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Steering and brake upgrades for older tow rigs

YotaAtieToo

YotaAtieToo

Thick skull
Joined
May 19, 2020
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142
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11,222
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Bonners Ferry, ID
I think a fair amount of us are still running 20+ year old tow rigs.

My 97 F350 is about as reliable as a hammer and will pull 14-16k pretty decent for what it is. Steering and brakes leave a lot to be desired. I adjusted the steering box and replaced the entire tie rod and drag link assembly years ago and it didn't seem to help much with play. I have the tie rod ends rolled opposite as much as possible to help with tie rod roll. Maybe it's time to replace the box and steering shaft? (340k)

Brakes are equally as bad, even a single quick stop with a little weight behind it I can feel them fade as I'm slowing. I would like to go hydro boost as I've heard that is a huge difference. There was also some one who had put late model calipers and rotors on my style front end, just been holding off on that due to not wanting to get rid of my factory alcoas.

The other end is just stock drums, which can work fine, but also are a pain to service compared to disc. I could get a disc 10.5, machine the hugs to 8x6.5 and run E350 rotors, but I'm not sure if it's a huge upgrade in stopping power. The one guy I know who swapped a drum rear for a disc rear said he noticed no difference at all :laughing:

Anyone have any other tricks? I remember someone saying to actually bleed all the brake fluid out of you system and replace with new? Better pads and rotors?
 
modern stock dodge stuff remained 8x6.5 and uses 14" rotors if you want a fairly off the shelf solution. it will likely require turning down the hub snout and possibly some adapting for the caliper mounts, but those are arguably easier than modifying the bolt pattern. one and done, hubs wear out much less than rotors.

i don't know if you can swap the dodge hubs onto the ford front axle, but if so, that would be the easiest path forward.

increased pressure is going to make the largest difference in braking power which is why the hydroboost always wins out first and foremost, everything else is just dealing with the resulting heat, more or less.

rear disc vs drum is a looks and maintenance preference.

better pads and new stock rotors would be a big help, and cahnging all the fluid after doing that. also replace the rubber line with new or swap it out for a braided line, but even just going new rubber will help.
 
I concur the 97 & older Ford D60 brake suck. I am running 95-97 F350 D60 outer on my 97 Dodge Ram. A hard stop while towing is all it take to trash the thin OE rotor. I ditched the OE rotor & caliper, used ~2015 Ram 2500 rotors turned down a little to clear ~ 2015 E350 brake calipers. I used different lug studs, pressed in the hub and rotor is slide-on. OEM steel 16" wheel still fit over them.

Not perfect but still last way longer than OE Ford D60 brakes.
 
Provience said:
modern stock dodge stuff remained 8x6.5 and uses 14" rotors if you want a fairly off the shelf solution. it will likely require turning down the hub snout and possibly some adapting for the caliper mounts, but those are arguably easier than modifying the bolt pattern. one and done, hubs wear out much less than rotors.

i don't know if you can swap the dodge hubs onto the ford front axle, but if so, that would be the easiest path forward.

increased pressure is going to make the largest difference in braking power which is why the hydroboost always wins out first and foremost, everything else is just dealing with the resulting heat, more or less.

rear disc vs drum is a looks and maintenance preference.

better pads and new stock rotors would be a big help, and cahnging all the fluid after doing that. also replace the rubber line with new or swap it out for a braided line, but even just going new rubber will help.
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Newer dodge rotors is what I was referring to, I'm glad he chimed in right after you. Believe it or not the late model Ford calipers kept the same bolt pattern, similar to how easy the Tundra brakes are on older pickups and 4runners.

My truck is ball joint, but still has a live spindle. So adapting a newer dodge unit bearing would be a chore.

Hydro boost is high on the list, fortunately my same body style F-super duty (basically pre 99 F450) used hydro boost, so the swap is fairly straightforward.

Replacing 25 year old rubber lines is a good idea also, never even thought about it :laughing:
TrailTamer said:
I concur the 97 & older Ford D60 brake suck. I am running 95-97 F350 D60 outer on my 97 Dodge Ram. A hard stop while towing is all it take to trash the thin OE rotor. I ditched the OE rotor & caliper, used ~2015 Ram 2500 rotors turned down a little to clear ~ 2015 E350 brake calipers. I used different lug studs, pressed in the hub and rotor is slide-on. OEM steel 16" wheel still fit over them.

