Thread full of dumb questions for Ultra4 racers

[flatlander757]

I've been out of the off roading world for a while now (sold my TJ on tons like 8 years ago), and after having done some HPDE/TT/road course stuff since then, I'm looking heavily at 4800 (and to a lesser extent, 4400) stuff to scratch the competitive itch. And also get back to building stuff.

I know going into any kind of series/etc stuff is expensive, but what are realistic cost breakdowns to run a year of U4? I can't sign up for Ultra4 to see entry fee costs/etc since I don't have a car built (yet). King of the Hammers would be the obvious goal to run, and 4800 has the appeal because you don't "need" to prequalify. Plus marginally lower costs due to the tire size, shocks, etc. though I'm sure that could be far outweighed by regular maintenance/breakage repairs The flipside of that is that a 4400 could be built a bit more capable to be a dual purpose trail rig as well.

Typical entry fees? Regular series/Nationals/KOH different I'm assuming?

Looking to do solid axles for cost/simplicity. Out of sheer curiosity, what NON-Ford 9/10in axles are people running successfully? I know Slawson ran a pair of Tundra 10.5 diffs for a year or two. Those seem neat since it's a low pinion but it's not too far off centerline. ARBs are made for them, but really I'd probably rather have spools for weight/simplicity - and of course nobody makes one.

Frankly the Gen-Right/Currie HP60/HP70 axles seem like a hell of a bargain when you start adding up the costs of everything needed to put a set together.

What about 9310 "soft" ring and pinions - how often are those getting replaced at $1200/set? That's probably my biggest reservation of committing to Ford 9in axles... at least since there's nothing in 8620 offered in HP configuration. LP rear would likely be fine.

Any input is appreciated.

There will be more questions as time goes on, so I'll probably bump this up from time to time to prevent from making a new one.

 

[Poke]

I've been out of the off roading world for a while now (sold my TJ on tons like 8 years ago), and after having done some HPDE/TT/road course stuff since then, I'm looking heavily at 4800 (and to a lesser extent, 4400) stuff to scratch the competitive itch. And also get back to building stuff.

I know going into any kind of series/etc stuff is expensive, but what are realistic cost breakdowns to run a year of U4? I can't sign up for Ultra4 to see entry fee costs/etc since I don't have a car built (yet). King of the Hammers would be the obvious goal to run, and 4800 has the appeal because you don't "need" to prequalify. Plus marginally lower costs due to the tire size, shocks, etc. though I'm sure that could be far outweighed by regular maintenance/breakage repairs The flipside of that is that a 4400 could be built a bit more capable to be a dual purpose trail rig as well.

There is no dual purpose. Toss that idea in the shitter. You will have a non-competitive vehicle great at nothing and a pain in the ass to wheel.

Cost? KOH alone cost $20,000 - $100,000 depending on your crew, RV's, work tents, gear, food, travel miles to and from, pits. If you live near by, don't factor in all the spare parts you will by in preparation, own an RV with a trailer, and your friends pay for there own food and drink.. $10-$15k might be possible. You cannot physically pack enough food, water for the 10+ days on the lake bed. You will be buying RV dumps, ice, rv water fills, etc.

Season. Travel is expensive, so it just depends. Every race was 3-5 days off work. I would average $3,000 if nothing on the car broke, just to prep it again after each race. If something broke it went up. If you did it the right way and rebuilt the tranny, engine check, and 3rds after each race its obviously more. I think it cost me $1500 per race in travel and food. In a season it's easy to spend $50,000... its also hard to only spend $50,000 because you know your budget is holding you back.

I was going to do it right, and its the only way I would race U4 again, I'd plan on $250,000 a year. And that's why I am not doing it now.

Typical entry fees? Regular series/Nationals/KOH different I'm assuming?

Looking to do solid axles for cost/simplicity. Out of sheer curiosity, what NON-Ford 9/10in axles are people running successfully? I know Slawson ran a pair of Tundra 10.5 diffs for a year or two. Those seem neat since it's a low pinion but it's not too far off centerline. ARBs are made for them, but really I'd probably rather have spools for weight/simplicity - and of course nobody makes one.

