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What’s going to become of the police forces in our country?

ev13wt said:
1. Don't shoot to kill.
2. Don't shoot a suspect running away drunk.
3. Be held accountable in front of 12.
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Anything that doesn't include a massive change to Police Unions is worthless. That will happen but not at this point. It's only a matter of time.

Phillip Brialsford, the "YOU'RE FUCKED" cop who was re-hired then retired on $35,000/yr for life pension after shooting Daniel Shaver 5x is the one responsible for that.

Every LEO in the US can thank him when the police unions are smacked.
 
Slander said:
I live 1hr outside Chicago, and my "village" has 75k people, so yes well aware of urban dynamics.
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That's what I'm talking about. You don't watch that area change through the 24-hour cycle, although you intellectually know that it happens. My friends that live IN those areas don't know, the kind of people that make up these protests/riots.

Older New Yorkers remember what it's like when there are no boundaries. It's kind of fun talking to them about Guiliani and the Corps moving in and cleaning up Times Square.

Huge tracts of urban landscape won't even be workable if they don't set those police boundaries.

I almost hope it happens. All of those Startup Incubators and Tech companies will have to hire armed guards to get their people to and from the parking ramp.

I just don't see the Media or anyone appreciating how big of change will happen. Cities like Chicago and Detroit absolutely depend on dozens of these little enclaves which are basically oases of civilization in a jungle.
 
ev13wt said:
1. Don't shoot to kill.
2. Don't shoot a suspect running away drunk.
3. Be held accountable in front of 12.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as "Don't shoot to kill."

That's Hollywood Bull Shit.

If your goal isn't to kill, don't shoot.
 
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ev13wt said:
1. Don't shoot to kill.
2. Don't shoot a suspect running away drunk.
3. Be held accountable in front of 12.
Click to expand...

1. You shoot someone in a leg or the arm as soon as you go to court and the guys attorney says he can never use his arm or will never walk again, YOU ARE FUCKED!
2. Suspect runs away then turns around with something in his hand is it a gun or just a cell phone, you have to decided faster than you can believe, shoot or don't shoot, live or die quick what do you do? Does your wife become a widow and your kids orphans because you made the wrong decision?
 
ndsgr said:
Ending qualified immunity seems great on the surface, but what happens when it gets abused with frivolous lawsuits?
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this...the law of unintended consequences. .....would open another whole can of worms....trial lawyers are salivating
 
budget76 said:
after having my eyes opened to think about it, it does make me wonder how this didn't already exist today. It's not like the technology isn't out there - they've been doing it in the medical field for how long now??
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Because of unions...... unions + government jobs is a costly mix!!!! Finances and work ethic goes goes out the window!!!!
I like the idea of licensing and insuring yourself...basically accountability goes to self and if you act out your insurance goes up or you lose your license!!!
 
Gregj50!!!!! said:
Because of unions...... unions + government jobs is a costly mix!!!! Finances and work ethic goes goes out the window!!!!
I like the idea of licensing and insuring yourself...basically accountability goes to self and if you act out your insurance goes up or you lose your license!!!
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My dad helped get the Alb. fire dept unionised, untill they did, you could be hired , fired or promoted on whim of the firechief. After they unionised they instituted testing for promotions, and standardised testing for hiring, and you couldn't get fired just because the chief didn't like the car you drove.
 
IMO the real issue is that the officers that are being hired are under qualified, not properly trained, and not of the required temperament for the job. How many instances have we seen of officers planting evidence? How many times have officers failed to deescalate a situation? How many times have we seen officers serve a "no knock warrant" on the WRONG address? Admittedly, there are many other issues in policing, quotas among the most egregious, but I feel the standards are too low. In the words of my high school football coach, "If you can't cut the mustard. I guess you just gonna be a hot-dog."
 
bigun said:
My dad helped get the Alb. fire dept unionised, untill they did, you could be hired , fired or promoted on whim of the firechief. After they unionised they instituted testing for promotions, and standardised testing for hiring, and you couldn't get fired just because the chief didn't like the car you drove.
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I’m not gonna go into gripes about specific unions!!!
I stand by my opinion... it is generalized but I think most people understand it!!!

Just say “union yes”, right?????
:flipoff2:
 
evernoob said:
Lefties need to have the Police because all of those nifty Lefty enclaves in cities are 100% dependent on Police protection to survive.

You're talking Trillions of dollars of Real Estate that evaporates overnight if they don't have cops busting every ne'er do well, thug, and hobo surrounding these enclaves.

I don't know if you've ever been in a sizable city or around these enclaves a lot, it would take some time to see it. There is a gentrified little Burg in the middle of this city, with high-end restaurants and shops, hipsters sipping coffee at sidewalk cafes, and you turn two blocks and it's Angola.

Both Economically and Socially, the Lefties are more dependent on the police than we are. By a lot. Like their entire existence is based on a strict and copious Policing.

