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Who's still got an FFL

kf4zht

Red Skull Member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Member Number
561
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Thinking about getting my 07. Been doing some side work in the shop on guns and it would be nice to be able to either get receivers sent in or be able to do work without the owner staying there. Side gig, main business would be custom work, some engraving and custom suppressors (odd calibers, integral, etc).

Right now my list (as I understand it)

  • Check if zoning will allow it
  • Register LLC
  • Get EIN, Tax crap
  • File ATF forms
  • Interview
  • Get paperwork
  • Shenanigans

Zoning may be a headache, or it might not

Home occupation, provided the following criteria are met:

a. Home occupations may be approved by the building inspector upon the application of the proposed principal in such form as the building inspector or his/her designee may direct.
b. No more than two persons shall be engaged in such home occupation, one of whom shall be a member of the family residing on the premises.

c. The use of the dwelling for the home occupation shall be clearly incidental and subordinate to its use for residential purposes by its occupants and no more than 25 percent of the floor area of the dwelling unit or 500 square feet, whichever amount is less, shall be used for the conduct of the home occupation. Such space may be contained in a lawful accessory structure.

d. There shall be no assembly or group instructions in connection with the home occupation. Individual instruction on a one-on-one basis is permitted.

e. No product shall be sold on the premises. This provision shall not be construed as prohibiting sales by taking orders personally or by telephone when delivery of the merchandise is to take place elsewhere.

f. No traffic shall be generated by such home occupation in greater volumes than would normally be expected in the neighborhood and any need for parking generated by the conduct of such home occupation shall be met off the street and other than in the required front or side yard.

g. No equipment or process shall be used in such home occupation, which creates noise, vibration, glare, fumes, odors, or electrical interference detectable to the normal senses off the lot.

h. Any person who obtains authorization permitting the conduct of a home occupation shall be a member of the family residing on the premises, shall take substantially all of his/her overnight lodging at the dwelling, shall store substantially all his personal belongings which are used in normal daily life in the dwelling, and shall use the address of the subject dwelling as his/her address for legal purposes such as registration to vote and payment of personal property taxes.

A says they can just be a dick, C could be a problem since i don't know if a permit was pulled on my shop (existed when I moved in), G is the kicker, but my argument is the shop is there if its a business or not. I'm not adding anything that wouldn't be done already


Still need to look into insurance and what the requirements are for storage and security. I've heard that you need separate safes and I've heard that it doesn't matter and I've heard that it does but a ring system and a rigid jobbox will meet requirements.

Unless yall have some advice I think I might head down to the Business license office in town and ask.
 
The only issue that was raised by the zoning board had to do with advertising. Once they understood there would be none, I was good to go. They did ask about customer traffic and I told them it was all through the mail.
Once my 07 was approved, then I applied for my SOT.
That came at the advice of my local BATFE office
 
The only issue that was raised by the zoning board had to do with advertising. Once they understood there would be none, I was good to go. They did ask about customer traffic and I told them it was all through the mail.
Once my 07 was approved, then I applied for my SOT.
That came at the advice of my local BATFE office
Yeah, I may have a drop off every now and then but mostly mail order. It will follow their no more traffic than normal.

I didn't even know you could apply for an sot before the ffl. Did find out that you also need a Georgia gun dealer permit, which is 25 bucks and 2 weeks wait
 
Yeah, I may have a drop off every now and then but mostly mail order. It will follow their no more traffic than normal.

I didn't even know you could apply for an sot before the ffl. Did find out that you also need a Georgia gun dealer permit, which is 25 bucks and 2 weeks wait

You can't do the SOT first but you can do them at the same time. They told me not to so that manufacturing didn't come up in a conversation with Zoning.
No extra permit required here.
 
or be able to do work without the owner staying there.
I’m not sure where this idea came from, but I hear it a bunch, Doing ANY work on a firearm or firearm frame for business requires a FFL. It doesn’t matter if a customer stays there or not. A customer leaving a firearm with you over night only matters if you log it in or not.
 
I’m not sure where this idea came from, but I hear it a bunch, Doing ANY work on a firearm or firearm frame for business requires a FFL. It doesn’t matter if a customer stays there or not. A customer leaving a firearm with you over night only matters if you log it in or not.
From the ATF

If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm, the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as required by 27 CFR 478.28.

 
g. No equipment or process shall be used in such home occupation, which creates noise, vibration, glare, fumes, odors, or electrical interference detectable to the normal senses off the lot.

