Small enclosed 'shop' in an 'open' car port, bad idea?

[Lil'John]

As part of the 2024 new year, I want to get some 'cheap' covered storage to partially hide projects and keep them out of the weather. And I want semi weather proof area to do mild car work. Security isn't part of the plan nor is tool/parts storage.

Short:
Is putting a small(10'x25') fully enclosed 'shop'/garage inside a 40'x60' open air carport a bad idea?

My plan was to do more of an 'open' car port or RV port then flesh it out. Here is a picture of lot with perfect MS Paint building:

To give some description of the above mess.

Front to back is about 60' for depth. I can fudge that +/- five feet. With a little excavation, I can get it out to 70 to 75'. There is actually concrete at the front edge today.

Width will be about 40' between blue vertical lines. The right blue line will be closer to the hill than my drawing shows.

I put open in quotes but the reality is I plan to do partial enclosed; the back will be sheeted to the ground. The reason for the partial enclosure is I have a 'major' roadway that runs past my house and I'd like a little privacy of rigs in it.

The front edge will be open except for about 10' at the right as shown by the large red X... might be the garage door to a shop.

The uphill side(right) will have metal coming down from the roof line to maybe 5' from the ground. The left side will have paved section for trailers storage/etc.

At some point in the future, I will add an enclosed and insulated shop area against the uphill side of the car port(right). It will be about 10' x 25'. I don't believe I need bigger since it will be a car in the middle with nothing else around the edges.

The reason for going car port/rv port style is I believe a car port/rv port is going to be significantly cheaper than a full blow red steel fully enclosed building plus I can do some of it in steps(main structure, extra walls, small shop). The building will be on poured footer with the interior being compacted gravel for now. The small shop will get a concrete floor.

Here is a picture from satellite for same mess:

Red lines are still enclosed/partial enclosed. Black line will be mostly open. Right of that will be trailer storage section... maybe 10 feet from black line is downhill. The blue and green areas are proposed enclosed 'shop' areas. For scale, the concrete between the red and black lines is right around 40'.

I'm located in BFE Sierra foothills so 'shipping' and similar have to be accounted for... same issue with any contractor help.

Current plan for this is:
Sell old house early in 2024
Getting building ordered shortly after and pull permits (yeah, Calif stuff)
Get foundation poured while waiting for building
Rent or borrow a tractor to stand up framing

 

[PAToyota]

I see partially enclosed pole barns all the time for a variety of reasons.

The only thing I'd caution on is you mention having the back wall sheeted and then the "shop" on the side wall. I have seen issues where wind catches into a corner and rips panels off where there are either two side with a corner or three sides enclosed with the fourth open and prevailing winds come from the open side. I actually see that quite a bit during construction when contractors aren't paying attention to weather and only get some of the building enclosed.

As for doing it in stages to save money - get the estimates for what you want to do and also the full enclosure. Particularly if you're shipping to BFE, it may be more cost effective to get the whole enclosure all at once - or that the difference in price isn't worth considering. Also, if you're having someone do the work for you the mobilization costs are typically the same for a partial building as a full building. I've had people spend a lot more money doing things in stages when doing it all at once would have cheaper in the long run.

 

[Lil'John]

PAToyota great info. I like the provided pictures as a concept. I would want one of the sides sheeted about 4' down from the roof.

I didn't consider the 'wind catch' effect for a single side. And the wind does go north-south or south-north into the back wall. But that should be mitigated by proper framing and attachment.

Doing it in stages wasn't exactly to save money. It was to build what I can afford at a given time: Do full outer shell with back wall for rigidity. Add road side and front wall. Add in enclosed section.

Doing the outer shell gives me about 80% of what I need 'right now'; partial weather secure car storage and car work area. I currently have zero covered place for emergency fixes in winter. It beyond fucking sucks to lay in snow or mud crawling around under the truck

 

[PAToyota]

I didn't consider the 'wind catch' effect for a single side. And the wind does go north-south or south-north into the back wall. But that should be mitigated by proper framing and attachment.