Frankly the Gen-Right/Currie HP60/HP70 axles seem like a hell of a bargain when you start adding up the costs of everything needed to put a set together.

What about 9310 "soft" ring and pinions - how often are those getting replaced at $1200/set? That's probably my biggest reservation of committing to Ford 9in axles... at least since there's nothing in 8620 offered in HP configuration. LP rear would likely be fine.

On top of the entry fees, which aren't bad, you have to buy the insurance they offer.

The only axles that I have seen live are Sterling 10.25 or 14 bolt rear axles and Front 14 bolts (not ideal for racing). I haven't seen a super duty racing myself. Drop out ring and pinions... order 2 fronts and 2 rears. Race, ship to Gearworks, put the extra in and repeat. If you want an actual spare to take racing then get 3 of each and rotate. I never broke a 14 bolt or Sterling with 650 HP and 43's or 40's. I also never broke a Gearworks HP 10". I saw a number of 9" stuff blow up.

I like racing on spools, not lockers.

Any input is appreciated.

There will be more questions as time goes on, so I'll probably bump this up from time to time to prevent from making a new one.

My last input. Prepare to be disappointed. Not with you or your racing but with others and how its handled. The cheating and rule favoritism can be demoralizing, or it was for me. Course cutting is racing at that level, its a game. Play it or don't, but you are at a disadvantage if you don't.

 

[flatlander757]

There is no dual purpose. Toss that idea in the shitter. You will have a non-competitive vehicle great at nothing and a pain in the ass to wheel.

Cost? KOH alone cost $20,000 - $100,000 depending on your crew, RV's, work tents, gear, food, travel miles to and from, pits. If you live near by, don't factor in all the spare parts you will by in preparation, own an RV with a trailer, and your friends pay for there own food and drink.. $10-$15k might be possible. You cannot physically pack enough food, water for the 10+ days on the lake bed. You will be buying RV dumps, ice, rv water fills, etc.

Season. Travel is expensive, so it just depends. Every race was 3-5 days off work. I would average $3,000 if nothing on the car broke, just to prep it again after each race. If something broke it went up. If you did it the right way and rebuilt the tranny, engine check, and 3rds after each race its obviously more. I think it cost me $1500 per race in travel and food. In a season it's easy to spend $50,000... its also hard to only spend $50,000 because you know your budget is holding you back.

I was going to do it right, and its the only way I would race U4 again, I'd plan on $250,000 a year. And that's why I am not doing it now.


On top of the entry fees, which aren't bad, you have to buy the insurance they offer.

The only axles that I have seen live are Sterling 10.25 or 14 bolt rear axles and Front 14 bolts (not ideal for racing). I haven't seen a super duty racing myself. Drop out ring and pinions... order 2 fronts and 2 rears. Race, ship to Gearworks, put the extra in and repeat. If you want an actual spare to take racing then get 3 of each and rotate. I never broke a 14 bolt or Sterling with 650 HP and 43's or 40's. I also never broke a Gearworks HP 10". I saw a number of 9" stuff blow up.

I like racing on spools, not lockers.


My last input. Prepare to be disappointed. Not with you or your racing but with others and how its handled. The cheating and rule favoritism can be demoralizing, or it was for me. Course cutting is racing at that level, its a game. Play it or don't, but you are at a disadvantage if you don't.

Well shit

The KOH costs seem about what I'd expect.

The seasonal/per race costs otherwise definitely have me rethinking my goals.

The thing about the Gearworks 10in diffs was what I was really curious about. That seems crazy that the ring and pinion are consumed THAT quickly .

Would it be ridiculous to build a trail rig with hopes of doing KOH just as an "also ran" to finish within the time limit? I guess perhaps the 4500/4600 classes are what that type of goal is more aimed for?

Edit: and thanks for the info! The cheating/rules favoritism seems a big turn off... There is a lot of that within NASA TT.

 

[Poke]

Well shit

The KOH costs seem about what I'd expect.

The seasonal/per race costs otherwise definitely have me rethinking my goals.

