warranty (that has been acknowledged as being defective by dealer/Yamaha) and not going to continue riding a bike that ain't right. Dealer is going to take another look but I'm not super hopeful based off round #1.

 

[aron82]

Really supposed at all the trouble, yamaha is usually top of the Japanese heap for qc. That being said, I would probably look at dumping it before the warranty is up. It's not like it is a first year of production, or flagship bike with a bunch of fancy new tech.
its not like there aren't other options or bikes in the segment to choose from. Give a 1050 speed triple a go, or a v4 honda.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Really supposed at all the trouble, yamaha is usually top of the Japanese heap for qc. That being said, I would probably look at dumping it before the warranty is up. It's not like it is a first year of production, or flagship bike with a bunch of fancy new tech.
its not like there aren't other options or bikes in the segment to choose from. Give a 1050 speed triple a go, or a v4 honda.

Agreed an all accounts. Despite the thread title, I realize this is an extreme anomaly QC wise, and would probably try another Yamaha again at some point.

Not calling it quits yet, its back at the dealer where they acknowledged yep its leaking again, will reopen warranty case with YAM.

I did get a smokin deal on it and that makes it tougher to justify a trade as I'd be looking at bringing a bit of cash to the table to get into something else. I feel bad selling it privately to someone knowing it may not be right.

I'm hooked on the sport tourer thing after this one, can still slay an apex or two and keeps my inner hooligan at bay:D Ninja 1000 SX and maybe the GSX1000F im kicking around if this becomes a wild goose chase.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Got it back from round #2 on the water pump. They aren't wanting to do any more I guess. Advice was- 'here's your leaking bike back, ride it 'till she blows'! 'We'll come get ya with the flatbed - We need to see what's really wrong with it before we can do anything else' (That advice after acknowledging it's leaking- AGAIN)

Nevermind they are closed Sunday/Monday and I'm mostly a weekend warrior. Nevermind 1/2 my riding is hundreds of miles out in the middle of the desert with no cell signal. Sure, let's ignore it could fail catastrophically and 3L of coolant ends up under the rear tire while banked over in a corner.

I've lost confidence in the bike and it's not fun wondering if it's going to fail/ and or fighting an uphill battle to make it right. Guess I'll have to start putting some money aside for the inevitable loss I'm going to take trading the thing.

 

[FrankenToy]

Got it back from round #2 on the water pump. They aren't wanting to do any more I guess. Advice was- 'here's your leaking bike back, ride it 'till she blows'! 'We'll come get ya with the flatbed - We need to see what's really wrong with it before we can do anything else' (That advice after acknowledging it's leaking- AGAIN)

Nevermind they are closed Sunday/Monday and I'm mostly a weekend warrior. Nevermind 1/2 my riding is hundreds of miles out in the middle of the desert with no cell signal. Sure, let's ignore it could fail catastrophically and 3L of coolant ends up under the rear tire while banked over in a corner.

I've lost confidence in the bike and it's not fun wondering if it's going to fail/ and or fighting an uphill battle to make it right. Guess I'll have to start putting some money aside for the inevitable loss I'm going to take trading the thing.

Which Yamaha dealership are you working with? I'm almost sure you're NOT working with Vickery, right?. Try taking it to Vickery. I have been going to Vickery for decades and I even raced for them years ago, best Yamaha or even motorcycle dealership ever... period.

 

[Brian468]

I knew the fish oil thing was real!

I remember taking the forks apart on my yz250 at my friends dad`s shop and it reeking like fish, when we asked his dad he just shook his head and said it musta been retard day at the garage.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Which Yamaha dealership are you working with? I'm almost sure you're NOT working with Vickery, right?. Try taking it to Vickery. I have been going to Vickery for decades and I even raced for them years ago, best Yamaha or even motorcycle dealership ever... period.

I've permanently relocated to AZ. Vickery is definitely a cool shop though, I was mostly in to buy bulk Phillips B32 high test for the track cars. I wish I had some other options.

I'm not sure playing out different dealers would work, as supposedly they have checked back with Yamaha on this and its all in the warranty case file. Main issue being Yamaha is recommending a longer test ride to duplicate the issue (only happens riding the bike hour+ at highway/byway speeds). Shops insurance only allows them a 4 mile test route. So seemingly not a good in-between. I suppose a different shop/different insurance may have different rules and could potentially take it on a long enough ride to have the issue surface. There are only two Yamaha dealers in town and both are owned by the same parent company so I doubt going cross town would net anything different. Only other option is 120 miles up the road to Phoenix then this becomes a pain in the ass WAY beyond what I'm willing to endure.