Not perfect but still last way longer than OE Ford D60 brakes.
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You were the one I was thinking of. Wasn't the first version with the un turned 15 dodge rotors and F350 calipers? You had to turn the hub down a little for the dodge rotors right?

Interesting that 16s fit, is it so close that the stock aluminum wheels won't clear?
 
340K on the steering box? You're on borrowed time.

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It's not a matter of if, it's when. Fortunately they always seem to go 8n a parking lot.
 
I’ll give you $3.50 for the truck... you can upgrade.

problem solved.
:flipoff2:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Wasn't the first version with the un turned 15 dodge rotors and F350 calipers? You had to turn the hub down a little for the dodge rotors right?
Interesting that 16s fit, is it so close that the stock aluminum wheels won't clear?
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My first version is with E350, with the E, caliper. I have not found a rotor I can use as-is yet. Neither ‘15 Ram 2500 or ‘15 F250 rotors fits as-is with either ~2013 and newer F250/350 or E350 calipers. They are close to fit as-is but doesn’t.

yes I turn hubs’ flanges slightly via angle grinders (spinning by itself as the grinder grind it down), easy to do.


I just went out to take a picture. OEM Dodge Ram 16” spare steel wheel.
 

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swap in an 05+ front axle, iirc 11+ got even bigger brakes, but you need some stupid big wheels
superduty steering box pretty much bolts in too

ETA: if its DRW see if you can find the wide track front end, that'll get you even more steering angle before the tires meet the radarms
 
[486] said:
swap in an 05+ front axle, iirc 11+ got even bigger brakes, but you need some stupid big wheels
superduty steering box pretty much bolts in too

ETA: if its DRW see if you can find the wide track front end, that'll get you even more steering angle before the tires meet the radarms
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I like my simple leafs.

2011+ should still be 17s. My 2018 F250 company truck had steel 17s. Not sure if a srw F350 is any different.
 
TrailTamer said:
My first version is with E350, with the E, caliper. I have not found a rotor I can use as-is yet. Neither ‘15 Ram 2500 or ‘15 F250 rotors fits as-is with either ~2013 and newer F250/350 or E350 calipers. They are close to fit as-is but doesn’t.

yes I turn hubs’ flanges slightly via angle grinders (spinning by itself as the grinder grind it down), easy to do.


I just went out to take a picture. OEM Dodge Ram 16” spare steel wheel.
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So you have to take a hair off the OD of the rotor?

Was it a pretty noticeable change in braking power?
 
bdkw1 said:
340K on the steering box? You're on borrowed time.



It's not a matter of if, it's when. Fortunately they always seem to go 8n a parking lot.
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mine(dodge) did that when going through the gate to my driveway :laughing:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
So you have to take a hair off the OD of the rotor?

Was it a pretty noticeable change in braking power?
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I ground OD down to fins If I remember correctly.

Can’t remember how it compare to previous brake set up. Best I can remember that it didn’t make a huge difference. I suppose the hydrobooster make it not as obvious on how much effort I need to mash the pedal to stop.

I possibly have something else going on with my truck as the rear drum brakes always lock up long before front will, so I don’t know.
 
Hydroboost made a huge difference on my 95 F350 with otherwise stock brakes.
 
Well, I loved my cclb OBS on 37s, then bought a duramax truck to fix and sell, and had a medium duty tow truck at the same time, I realized just how out of date the obs steering and brakes were. One of the factors that lead me to keep the Chevy instead

My next obs cclb will be on a super duty chassis, with hydroboost, no question about it.

Mine will get a Cummins swap at the same time, so starting with the better chassis is a no brainer


Edit: in the meantime, do the hydroboost for sure. It'll make your future body swap that much faster:flipoff2:
 

Toyota Pickup Brake Bible - 4x4 North

www.forum.4x4north.com

i'm going to :spam: this thread in here as well, most of the beginning of it is toyota specific, but the second half is broadly applicable.

key take-away, all things held constant, an extra 1" in rotor diameter (which is really caliper mounting pad centerline radius) will net about a 25% increase in max braking torque.

it is much easier to increase you input force to your stock system by upgrading your booster, from vacuum to hydroboost. as an example, going from a single 9" booster to a dual 10" booster nets a similar something like 25% increase in supplied pressure for the same pedal input force. (working off memory) do the math and it is pretty easy to see how you can get more than 25% increase in pressure for a given input force by going to a hydroboost. added bonus, it works all the time and will result in noticeably lower pressure for most every stopping event.