The thing about the Gearworks 10in diffs was what I was really curious about. That seems crazy that the ring and pinion are consumed THAT quickly .

They don’t necessarily get consumed or ruined. I’m giving you what the consistent top dogs do. I only ever used 1 set a year but nobody knows me for my podium finishes, so…

Would it be ridiculous to build a trail rig with hopes of doing KOH just as an "also ran" to finish within the time limit? I guess perhaps the 4500/4600 classes are what that type of goal is more aimed for?

No, not at all. It took me years and a few hundred grand to learn trying to win and racing are two different things and the minimum requirements of each are worlds apart. I have raced just to race and I’ve raced to win. Total different approach, effort, and budget.

Edit: and thanks for the info! The cheating/rules favoritism seems a big turn off... There is a lot of that within NASA TT.

Yeah… you need to try to win at all costs and hope you don’t get caught or play fair and most likely not have a chance.

 

[Provience]

Well shit

The KOH costs seem about what I'd expect.

The seasonal/per race costs otherwise definitely have me rethinking my goals.

The thing about the Gearworks 10in diffs was what I was really curious about. That seems crazy that the ring and pinion are consumed THAT quickly .

Would it be ridiculous to build a trail rig with hopes of doing KOH just as an "also ran" to finish within the time limit? I guess perhaps the 4500/4600 classes are what that type of goal is more aimed for?

Edit: and thanks for the info! The cheating/rules favoritism seems a big turn off... There is a lot of that within NASA TT.

if you finish in time in 4600, then you are on the podium at KOH. not many options there

I would love to do it and be an "also ran" and either break or time out, probably break, just because it would be fun looking back on. I'd also love to get to the point where I could do a full series, but not only do i not have a car, the car I am building is not competitive for any class, and while making a class dedicated race car would be a blast, it really does seem like a "team" sport where splitting the cost with some other person would be significantly better.

edit: i'm not a racer, just a person who likes to talk and has read as much as i reasonably can and tried to pencil it all out several times :laughing;

 

[Poke]

I don’t want to turn you off from it. Consider another series before walking away. pro rock is awesome.

Dave & JT have always been decent and fair to me. So try KOH.

 

[jeepkevin]

I friend and I decided to try the Ultra 4 series. We chose the 4900 sxs class. Bought a new RZR S Turbo for $20K, spent another $20K on trailer the full build out on the rig and all our safety gear and spare parts. We raced last year and KOH was our first race. I think something like 130 entered the class. We lost an axle shaft on qualifying and started like 80th or something. We made it to the last pits during main race and had timed out so drove back to main pits. We were 80th or something. Past a bunch and got passed a bunch. Car still ran and drove enjoyed some rec wheeling in it after race.

We raced the other races during the year, and then went to finals. We rolled bad at finals early on and it took us out. End result was something like 8th in the points championship for the year because we attended every race.

We learned so much at each race, met a ton of great people, Dave and JT are a hoot!! Warn gave us parts to fix broken winch because we race car peeps. Super ATV warrantied every bent arm and none of their component's ever failed during the race. We ran the stock Coyete tire? cause we get get new take off from craigslist for cheap. We upgraded to Raceline beadlocks cause we thought we had too, they held up great. We had no sponsors, paid for everything, car still hitting the trails for fun on regular basis.

Future hopes are to step up to 4600 stock class. After trying 4900, not dogging on it but a smaller class might give us a better shot at doing better. We are crawlers, going fast is a whole different game but Ultra 4 gives the rock guys a fighting chance.

 

[white-rhino]

A good friend started racing 4500 about 10 years ago. His comment to me after the first year has stuck for years........

"It didn't take me very long to figure out a well built trail rig is a poorly built race car"

 

[Treefrog]

It didn't take me very long to figure out a well built trail rig is a poorly built race car

This seems to be a common thing people say. Why is this? Is it the suspension, engine needs, overall part strength, the need for storage space on a trail rig, etc.? Or is it just the cost difference between a normal trail rig and a competitive car in any class?

