WRGMG - Dumbing down of all hobbies

[kf4zht]

You know what really grinds my gears?

The race to the bottom for every hobby to make it easier for the lazy. Now its starting to bite some groups in the ass legally, but also is hurting many of them due to idiots doing dumb things in public.

A great example is the whole ghost guns/form 1 situation. Its been legal to build a firearm you can legally own since this country was founded. Then the AK kits got cheap and people started getting more interested. But quickly it went from "You need a press, welder, mill, etc". Well thats not fair, some people dont have a shop. "Oh, here is an AR 80 that you can do on a harbor freight mill", but thats too much money. "Ok, here's one that you can do with a woodworking router". But now its "I only have a rounded phillips screwdriver and grandpa's knife with the blade broken from when I repainted by living room, I want to build a gun". Now its so fawking easy that politicians are noticing and trying to make it illegal for people to build guns, even those that need a mill, lathe, etc.

I got into with a guy who was complaining that Home depot didnt have an adapter for his welder plug to his dryer outlet. I told him exactly the parts he needed to build one. "Oh, I was looking for something easy, i dont want to make this complicated". Buddy, welding aint for you if that is too much work

Jeeps and offroaders have been clearly hit. When many of us started you bought a welder and bender if you wanted stuff. Now you order a catalog.

The RC industry went from kits to everything is ready to fly, or worse drone that need very little skill. Now there are restrictions due to people with no real investment flying them in places that required more skill or discretion that they gave.

SCUBA training is cranking out way undertrained divers due to demands that it be possible to complete a training course in a weekend for $200


So how do we as hobbiests be inviting to new people into our groups, but keep some barrier of entry to ensure that only those who will be a positive influence and dedicated to doing it the right way are the target?

 

[Mr Stubs]

You know what really grinds my gears?

The race to the bottom for every hobby to make it easier for the lazy. Now its starting to bite some groups in the ass legally, but also is hurting many of them due to idiots doing dumb things in public.

A great example is the whole ghost guns/form 1 situation. Its been legal to build a firearm you can legally own since this country was founded. Then the AK kits got cheap and people started getting more interested. But quickly it went from "You need a press, welder, mill, etc". Well thats not fair, some people dont have a shop. "Oh, here is an AR 80 that you can do on a harbor freight mill", but thats too much money. "Ok, here's one that you can do with a woodworking router". But now its "I only have a rounded phillips screwdriver and grandpa's knife with the blade broken from when I repainted by living room, I want to build a gun". Now its so fawking easy that politicians are noticing and trying to make it illegal for people to build guns, even those that need a mill, lathe, etc.

I got into with a guy who was complaining that Home depot didnt have an adapter for his welder plug to his dryer outlet. I told him exactly the parts he needed to build one. "Oh, I was looking for something easy, i dont want to make this complicated". Buddy, welding aint for you if that is too much work

Jeeps and offroaders have been clearly hit. When many of us started you bought a welder and bender if you wanted stuff. Now you order a catalog.

The RC industry went from kits to everything is ready to fly, or worse drone that need very little skill. Now there are restrictions due to people with no real investment flying them in places that required more skill or discretion that they gave.

SCUBA training is cranking out way undertrained divers due to demands that it be possible to complete a training course in a weekend for $200


So how do we as hobbiests be inviting to new people into our groups, but keep some barrier of entry to ensure that only those who will be a positive influence and dedicated to doing it the right way are the target?

Money makes the world go round.

 

[Bamajeeper]

Someone forgot to take their meds.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Money makes the world go round.

Money also gets you assholes in 4Runners with everything from Dick's Sporting goods bolted to the roof.

Once a hobby becomes "cool" it becomes an image thing and morons who are just in it for the image or to take pics they can post on the 'gram fuck it up.

 

[woods]

I respectfully disagree. I want more people in the hobbies I take up. More companies get involved. Produce more products. Allow different options. Give each other competition in innovations, prices, and quality. There's a bottom of the barrel in every hobby. You can spend $100 on FBMP for a 2nd Gen Traxxas Stampede. Or, go nuts and drop $5,000 on a Vmaxx with like 36c. The choice is yours.