these numbers are all part of the long formula so they don't add straight across, a 25% increase in effective radius + a 25% increase in boost effort is not a 50% increase in braking torque, it is a 25*25% increase, so something less than 50%.

heat capacity is the greatest gain from the larger rotors, but that won't be noticeable until you are really working the system. depending on your brake pads, you may be able to run the 'stock' brakes pretty damned hot before you would really have some serious concerns, or you may trash them every other trip over the mountains. i dunno. if you feel you are trashing them due to heat absorbtion regularly, then seriously look into larger rotors. if you are not trashing a cheap set every year or less, then crank up the line pressure and pads until you are happy or you are trashihng rotors.

you can get over 25% increase in braking torque by using higher end pads. hydrboost+good pads = until you are tearing up rotors is the easiest and cheapest "step up" way without going full custom and whole hog from the get go.


and i think i just talked myself into keeping my 16.5" rims at the same time :rasta:
 
Again, 97 and older Ford D60 brakes suck for towing lol. They're THIN! Doesn't take much to get them so hot and start to fade (scary when you're standing on the pedal and it do nothing), and warped to shit afterward.

They're only about 1.15" thick. A rotor with at least 1.5" thick even with same diameter will make for an excellent upgrade, IMHO.

also, fun fact: stock 94-99 2nd gen Dodge Rams' single piston caliper have more surface area than Ford's dual piston caliper. :homer:
 
TrailTamer said:
also, fun fact: stock 94-99 2nd gen Dodge Rams' single piston caliper have more surface area than Ford's dual piston caliper. :homer:
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Those suck balls too! I have almost died in one of those shitboxs with the pedal mashed to the floor. If it hadn't been a stick with a Jake brake I wouldn't have made the corner at the bottom of the hill.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Lifted woop scissors part of the problem? :flipoff2:
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This.

Someone's side loading the shit out of that arm to get it to crack.

I spent a lot of time handing around E-series box trucks that spent a lot of time being driven by 20-somethings on rural dirt roads.

These were the kind of vehicles people "accidentally" took straight over the infield of a roundabout. I may or may not have encouraged this kind of behavior.

Saw extruded radius arm bushings. Saw bent drag links. I never saw that failure mode. And all these vehicles had 200-400k on the clock.
 
I had a 97 cummins. I learned that you can swap an engine into a newer truck, but you cant swap a newer truck around the engine.

Id pony up for an 05+ truck in config you want, and swap the engine.

or sign a note for a new truck. because 700 dollars a month to save me endless headache is worth it.:flipoff2:
 
I have the same problem with my 86 K30 that has a Cummins and 245x19.5 tires make the problem worse. I was at 24k lbs most of the time and had to replace the brakes several times. A trip over Monteagle mountain would usually require new brakes afterwards. I retired the truck from heavy towing now so the brakes are adequate for lighter stuff. I had thought about putting a D80 disk brake rear from a Dodge under it since the rear drums are such a PIA.
 
montrose818 said:
I had a 97 cummins. I learned that you can swap an engine into a newer truck, but you cant swap a newer truck around the engine.

Id pony up for an 05+ truck in config you want, and swap the engine.

or sign a note for a new truck. because 700 dollars a month to save me endless headache is worth it.:flipoff2:
Click to expand...

I've driven the newer stuff quite a bit, so I'm well aware of the differences. My wife's 15 2.7 F150 will pretty much own my 97 in a lot of ways except all put weight carrying.

I'm not expecting an entire new truck, but I figure if I can upgrade as I go, why not? I don't plan to get rid of the truck. I'd already have the bigger brakes if it wasn't for needing new tires and wheels. Maybe I should just grab one of the E350 calipers and do a test fit.
 
arse_sidewards said:
No but it makes those glazed to fuck pads grab better.:laughing:
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uh
no
they says right in the OP that they got good brakes until they get hot
these trucks got similar sized brake rotors to your subaru
especially if they're chinese shit rotors that got more ventilation than iron in the middle

that reminds me: Parts store rotors or good ones?
some of them got a 5/8" air gap in the middle, some of them got 5/16" with the rest being iron
you do not care about airflow, you want iron
 
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