??? The last "home" FFL I did business with had an ENTIRE machine shop in his basement, along with bluing tanks and such, and those machines were industrial not hobby. He did really good work (he gave me a $3 tour). The house was in a very affluent, albeit established, neighborhood.
 
So no machine guns without an FFL? I’m out. :flipoff2:
 
Context is important here.
An FFL/SOT can complete your F1 without you there, just needs to log it in.
That section of the CRF is speaking about people dropping F1's off at a machine shop or their buddys house
And that is what I have been doing. It doesnt say there that the "other locations" have to be an FFL, so long as the person stays. I see that as I can do the work for someone as long as they are there through the process without an FFL. But have decided it might be worth getting one to work around that. Also see some opportunity in "fixing" form 1 cans

g. No equipment or process shall be used in such home occupation, which creates noise, vibration, glare, fumes, odors, or electrical interference detectable to the normal senses off the lot.

??? The last "home" FFL I did business with had an ENTIRE machine shop in his basement, along with bluing tanks and such, and those machines were industrial not hobby. He did really good work (he gave me a $3 tour). The house was in a very affluent, albeit established, neighborhood.

That just what my local codes say. It's different in every town and county. I'm wondering how bad electrical interference needs to be for it to be "detectable to normal senses"
 
When I looked into this the thing I read to do first was contact sheriff/police because they had to sign off on it.

So talk to them and see if they are okay with it, have requirements, and so forth.

You may find a local sheriff that simply doesn't like it and will make it impossible for you to maintain one. Have heard of that happening, but who knows the whole story.
 
When I looked into this the thing I read to do first was contact sheriff/police because they had to sign off on it.

So talk to them and see if they are okay with it, have requirements, and so forth.

You may find a local sheriff that simply doesn't like it and will make it impossible for you to maintain one. Have heard of that happening, but who knows the whole story.
I haven't seen that requirement brought up anywhere.

The form 7 doesnt require it, just an inform
1653401163277.png


And GA code says they cannot specifically restrict it just because it is a firearms based company. It can only be restricted by zoning if the same business in a non-firearms capacity would be restricted (OCGA 16-11-173)

1653401307652.png
 
A person/shop that helped just one person, one tine, may be OK. If it is part of their business, they would need a FFL:


§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.

"(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;"

"Manufacturer. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition. The term shall include any person who engages in such business on a part-time basis."
 
And that is what I have been doing. It doesnt say there that the "other locations" have to be an FFL, so long as the person stays. I see that as I can do the work for someone as long as they are there through the process without an FFL. But have decided it might be worth getting one to work around that. Also see some opportunity in "fixing" form 1 cans



That just what my local codes say. It's different in every town and county. I'm wondering how bad electrical interference needs to be for it to be "detectable to normal senses"
In CO you could drag the whole grid down growing pot but if your VAR is noticeable you better shut down the lathe...:laughing:
 
well huh, I've decided that I am going to attempt and get one. Or atleast check the process out. Following along.
 
So figured I'd just do a log of my process through this whole thing. I've reviewed the ATF form and requirements, goal is a 07.

Monday I emailed the town's city people for any local ordinances as that seemed like on are that could create hangups. Luckily they had a board meeting that night and approved my request to do it at my residence, just to watch that traffic doesn't annoy the neighbors.

Thursday I checked with the county and they said to call the sheriff's office. Sheriff's office said the are no ordinances just have to provide them a copy of the application.

So next is to setup the LLC, then apply for the EIN number. Hope to get the LLC in tomorrow.
 
I did some more poking around on the city website and have a few more answers on mine. For the zoning there is one guy who I have to talk to, if he says its ok I'm good. If not I have to request a variance and do the board meeting song and dance.