 

[Johann]

There will always be the "Bolt ons" vs the "Build Ups".

But as a hobby gets popular people find a way to make money offering"bolt ons" to the masses that can't figure out "Build UP".

 

[Ted_Kaczynski]

Invent a new hobby, then keep it a secret. You can name it "my precious".

You're welcome.

 

[87manche]

The RC industry went from kits to everything is ready to fly, or worse drone that need very little skill. Now there are restrictions due to people with no real investment flying them in places that required more skill or discretion that they gave.

and now it's ruined.

 

[FleshEater]

I don't have Facebook, Instagram, or any other stupid social media. I spend most of my time on Irate, and some on Wolverine Forums. My suggestion is stay off social media, then you won't notice who is doing what.

 

[Tiha]

You know what really grinds my gears?

I would say you are pretty spot on. Sure there are advantages in product development that can benefit us all but in the end just remember those posers are not you, not your quality.

Look at anything you buy, there is always room for improvement because they need to deliver a cost effective product, not a perfect one.

Things like milling a lower, building anything really. A true craftsman still shines.

It always shows, you can always see it if you are smart enough to know the difference in the first place.

For those people that take the shortcuts, Darwinism was supposed to take care of them, but unfortunately we have things like lawyers and osha to prevent that now.

 

[87manche]

I respectfully disagree. I want more people in the hobbies I take up. More companies get involved. Produce more products. Allow different options. Give each other competition in innovations, prices, and quality. There's a bottom of the barrel in every hobby. You can spend $100 on FBMP for a 2nd Gen Traxxas Stampede. Or, go nuts and drop $5,000 on a Vmaxx with like 36c. The choice is yours.

yes, and the person with a $100 stampede will go out and do stupid shit with it because they have no real investment in the hobby.
and they aren't in the community.

it's the same premise as douchenozzles that bought a bolt on JK, went out on the trail and then fuck it up for the long time wheelers by doing stupid shit that gets trails closed.

I didn't have to register with the FAA for 30 years, but now I have to.
because people with cheap quads couldn't figure out that they shouldn't be flying over people in parks and in their houses.

but you know where the FAA comes to inspect for registration numbers? Big RC events with multi thousand dollar airplanes, flown at sanctioned and insured flying locations, because that's easy for them to enforce.
not the problem people that got the karens to demand that a law be passed to regulate them.

as always, laws don't do shit to actually stop bad behavior, they often just add a layer of complexity to doing it right, and fuck people that are trying to comply.

 

[woods]

yes, and the person with a $100 stampede will go out and do stupid shit with it because they have no real investment in the hobby.
and they aren't in the community.

it's the same premise as douchenozzles that bought a bolt on JK, went out on the trail and then fuck it up for the long time wheelers by doing stupid shit that gets trails closed.

I didn't have to register with the FAA for 30 years, but now I have to.
because people with cheap quads couldn't figure out that they shouldn't be flying over people in parks and in their houses.

but you know where the FAA comes to inspect for registration numbers? Big RC events with multi thousand dollar airplanes, flown at sanctioned and insured flying locations, because that's easy for them to enforce.
not the problem people that got the karens to demand that a law be passed to regulate them.

as always, laws don't do shit to actually stop bad behavior, they often just add a layer of complexity to doing it right, and fuck people that are trying to comply.

Eh, a guy in a homebuilt rig can fuck up the trails just as much as a bolt on guy. If anything, perhaps even more knowing they're rig can with stand slinging 40s at 65mph bouncing at 5800rpm. The bolt on guy is worried he may scratch his hi-lift by going under that tree branch. A lot of that I feel is driver based; not rig based.

As for the FAA argument, fair point. Never saw it that way. That's kind of shitty.

 

[rockdog57]

Money makes the world go round.

Absolutely! All hobbies that are fun will attract people with money. Red dot buggies are an example of this. Are they killer buggies? Hell yes! Are they $150,000? Yup. People with money are always gonna be in every hobby. If you built your rig from scratch, good for you. But there will always be an after market in every hobby that will cater to people that are looking for a faster and more efficient way of accomplishing their goal. Psc steering for example. Why not buy a steering kit if you can afford it? If it bothers you, look the other way when the rich dudes in a row of $150,000 buggies go by. We let them by us in Boulder canyon a couple of years ago. I personally enjoyed the show they put on for us!