 

[JohnnyJ]

This seems to be a common thing people say. Why is this? Is it the suspension, engine needs, overall part strength, the need for storage space on a trail rig, etc.? Or is it just the cost difference between a normal trail rig and a competitive car in any class?

Because you'll beat on your race car unlike any trail ride you've ever done. Unless you bought a retired race car, likely it has lots of corners cut that mean nothing for a trail rig; but will quickly be outed on the first lap of your first race. And if you bought a retired race car.. you just might see why it was retired.

If I were to dip my toe back in it again; I'd likely keep an eye out for a decent used car that still doing well. I would tear the car down in the off season and properly fix all the stuff that had been "fixed" to get through the season. I'd replace every consumable part. I would have someone go through the engine and trans. I would make sure the wiring is up to snuff, and look for any maintenance issues during tear down and see if I could fix them. Stuff like hoses that have rub marks or burns, chaffed wires, etc.

I would skip KOH as my first race. For a first race start with a regional. There are a million fewer moving parts than KOH at a regional.

I would likely run 4800. 4600 rarely has a large class and you'll pay nearly the same to prep a car as the 4500/4800 cars. The 4800 class seems to be able to go faster than most 4500; unless the 4500 car has major backer like Savvy that actually tunes the shit out of their car. I figure 4400 is out of the question, because you didn't just reach out to the top builders and order a car; so I'm guessing you have a budget.

Also find some friends that are willing to help. Don't be shocked if you burn them out and need to find new ones as time goes by. Make sure you have people stopping by that are detail oriented and not just there to lean on the car and drink your beer. Oh, and publicly thank them. Seriously.

 

[tribal4krawler]

First of all - unless you literally just want to say you race 4400 (or have a couple million to blow), get rid of that idea entirely. Yes, you can buy a semi decent 4400 for around 100k, but it will NOT be competitive against the fun havers, horschel, campbells, etc. you might be able to get a top 10 at a regional race if you were a great driver and had a top notch prep.

4800 is much the same way - a lot of those drivers could easily compete in 4400 and the competition is very tight. It’s still possible to buy a high quality car for sub 100k and be a podium finisher.

4500 starts getting a little “easier” as most people just go into 4400 rather than 4500, this is the class I’m doing now.

4600 is a lot of fun, and can be affordable - I had about 35k into the Manche, but I was able to reuse some parts from my old XJ crawler to save some money. The problem with 4600 is that in order to win, you have to be willing to destroy your truck every race. Your truck gets destroyed because of the body/suspension limitations and forcing the vehicle to go beyond its capabilities at speed.

4900 is easily the cheapest form of racing to get into, but you get a bunch of “squids” who simply had decent credit and financed a car and have no experience or business being on a race track. I’d say most 4900 fields consistof at least 25% squids. They don’t know how to work on their vehicles and if they break they’re instant trail plugs. Beyond that, it’s great racing and much faster and capable than 4600.

Travel/race entry/race prep is something that most don’t think about - in 2019 racing 4900 which was our busiest year of racing I spent at least 30k. If we won a race, we got our race entry back, didn’t pay for any of the fuel/food/race prep. We got 2nd at Teardown in TN in the Manche (4600) - race entry/insurance was about $850 bucks. Fuel/food/drinks from Houston to TN was about 3K. Race prep was about $1k (mostly heims/fluids/filter/etc) so call it total $5k to race and we got $150 and a really sweet Ultra4 2nd place trophy.

Going forward as we transition into 4500 - the plan is going to be just to race the “cool” races that I WANT to race, not chase points or any of that silly stuff that truly doesn’t matter. We’ll race KOH, maybe Sturgis and Crandon, and also some BITD stuff. I’m interested in trying some of the straight desert stuff for shits and giggles.

 

[flatlander757]

Awesome, thanks guys. I'm definitely looking harder at some of the other classes now as well.