If you haven't lived IN cities, you can understand what I'm saying but you have no idea how far this extends.
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I lived in a questionable part of Milwaukee for a bit. My dad grew up on the corner diagonally from me on the same block, during the race riots in the 60s. He told me growing up you didnt cross holton, I told him 40+ years later you still didn't. Same in Chicago. Cross a highway from nice honkey neighborhood and into a warzone.
 
ConwayMuddy said:
I lived in a questionable part of Milwaukee for a bit. My dad grew up on the corner diagonally from me on the same block, during the race riots in the 60s. He told me growing up you didnt cross holton, I told him 40+ years later you still didn't. Same in Chicago. Cross a highway from nice honkey neighborhood and into a warzone.
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It's even true in a city like Grand Rapids, MI. The leaders of the City fucked up when they produced the Easttown enclave, or Ionia. In between these enclaves are dark territory you don't want to cross. College kids walking home from the brewpubs after 2AM started getting assaulted and even shot, that was back in 2014.

All of those enclaves evaporate without Policing. BLM hates 'Gentrification', and gentrification is the only life blood of any city center in America, Midwest or not.

GR was one of the last cities that still had low-crime, white neighborhoods in a city center. Those centers are evaporating. East Grand Rapids has been encroached for decades, and now it's over. An old woman stood out in the street with a bat and told the Rioters to not come through her town, she was assaulted and nothing was done about it.

The center does not hold.
 
bigun said:
1. You shoot someone in a leg or the arm as soon as you go to court and the guys attorney says he can never use his arm or will never walk again, YOU ARE FUCKED!
2. Suspect runs away then turns around with something in his hand is it a gun or just a cell phone, you have to decided faster than you can believe, shoot or don't shoot, live or die quick what do you do? Does your wife become a widow and your kids orphans because you made the wrong decision?
Click to expand...

They're wearing body armor. They know the risks.


Am I advocating for violence against cops?? Not at all.

Hold them to a higher standard. Pretty simple.
 
evernoob said:
That's what I'm talking about. You don't watch that area change through the 24-hour cycle, although you intellectually know that it happens. My friends that live IN those areas don't know, the kind of people that make up these protests/riots.

Older New Yorkers remember what it's like when there are no boundaries. It's kind of fun talking to them about Guiliani and the Corps moving in and cleaning up Times Square.

Huge tracts of urban landscape won't even be workable if they don't set those police boundaries.

I almost hope it happens. All of those Startup Incubators and Tech companies will have to hire armed guards to get their people to and from the parking ramp.

I just don't see the Media or anyone appreciating how big of change will happen. Cities like Chicago and Detroit absolutely depend on dozens of these little enclaves which are basically oases of civilization in a jungle.
Click to expand...

Those little enclaves are what makes the city cool to visit. Chicago was/is one of the most segregated city, read some articles about how they routed the interstates to keep groups separated.
 
Slander said:
Those little enclaves are what makes the city cool to visit. Chicago was/is one of the most segregated city, read some articles about how they routed the interstates to keep groups separated.
Click to expand...

They are but they're in the way of the Chinese. Many foreigners have bought up huge tracts of land in cities like Detroit, and China has long said how unfair it is that the US is so sparsely populated and how much quality land we have.

I think it makes sense if this communist-style street revolution was encouraged by the Chinese so that they can buy up loads of over-valued but now discount urban property. Then they can move in and offer solutions to violence while claiming to have displaced the Colonizing Whites.

I have no evidence for this but it seems convenient that at the moment the world was about to turn on the Chinese, the US explodes into nationwide riots over a felon drug-addict who can clearly be seen moving and lifting his head while his co-worked kneels on his back.
 
grumpy356 said:
There is no such thing as "Don't shoot to kill."

That's Hollywood Bull Shit.

If your goal isn't to kill, don't shoot.
Click to expand...


So the justice system is fucked, dofferent problem. You should never shoot anyone in the back. Shit.
Shoot to kill is the fucking problem here.
What lawsuit is better, the murder one or the "can't use my xxx" one?
 
ev13wt said:
So the justice system is fucked, dofferent problem. You should never shoot anyone in the back. Shit.
Shoot to kill is the fucking problem here.
What lawsuit is better, the murder one or the "can't use my xxx" one?
Click to expand...

The "we're defending ourselves from barbarism" one.
 
Pt_Ranger_v8 said:
They're wearing body armor. They know the risks.


Am I advocating for violence against cops?? Not at all.

Hold them to a higher standard. Pretty simple.
Click to expand...

Body armor is NOT an end all be all backup. Just ask Lt Aaron Allen's family. I knew him; hell I almost ended up having to transport him to the hospital. Find another fucking argument other than they're wearing body armor, they know the risks.

(Disclaimer; I do take that comment a bit personally.)
 
budget76 said:
after having my eyes opened to think about it, it does make me wonder how this didn't already exist today. It's not like the technology isn't out there - they've been doing it in the medical field for how long now??
Click to expand...