 

[Arickvan]

So how do we as hobbiests be inviting to new people into our groups, but keep some barrier of entry to ensure that only those who will be a positive influence and dedicated to doing it the right way are the target?

i would say larger clubs that "enforce" community guidelines

kind of like how my answer to "big social media" is go back to forums

we need to police our own or else someone will

 

[arse_sidewards]

Eh, a guy in a homebuilt rig can fuck up the trails just as much as a bolt on guy.

The guy with a home-built rig has time, often years, and effort invested in the sport to get to that point and therefore have an interest in not behaving like an ass. The guy in the JK or 4Runner with bolt-ons (or a SxS) just has no such up front investment.

 

[mobil1syn]

if we are going to hate on stupid, dont forget the sxs guys

 

[Splib]

I didn't have to register with the FAA for 30 years, but now I have to.
because people with cheap quads couldn't figure out that they shouldn't be flying over people in parks and in their houses.

but you know where the FAA comes to inspect for registration numbers? Big RC events with multi thousand dollar airplanes, flown at sanctioned and insured flying locations, because that's easy for them to enforce.
not the problem people that got the karens to demand that a law be passed to regulate them.

as always, laws don't do shit to actually stop bad behavior, they often just add a layer of complexity to doing it right, and fuck people that are trying to comply.

Was going to mention the flying Penguins . . .

 

[woods]

The guy with a home-built rig has time, often years, and effort invested in the sport to get to that point and therefore have an interest in not behaving like an ass. The guy in the JK or 4Runner with bolt-ons (or a SxS) just has no such up front investment.

I guess that's a case by case situation. I've wheeled with some home built buggies that absolutely SHREDDED the woods. Totally nuts. Not giving two shits about trash, leaked fluids, leaving ruts everywhere, etc. Place looks like a log skidder just passed through. Didn't feel right at all, but they didn't care. Private was even worse. I've wheeled with a local and they had "red trail" and "blue trail". Red trail was Bud cans everywhere. Blue trail was Bud Light. Hundreds and hundreds, perhaps thousands of cans in the woods. These guys would start on a 30 rack at 9am and finish by 11. By noon just about all the rigs were broke and left for the next day to deal with since they were too drunk. But yea, that was on private land so there is that. I agree that the guy with six years of blood, sweat, and tears in his rig should more often than not hold themselves to a higher standard. But that's not always the case even though it feels like it should be.

 

[kf4zht]

I respectfully disagree. I want more people in the hobbies I take up. More companies get involved. Produce more products. Allow different options. Give each other competition in innovations, prices, and quality. There's a bottom of the barrel in every hobby. You can spend $100 on FBMP for a 2nd Gen Traxxas Stampede. Or, go nuts and drop $5,000 on a Vmaxx with like 36c. The choice is yours.

I want more people. But I don't want people who bring a negative light and get places to perform the hobby shut down or items for the hobby made illegal by people who have no investment.

So on RC cars, if you are in an organized race do you want people who built their setups, are serious about racing and practice, or do you want a bunch of people who just bought their $100 rig, dont practice and are all over the track running into people and damaging their setups?

 

[kf4zht]

I guess that's a case by case situation. I've wheeled with some home built buggies that absolutely SHREDDED the woods. Totally nuts. Not giving two shits about trash, leaked fluids, leaving ruts everywhere, etc. Place looks like a log skidder just passed through. Didn't feel right at all, but they didn't care. Private was even worse. I've wheeled with a local and they had "red trail" and "blue trail". Red trail was Bud cans everywhere. Blue trail was Bud Light. Hundreds and hundreds, perhaps thousands of cans in the woods. These guys would start on a 30 rack at 9am and finish by 11. By noon just about all the rigs were broke and left for the next day to deal with since they were too drunk. But yea, that was on private land so there is that. I agree that the guy with six years of blood, sweat, and tears in his rig should more often than not hold themselves to a higher standard. But that's not always the case even though it feels like it should be.