 

[G23crawler]

Thought I would jump in as I was in the same place as you 6 months ago.. Maybe some hope for some as I'm only 25..
Iv built/ wheeled rigs for awhile now. Finally decided I wanted to jump up to something big. Searched for months and bought a used 4800 car.
I found what I thought was a really well built rig (new 418 ls3 stroker, 40 spline spidertrax axles, bilet th350, race atlas, 3.0 king IBP etc..) This car has raced since 2013 almost every year in KOH. It was already banded and grandfathered in. I picked it up for $37k. Now it did need some refreshing and I had to travel 3k miles to get it. I trail wheel mine often, can it be done? Yes. Is it fun? No. I had to come to the conclusion of keeping it strictly a race car. I decided to ride along with friends or build a cheep weekend rig. This game is expensive, but there is some hope. I probably have 45K in everything and that's race ready. BUT with no major spare parts... I have a few tires, drive shafts, axle shafts etc. Anything major breaks I may be down for awhile. I also started out with just a flatbed and sleeping in tents. I now have a nice enclosed coming soon ($15k). Luckily I am in Nebraska which means most of the races are 1200 to 1700 miles for me ( $300-$500 truck fuel). Nationals next weekend will cost me probably $800 in fuel and food. The race entry fee is $690. I also am use to roughing it, ham&cheese and Busch light keeps me going.
My biggest complaint is Ultra4 IMO does a terrible job of structuring and planning events. I'm 7 days away from leaving and I don't even know where the campground is at nations, no map or anything. They don't have a schedule out for more than 2 races, hard to plan work around that. I had no idea what insurance I needed. I'm not trying to complain because I know its a lot of work to run this and I would rather have it than not. But it does get extremely intimidating for new guys ( or I thought so). Hopefully this helps, this sport is very friendly and will help you if they can. A good way to get involved is to see if anyone needs pit help. Help them for the weekend for free in exchange for knowledge.

 

[tribal4krawler]

Thought I would jump in as I was in the same place as you 6 months ago.. Maybe some hope for some as I'm only 25..
Iv built/ wheeled rigs for awhile now. Finally decided I wanted to jump up to something big. Searched for months and bought a used 4800 car.
I found what I thought was a really well built rig (new 418 ls3 stroker, 40 spline spidertrax axles, bilet th350, race atlas, 3.0 king IBP etc..) This car has raced since 2013 almost every year in KOH. It was already banded and grandfathered in. I picked it up for $37k. Now it did need some refreshing and I had to travel 3k miles to get it. I trail wheel mine often, can it be done? Yes. Is it fun? No. I had to come to the conclusion of keeping it strictly a race car. I decided to ride along with friends or build a cheep weekend rig. This game is expensive, but there is some hope. I probably have 45K in everything and that's race ready. BUT with no major spare parts... I have a few tires, drive shafts, axle shafts etc. Anything major breaks I may be down for awhile. I also started out with just a flatbed and sleeping in tents. I now have a nice enclosed coming soon ($15k). Luckily I am in Nebraska which means most of the races are 1200 to 1700 miles for me ( $300-$500 truck fuel). Nationals next weekend will cost me probably $800 in fuel and food. The race entry fee is $690. I also am use to roughing it, ham&cheese and Busch light keeps me going.
My biggest complaint is Ultra4 IMO does a terrible job of structuring and planning events. I'm 7 days away from leaving and I don't even know where the campground is at nations, no map or anything. They don't have a schedule out for more than 2 races, hard to plan work around that. I had no idea what insurance I needed. I'm not trying to complain because I know its a lot of work to run this and I would rather have it than not. But it does get extremely intimidating for new guys ( or I thought so). Hopefully this helps, this sport is very friendly and will help you if they can. A good way to get involved is to see if anyone needs pit help. Help them for the weekend for free in exchange for knowledge.

Camping at Nationals is pretty simple, there’s a dedicated Ultra4 campground where the crossbar folks will direct you to. It’s hard to miss. While I get what you’re saying, I will say this; they are GREAT about answering questions if you ask. Call, email, fb msg, etc. if you’re having a specific problem or question and not getting a response, pm me and I’ll help get you in touch with the right person. That goes for any Irate member. Sounds like you got a good deal, hopefully it works out for you. Doing as much preventative maintenance between every race will be your friend and key to keeping components alive. Good luck!