The same reason freight trains have drivers instead of computers: unions

Wess757 said:
IMO the real issue is that the officers that are being hired are under qualified, not properly trained, and not of the required temperament for the job. How many instances have we seen of officers planting evidence? How many times have officers failed to deescalate a situation? How many times have we seen officers serve a "no knock warrant" on the WRONG address? Admittedly, there are many other issues in policing, quotas among the most egregious, but I feel the standards are too low. In the words of my high school football coach, "If you can't cut the mustard. I guess you just gonna be a hot-dog."
Click to expand...

Plenty of industries train on the job and it's not a problem. If departments and their management had even a shred of accountability for how the beat cops act then you wouldn't see so many beat cops needlessly escalating situations because the ones that did would be a problem for management and they'd be let go or stuck on desk duty. Until people are held accountable for bad behavior the bad behavior will continue. Paying the cops more or doing it in a roundabout way by shoving the money at them in the form of training isn't gonna change shit if there's still no reason for cops to not escalate situations.
 
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Dennhop said:
Body armor is NOT an end all be all backup. Just ask Lt Aaron Allen's family. I knew him; hell I almost ended up having to transport him to the hospital. Find another fucking argument other than they're wearing body armor, they know the risks.

(Disclaimer; I do take that comment a bit personally.)
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Fair enough. I'm not trying to downplay anyone's experiences.

. I'm in the Air Force, and I don't see anyone bitching about the number of military dead in the last 20 years. The thing is, nobody bats an eye because 'you know the risks'.



Can't say it's not the same for cops. I'm not asking that they get shot.


The amount of impunity that officers have is far too high. They ENFORCE the rules, they're not above the rules. That's all I'm saying.
 
Man, I tried to find it with no luck. But I think it was in London where the police are unarmed. There was a dude with a machete and one by one the cops would go in to try to subdue him then retreat. One would go in, retreat, and another follow right behind. It was perfect for Benny Hill music.
 
I used to think being a cop sounded fun. But to make 30k-50k, be subjected to review over every move, micromanaged to the smallest extent, being held accountable by superiors talking out of both sides of their mouth, and being personally liable? Fuck that...you can make the same money with way less hassle slinging boxes for UPS or a ton of other jobs. I predict a much smaller applicant pool, and a much less capable police force moving forward after these laws are enacted.

And all this over what? A dead criminal. The cop responsible is in jail, the legal system works. Since when does America cave to terrorists? Because that's exactly what this shit is. Domestic terrorism with a list of demands that politicians, companies, individuals are just caving to. What a bunch of pussies.
 
Dead Pool said:
I used to think being a cop sounded fun. But to make 30k-50k, be subjected to review over every move, micromanaged to the smallest extent, being held accountable by superiors talking out of both sides of their mouth, and being personally liable? Fuck that...you can make the same money with way less hassle slinging boxes for UPS or a ton of other jobs. I predict a much smaller applicant pool, and a much less capable police force moving forward after these laws are enacted.
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Good. A "capable police force" with nothing to do is exactly what we have a problem with. Officer Lazy who's on his laptop doing admin work for his side business from his cruiser when he's supposed to be making fishing stops never got accused of wrongfully shooting anyone.
 
ev13wt said:
So the justice system is fucked, dofferent problem. You should never shoot anyone in the back. Shit.
Shoot to kill is the fucking problem here.
What lawsuit is better, the murder one or the "can't use my xxx" one?
Click to expand...

From the time a cop decides to shoot there is about a 1.5 -2.0 second lag to clear the holster and shoot. The person they are targeting can do all sorts of things in that time. Anything from charge them or turn and try to run. Or running to gain the space to pull a gun and shoot the officer with a Tazer which could lead to incapacitation and execution.

"Shoot to kill" is the only time they should be pulling their gun. When their life or someone elses is in immediate danger. "Shoot to wound" would lead to the next level of second guessing which would be "why did you have to wound him? Your life wasn't in danger..."
 
Dead Pool said:
I used to think being a cop sounded fun.
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why should being a cop be fun? it should be a respectable profession, but I feel like the ones calling it "fun" are the assholes shooting teargas into crowds of families or rubber bullets at press
 
arse_sidewards said:
Plenty of industries train on the job and it's not a problem. If departments and their management had even a shred of accountability for how the beat cops act then you wouldn't see so many beat cops needlessly escalating situations because the ones that did would be a problem for management and they'd be let go or stuck on desk duty. Until people are held accountable for bad behavior the bad behavior will continue. Paying the cops more or doing it in a roundabout way by shoving the money at them in the form of training isn't gonna change shit if there's still no reason for cops to not escalate situations.
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I can agree with that. Lack of accountability is the real issue. Joe Rogan had Ronnie Coleman on recently. Ronnie said when he was a cop, if one had 2-3 excessive force complaints they were off the job. I had no idea that dude was a cop while he was competing to be Mr. Olympia.
 
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