Wheeling seems to be its own special case. There are too many people even with time in that don't care. I'm not sure what it is that makes some people not care about going out but its with both built and bolted rigs. However those same people seem to be the same ones that will tear up the environment no matter what they are doing. They are bad hunters, bad wheelers, bad campers, bad boaters.

 

[woods]

I want more people. But I don't want people who bring a negative light and get places to perform the hobby shut down or items for the hobby made illegal by people who have no investment.

So on RC cars, if you are in an organized race do you want people who built their setups, are serious about racing and practice, or do you want a bunch of people who just bought their $100 rig, dont practice and are all over the track running into people and damaging their setups?

I agree with this standpoint. Its the separation of competition and home use. Totally get it and I agree. Those in competitions, competing, public events should definitely be held at a higher standard.

That being said, I still think its important to have access and availability to "Harbor Freight" and RTR products. For instance, I'll be looking at a cheapo TIG welder in the future. Just for home use. Build some racks on the motorcycle. I've got an exhaust pipe that I could either buy the $280 kit, or just weld it myself while learning a new skill. Don't need a $2500 TIG setup, but a $500 jobber would suffice. Then again, you won't find me TIG welding high dollar roll cages for KOH either.

But yea, I definitely agree that those that are joining a public event or competition should be held at a higher standard for sure.

 

[SomeGuy]

I agree with this standpoint. Its the separation of competition and home use. Totally get it and I agree. Those in competitions, competing, public events should definitely be held at a higher standard.

That being said, I still think its important to have access and availability to "Harbor Freight" and RTR products. For instance, I'll be looking at a cheapo TIG welder in the future. Just for home use. Build some racks on the motorcycle. I've got an exhaust pipe that I could either buy the $280 kit, or just weld it myself while learning a new skill. Don't need a $2500 TIG setup, but a $500 jobber would suffice. Then again, you won't find me TIG welding high dollar roll cages for KOH either.

But yea, I definitely agree that those that are joining a public event or competition should be held at a higher standard for sure.

Part of this is you gotta start somewhere. Lowering the barrier for entry will lead to the craftsman and pros down the road. If a $500 TIG lets you realize how much you enjoy it or get you the skills to move up in the welding world, then all the better for everyone.

 

[Fishslayer]

Rodbuilding has been trending away from fancy (time consuming) threadwork and "marbling" got popular. Just getting schmeary with different color paints.

 

[kf4zht]

I agree with this standpoint. Its the separation of competition and home use. Totally get it and I agree. Those in competitions, competing, public events should definitely be held at a higher standard.

That being said, I still think its important to have access and availability to "Harbor Freight" and RTR products. For instance, I'll be looking at a cheapo TIG welder in the future. Just for home use. Build some racks on the motorcycle. I've got an exhaust pipe that I could either buy the $280 kit, or just weld it myself while learning a new skill. Don't need a $2500 TIG setup, but a $500 jobber would suffice. Then again, you won't find me TIG welding high dollar roll cages for KOH either.

But yea, I definitely agree that those that are joining a public event or competition should be held at a higher standard for sure.

Buying cheap tools is one thing. Buying cheap tools and then complaining that you have to do a little work to use them is not ok. And that is part of the problem. There are plenty of cheap tools in just about any category and people still dont want to invest in them. A drill press is $100 at harbor frieght. But the form 1 "solvent trap" crowd complains thats too much. Why can't i do it with a hand drill and why should I need to buy bits, why dont the walmart ones work? I would be perfect happy if someone who wanted to build a gun went out and bought a welder, a drill press and some basic hand tools. It can all be chinese junk. But they wont even do that.

Ready to run is a different story. What the time investment in building your first RC car/plane? Not that much for something that will be a significant hobby, plus you then know how to fix it when it breaks. Plus you will be more invested in its survival.

 

[87manche]

Eh, a guy in a homebuilt rig can fuck up the trails just as much as a bolt on guy. If anything, perhaps even more knowing they're rig can with stand slinging 40s at 65mph bouncing at 5800rpm. The bolt on guy is worried he may scratch his hi-lift by going under that tree branch. A lot of that I feel is driver based; not rig based.