Plan is to ride it most the day Saturday, if leaking take it back one more time (that will be try #3 on the coolant leak). After that I walk into the front sales and ask for mercy on a trade if they want to keep me as a customer (I'm not mentioning names/need to keep them on my good side/seems like they've done what they could). Last but not least head over to the Kawasaki dealer, grab my roll of duct tape, and prepare to be bent over on what I'm thinking will be a swap to a Ninja 1000SX. Still researching....

I knew the fish oil thing was real!

I remember taking the forks apart on my yz250 at my friends dad`s shop and it reeking like fish, when we asked his dad he just shook his head and said it musta been retard day at the garage.

If I make it to a fork oil swap on this one, I can send you a sample :D In the short miles I've put on I've 'lost' some adjustment on my clickers so I ass-ume that means the fluid is beat/water thin piss fluid of some sort.

 

[aron82]

There's always the niken you could trade it in on.
Looks like they killed off the fz1.

If you do end up getting it gone [i would in your shoes]
go and at least sit on a zx14r and a Hayabusa. They make great sport touri g machines. The frame is bigger and they are a lot more comfortable than regular sport bikes. The engines, if left stock are extremely reliable and have all the power and torque you could want. If you are smooth in your inputs they are sublime. They carry their weight low and even though they don't handle as well as a 1000cc Supersport they handle well enough, especially on real world roads. That and they are a usually priced well.

 

[FlexyTJ]

There's always the niken you could trade it in on.
Looks like they killed off the fz1.

If you do end up getting it gone [i would in your shoes]
go and at least sit on a zx14r and a Hayabusa. They make great sport touri g machines. The frame is bigger and they are a lot more comfortable than regular sport bikes. The engines, if left stock are extremely reliable and have all the power and torque you could want. If you are smooth in your inputs they are sublime. They carry their weight low and even though they don't handle as well as a 1000cc Supersport they handle well enough, especially on real world roads. That and they are a usually priced well.

I think I'm going to skip Yamaha this next go around. No weirdo Niken 3-wheeled thing-a-ma-bobbers :D They in fact have the exact same engine as the Tracer (900/triple). They do have a 2021 MT-10 at the dealer I'm working with and I see there are plenty of builds of people turning them into sport tourers- but then you have a bike with a frame/subframe not really meant to carry that extra weight- and dayum is it fugly. That CP4 engine in it sounds amazing though

So the Ninja 1000SX (despite the Ninja nomenclature) is a dedicated tourer- factory side cases n' all. I'm liking the 'lighter' sport tourers no more than low 500ish lbs. Not really too many bikes in that category anymore. Kinda rules out FJR (although I hear those have a major gearbox recall- yay! Yamaha), Concours 14, Tiger 1200, that kind of stuff. Although a driveshaft driven bike is appealing once you are putting on 500-600mi a day cause chain maintenance at that interval sucks.

The new BUSA looks interesting (redesign), bunch of buzz over it. I'm sure its a fun bike and I've been watching some of the reviews of it. I think it may be too big a girl for my tastes though but maybe I should go have a look. At least my other bike (Suzuki) runs and all the fluids stay inside, lol. But then you are riding something that carries the stigma of the 'busa crowd, I guess I never let what others think bug me before.

 

[aron82]

I was joking about the niken, but I wouldn't turn down one to ride for a weekend.

Considering you are probably at or over 500lbs on your tracer if you have bags or many farkles. I wouldn't get too hung up on weight. It really matters how the bike carries the weight. Down low can help you stay planted and keep from getting blownaround.
Forgot about the c14 they are extremely reliable with low maintenance. The first generation bikes some guys complained about heat on their legs. I haven't had a chance to ride one but would like to. I traded my zx14r for a 950 touring for the wife, she didn't like the idea of going that fast and I wasn't riding it that much. Getting her on her own bike has been great. 2up sucks.
I'm 6'3" and fat, so I like big bikes. Definitely miss the engine on the zx14r though,, beautifully smooth, yet savage if you turn off the tc and grab a handful. Bad thing was I didn't like anything trying to pass me and when you can dial up just about any speed you want.
I currently have a tiger explorer xc and rocket 3 roadster. The explorer is sporty enough for my tastes these days, although the engine isn't a big revved and sounds like a bit of a tractor. It will jump from 55 to 90 quick enough to make tight passes.

If triumph sold the 1050 sport here, I'd say check one out, but they don't. The trophy is pretty portly for what it is.
Most of the big adventure bikes are just more upright sport tourer.

Definitely do some test riding. Most euro dealers will let you take test drives. Jap dealers really don't like to give test rides but they do have more demo days.