Also found that the business license for the city is $400/yr. So $950/yr right now (50 for the FFL, 500 for the SOT and 400 to the city). And you have to have the city police do a BG check once you have your FFL and state license ($25). So after you have a check done by the FBI and the state the local popo are going to magically find something? And you have to report monthly your sales and trades (but it doesnt say gunsmithing logs)
 
Called the office. Lady was very helpful but said she would have to do some research. Had a couple of questions early on that were probably immediate disqualifiers - are you selling gun (can't sell product from home) and will customers be coming to your home. When I told her it was mail in and I would be doing work on guns it seemed to cover those bases. Doubt I will get a call before next week, but the local govt has surprised me. Had a 3 minute response time from the police on a non-emergency trailer inspection
 
Another update. Got a call from a Major at the local PD. City forwarded it to him, we talked about what the goals were and he was fairly knowledgeable and very positive. Gave me the go ahead with the understanding that it was not a retail foot traffic business, no sign in the yard and it would technically open me up to having the business have police walkthroughs. He also said that he hopes it all works out as him and several other officers have work they need done and there aren't many options in town, so some positive inroads toward potential law letters.

With that news paperwork starts. Hardest part is making sure I do everything in the most logical order, likely starting with registering the LLC.
 
Yeah I winged a LLC application through this weekend, it seemed somewhat simple but I was under with the vid so could have screwed up something, should know in 7 days I guess.
 
Subsection E of your home occupation code precludes you from obtaining an FFL. You might convince your county to give you a HO certification, but the ATF is going to reject your application. They will review your code during the application process

The ATF sees the operation of an FFL as gun SALES being first and foremost. If you are precluded from conducting sales at your place of business then you cannot conduct an FFL operation there. Regardless of what you plan to do.
1 I'm going for a 07, manufacturer not retail sales
2 it specifically says internet based sales are ok, which for someone who is manufacturing and selling online is fine.
 
I got the same answer when talking with a local FFL last night. He said basally the same thing, get it in writing from the City/County and the ATF might approve it.
 
100% incorrect.

An 07 license is a DEALER of firearms with the ability to manufacture. You are engaged in a RETAIL operation of guns sales that you manufacture. Hence why you must attest to the store hours that you're open to the public.


Look, I'll telling you all this because this is exactly what happened to me when I applied for my first FFL. I got the same style of HO you got with the same explanation of only doing online and off site sales. Thankfully my inspector was super cool and knew my county well. He explained he would have to deny my application if I couldn't get the county to approve me for RETAIL gun sales. Thankfully again, my county had a special certification for homes zoned agriculture, which I was. I got that cert and got immediately approved.

You have to get something from the county that approves you for RETAIL sales at your home or they will outright deny you. Happened again when I moved.
100% NOT TRUE.

I am an 07 FFL out of my residence. My county also doesn't allow for retail sales/walk in customers. Because everything I do is shipping, my county had no problem issuing me a business license. The ATF had no problem issuing me a FFL.

Edit: My business licenes does state "Gunsmith - Valid for retail sale of firears".
 
Mine was a bit goofy becuase I couldn't get a FFL without a business license, but I couldn't get a business license without a FFL...

My county and ATF were cool about it, and I can't remeber who ended up conditionally aproving it.
 
Mine was a bit goofy becuase I couldn't get a FFL without a business license, but I couldn't get a business license without a FFL...

My county and ATF were cool about it, and I can't remeber who ended up conditionally aproving it.
This is the part I am working on now. Getting the order of operations correct.
 
Sorta slowed down on my app process. Circled back to the City from the above discussion on getting a formal statement authorizing the sale of fire arms for the ATF. That might come through by next week.

Did get my LLC approval back from Montana, only took 2 days. Glad I didn't pay extra for the quicker processing.
 
100% incorrect.

An 07 license is a DEALER of firearms with the ability to manufacture. You are engaged in a RETAIL operation of guns sales that you manufacture. Hence why you must attest to the store hours that you're open to the public.


Look, I'll telling you all this because this is exactly what happened to me when I applied for my first FFL. I got the same style of HO you got with the same explanation of only doing online and off site sales. Thankfully my inspector was super cool and knew my county well. He explained he would have to deny my application if I couldn't get the county to approve me for RETAIL gun sales. Thankfully again, my county had a special certification for homes zoned agriculture, which I was. I got that cert and got immediately approved.

You have to get something from the county that approves you for RETAIL sales at your home or they will outright deny you. Happened again when I moved.

My experience was the exact opposite of this.
I specifically told them there was going to be zero retail, that I was only conducting manufacturing with no signage and no foot traffic. My inspector didn't care so long as the city said I was zoned for what i was going to do.
 
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