As for the FAA argument, fair point. Never saw it that way. That's kind of shitty.

yes, but the guy in the cheap homebuilt rig, or an airplane they had to build themselves, likely had to seek out community help to build it, and in that community also got the "hey, don't fuck this up for us" talking to.

when you remove the barriers to entry you remove that community support.

for my entire life (I solo'd with a sig senorita at the age of 5) the AMA was that community organization that managed it and kept the government from being involved. If you wanted to learn to build anf fly model airplanes you very likely sought out the local club, because it was hard.

now it's easy, and every person with $100 can go buy a RTF quad at walmart and be a fucking idiot with it, and that gets the serious modelers regulated because of the passing fad, and that's bullshit.

I've been doing it safely and responsibly for my entire life, but now I have to deal with bullshit because other people are stupid.

it's like gun control.
gun control doesn't stop bad people from doing bad shit with firearms, it just makes it more difficult for the responsible.


so on one hand it's great because manufacturers are making money and new people are getting into the hobby. on the other hand it's also destroyed the community that self regulated the hobby.

 

[evernoob]

yes, and the person with a $100 stampede will go out and do stupid shit with it because they have no real investment in the hobby.
and they aren't in the community.

it's the same premise as douchenozzles that bought a bolt on JK, went out on the trail and then fuck it up for the long time wheelers by doing stupid shit that gets trails closed.

I didn't have to register with the FAA for 30 years, but now I have to.
because people with cheap quads couldn't figure out that they shouldn't be flying over people in parks and in their houses.

but you know where the FAA comes to inspect for registration numbers? Big RC events with multi thousand dollar airplanes, flown at sanctioned and insured flying locations, because that's easy for them to enforce.
not the problem people that got the karens to demand that a law be passed to regulate them.

as always, laws don't do shit to actually stop bad behavior, they often just add a layer of complexity to doing it right, and fuck people that are trying to comply.

Drones are particularly bad, when I first heard about them I wanted to do exactly what is illegal with them: Launch it in my living room, then fly it over everyone's back yards to see who is growing pot and sunbathing nude. Then fly it over the cops and accidents scenes and spy on them. Fly it around industrial structures and around city streets. Of course what's the good of a drone if you have to sit there and watch it, it has cameras and shit, should be able to fly that baby 50 miles away. Hell I should be able to fly a drone over Lake Michigan, pick up a six pack of yingling, and fly it back to me.

Then I want to drop water and paint balloons on people, maybe sacks of burning dogshit, and harass old men who are mowing their lawn.

Then I want to spy on a bald eagle's nest, troll some whitetail deer, terrorize a raccoon, and herd a flock of turkeys.

Drones are mischievous as hell, they have to be regulated to fuck.

The old RC airplanes sounded like a competition chainsaw, it's not like you could get away with anything. Drones are the hobby that was ruined by advancements.

 

[61scout80]

I don't have Facebook, Instagram, or any other stupid social media. I spend most of my time on Irate, and some on Wolverine Forums. My suggestion is stay off social media, then you won't notice who is doing what.

You know Facebook & Instagram are basically the same thing as a forum, right?

 

[Provience]

gatekeepers in terms of people suck. don't suck

 

[TRINDU]

You know Facebook & Instagram are basically the same thing as a forum, right?

Have your irate username on the back window too?

 

[87manche]

Drones are particularly bad, when I first heard about them I wanted to do exactly what is illegal with them: Launch it in my living room, then fly it over everyone's back yards to see who is growing pot and sunbathing nude. Then fly it over the cops and accidents scenes and spy on them. Fly it around industrial structures and around city streets. Of course what's the good of a drone if you have to sit there and watch it, it has cameras and shit, should be able to fly that baby 50 miles away. Hell I should be able to fly a drone over Lake Michigan, pick up a six pack of yingling, and fly it back to me.

Then I want to drop water and paint balloons on people, maybe sacks of burning dogshit, and harass old men who are mowing their lawn.

Then I want to spy on a bald eagle's nest, troll some whitetail deer, terrorize a raccoon, and herd a flock of turkeys.

Drones are mischievous as hell, they have to be regulated to fuck.

The old RC airplanes sounded like a competition chainsaw, it's not like you could get away with anything. Drones are the hobby that was ruined by advancements.

say it with me.

Laws don't stop any of that.