 

[FlexyTJ]

update: Between last weekend and today I've put another ~600ish miles on it. Best I can tell I believe the leak is gone.

When I picked the bike up last time (curiously with no paperwork) the service guy gave some odd excuses that now carry more meaning-

1) "We torqued everything down per spec" shorthand for- 'we left all that shit loose the first time and did a half assed hack job fix on try #1, now that you are back complaining we'll torque it properly'

2) "Some times the mechanical seal can leak until it breaks in" shorthand for- 'we doped that shit up with permatex so it should last till a few days after the warranty is up then blow again'

Apparently attention to detail is not their thing, as I've gotten the bike back from them previous to this fix with loose chain tension adjuster nuts, fairings 1/2 on and rattling like crazy, and a rear wheel not squared in the swingarm. I'm guessing they left stuff loose, I don't see permatex. Anyhoo, maybe it's good now? My confidence is a bit shaken but that fades quickly when out riding.

In the meanwhile I went and test rode the Ninja 1000SX, and that is a sweet ride, quite a bit more refined than the Tracer. The engine is butter smooth compared to the rowdy triple in the Yam. It also has most of the things my base level Tracer is missing that would make for a more solid touring rig. I fit on the Ninja a bit better as well. The Tracer at its core is a gussied up hooligan machine that isn't too far off from where in came from (MT-09). It's raw and a bit untamed and that is fun, but leaves some to be desired when you ride it all day vs. a quick afternoon blast. I still have 6 mos/ warranty left so if it makes it another 10k mi (just turned that today)/6 more mos. without breaking again, maybe I'll keep it and dream about the 1000SX a bit longer.

 

[FlexyTJ]

I was joking about the niken, but I wouldn't turn down one to ride for a weekend.

Considering you are probably at or over 500lbs on your tracer if you have bags or many farkles. I wouldn't get too hung up on weight. It really matters how the bike carries the weight. Down low can help you stay planted and keep from getting blownaround.
Forgot about the c14 they are extremely reliable with low maintenance. The first generation bikes some guys complained about heat on their legs. I haven't had a chance to ride one but would like to. I traded my zx14r for a 950 touring for the wife, she didn't like the idea of going that fast and I wasn't riding it that much. Getting her on her own bike has been great. 2up sucks.
I'm 6'3" and fat, so I like big bikes. Definitely miss the engine on the zx14r though,, beautifully smooth, yet savage if you turn off the tc and grab a handful. Bad thing was I didn't like anything trying to pass me and when you can dial up just about any speed you want.
I currently have a tiger explorer xc and rocket 3 roadster. The explorer is sporty enough for my tastes these days, although the engine isn't a big revved and sounds like a bit of a tractor. It will jump from 55 to 90 quick enough to make tight passes.

If triumph sold the 1050 sport here, I'd say check one out, but they don't. The trophy is pretty portly for what it is.
Most of the big adventure bikes are just more upright sport tourer.

Definitely do some test riding. Most euro dealers will let you take test drives. Jap dealers really don't like to give test rides but they do have more demo days.

Those are some good suggestions too. The Kawi dealer also carries Triumph/KTM. I would like to give the Concourse 14 a go. Do the ZX14 and C14 use the same architecture engine? (I'm sure different tuning, etc..) Neighbor has an FJR that looks cool but not sure I can get behind doubling down on another Yam to that degree at this point- especially considering the gearbox recall on those they got going on. I couldn't imagine the dealer I'm working with tearing into the gearbox of that thing being they have trouble changing water pumps and tires My buddy does have a Tiger 1200 but I haven't convinced him to swap me yet for a leg of riding- again it seems like a big heavy bike for a 5'10' dude that might weigh 160lbs soaking wet. Also a bit worried as with Triumph I'd have only 1 dealer in a 150mi radius for service/parts if anything crazy breaks.

Wow the Rocket 3 must be a hoot! That thing sounds fun and would love to swing a leg over if I ever had the opportunity!

Any reliability or other issues on your Triumphs?

 

[aron82]

Rocket 3 is a blast, puts a big smile on my face every time I ride it. Not practical in any sense, but torque for days.
The tiger is tall and a bit top heavy when you are going slow, but it eats miles and is all day comfortable.

The tiger 800 is probably a better choice for someone your size. 1050 sport would be great if they sold it here.
I have to go down to Fort Collins if I need anything done on my Triumphs, but they have been completely trouble free.

The ZX-14 and Concourse 14 share the same architecture, Pretty sure the cam profiles are different. The ZX-14R is even more of a beast of an engine, more displacement, beautifully smooth, pulls like a freight train.
If you get a chance check out the VFR 1200X or even the VFR1200. Friend had one and it was a lot of fun and made a great sound.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Well - spoke to soon 🤬Back to square one. Same damn leak, back to the dealer - they acknowledged same leak as well. It doesn't happen until running at highway speed for 1+hr, previous rides had not included any of that.

Initial diagnosis was mechanical seal, part #7. They/Yam opted to replace entire assembly #1 vs just the mechanical seal which I thought was the right move. WTF would cause the mechanical seal on a new assembly to start leaking again in the same manner (from the weep hole) after less than 2k mi since the last repair??? I'm not an abusive rider, don't think the thing has even seen redline.

I started suggesting the water pump isn't the 'root cause' - they didn't seem to want to acknowledge the possibility. Anything else requires splitting the cases which I'm fairly sure I don't want these hacks doing anyway. The water pump is driven by the balancer shaft- so I'm wondering- is the balancer shaft gear not true? balancer shaft bearings sloppy/out of tolerance on that end causing the drive gear to wobble around forcing that seal to try and contain that oscillation? ideas????

Browsing around the internet 'Yamaha water pump mechanical seal failure' I see no shortage of posts on all kinds of forums across all kinds of Yam vehicles (street bikes, dirt bikes, quads, etc) of these seals failing. Is this a Yamaha thing? Or am I the unluckiest SOB to buy a Yamaha product ever?

Dealer sent pics back to Yam, waiting for their response. This is not going to end well 🤬

 

[87manche]

can you lemon law a motorcycle?

I'd let them put a whole new OEM water pump assembly on it. I think the dealer monkey has a much higher chance of getting that right than replacing just that seal in it.

 

[Stix]

Yeah you can lemon law. Did it with my Ducati street fighter after the tranny died twice. It was a process but was resolved by DNA.

 

[FlexyTJ]

Interesting thought on the lemon law, hadn't even considered it. Looks plausible in AZ. 4 attempts at fixing and/or 30 days out of commission qualifies. I'm on about day 28 combined between the oil filter union and the 3 water pump attempts.

I have all the documentation except attempt #2 ( I asked, they refused to supply a receipt, I should have insisted, grrrr). This is try 3, will not leave without a receipt.

Warranty is through Aug, so I should be able to rack up the documentation and/or days by then. I'm just going to be a persistent pain in the ass and take it back as long as its spewing and collecting the required documentation in the meanwhile.

Stix- did you retain a lawyer? I notice there are plenty of lawyers willing to take a lemon law case 'free'.

Really hate to have to go this route, quite a bummer. But good call and good idea to have the lemon law thing in play.

 

[aron82]

Sucks to hear about more issues, I would definitely be looking to send it down the road. A lot of dealerships will give a good deal on trade if you start talking Lemon law.

Life's to short to have to worry about being stranded every time you ride.

 

[aczlan]

Interesting thought on the lemon law, hadn't even considered it. Looks plausible in AZ. 4 attempts at fixing and/or 30 days out of commission qualifies. I'm on about day 28 combined between the oil filter union and the 3 water pump attempts.

I have all the documentation except attempt #2 ( I asked, they refused to supply a receipt, I should have insisted, grrrr). This is try 3, will not leave without a receipt.

Usually it has to be for the same problem, so if this two different problems it may not qualify.

Aaron Z

 

[Stix]

No lawyer. Bike tried to kill me twice. Second time the dealer had it I popped in for a surprise inspection. My brand new bike was in boxes. I’d had enough and so had the dealer. They actually helped me through the process. They wanted it gone as well. Become a thorn in there side. It’s your money.

 

[87manche]

Interesting thought on the lemon law, hadn't even considered it. Looks plausible in AZ. 4 attempts at fixing and/or 30 days out of commission qualifies. I'm on about day 28 combined between the oil filter union and the 3 water pump attempts.

I have all the documentation except attempt #2 ( I asked, they refused to supply a receipt, I should have insisted, grrrr). This is try 3, will not leave without a receipt.

Warranty is through Aug, so I should be able to rack up the documentation and/or days by then. I'm just going to be a persistent pain in the ass and take it back as long as its spewing and collecting the required documentation in the meanwhile.

Stix- did you retain a lawyer? I notice there are plenty of lawyers willing to take a lemon law case 'free'.

Really hate to have to go this route, quite a bummer. But good call and good idea to have the lemon law thing in play.

well look at it like this.

If they fix it, and it's the only things wrong with the bike now, you're happy again.
if not, keep letting them to attempt to fix it so you can drop the whole lemon law deal and leverage your way out of it.