Planning for it can help, but it seems we've been getting stronger winds around here in recent years. Things that "have been fine for the past thirty years" are suddenly having issues.

It beyond fucking sucks to lay in snow or mud crawling around under the truck

Amen!

 

[SomeGuyFromOlympia]

I left one open bay in my shop thinking that I would use it as a car port/tractor port

I now have it enclosed with tarps trying to make it into what I should have done in the first place

The great thing about pole buildings, you can build them in stages if you have to
You will always want more indoor real estate

 

[PAE]

Cheapest container design I could find.

Standing seam roof material is about 5k for enough to cover 40x18x2.

 

[Lil'John]

I only want a one car 'shop' for doing extended downtime work and 'immediate' project parts storage.

I just need a 'large' place to store other vehicles(six cars). Thus a large roofed carport with two sides closed/partially closed for privacy more than anything.

Parts and tool storage will be in my basement: 44'x11' sheet rocked with 2' deep pallet racking all over.

PAE, I priced some of the container type designs. Even if I could get over the sweating/"unusable" storage of the containers, they weren't cost effective last I looked. About 2-3k per 20'.... so to do ~60' long covered area, I'm looking at 120' of cargo containers: $12k-$18k And would still have to figure out how to get them out to me. No roof included.

Last time I priced out opened ended but covered sides around 35'x60', it was ~$25k to my door. My intention is concrete footer to secure the whole thing down.

 

[Lil'John]

Bringing this to the current for a bit more discussion. To rephrase from first post: the initial build is to get me a non-heated enclosure for storing vehicles. Eventual add will be an enclosed 'work area' for a single vehicle.

I am a bit curious about opinions and/or experiences with quonset hut style buildings; these are the accordion looking buildings. A classic example:

I know that usual complaint is the edges are not usable. I have found that there are different styles that fix that issue:

My intention is to put any building on a footer that is at least 1' above grade and extends below the frost line. This is to push any structure out of the 'light' snow I get; 3-4' accumulated at a time.

So the good I've read is: cheaper to buy kit and easier to setup.

The bad I've read is: limited height vs width, potentially 'weaker', and no easy insulation.

I've pulled apart a 60'x16' carport with two other people and it wasn't horrible. But it feels like slightly more effort than quonset. Structural steel looks like even less DIY assembly.

 

[Etyler2]

That partial pole barn is freakin’ awesome. My previous house had a 2 sided carport and I loved it.

Granted I was 15 years younger and the weather didnt bother me as much.

 

[TRINDU]

its an absolute waste to have a slab with a roof, and it not enclosed.

 

[arse_sidewards]

its an absolute waste to have a slab with a roof, and it not enclosed.

In places with actual weather no walls keep it from accumulating junk like a shop space does.

 

[Lil'John]

its an absolute waste to have a slab with a roof, and it not enclosed.

Not sure where I said I was slabbing the full thing Orig post said I was pouring footer for whole structure and concrete in enclosed area.

But I would disagree with your statement. Doing mild work on concrete even uncovered or partially covered beats the fuck out of dirt or compact rocks; a creeper or floor jack is a nightmare.

But to extend your thought process, a concrete or other hard surfaced driveway is a waste also

 

[PAE]

If nothing else its a good surface to work on trucks, cars etc with or without walls.

Yes its better more secure protection against the elements but still better with a concrete pad, 6-8" IMO.

its an absolute waste to have a slab with a roof, and it not enclosed.

 

[Etyler2]

its an absolute waste to have a slab with a roof, and it not enclosed.

We don’t have any weather for a full 7 months here. I loved my carport. Even in winter it faced Southwest and the rain and snow would only encroach 2 feet on the slab.

Could pressure wash under the roof, leave told and stuff out, make messes and hose them away.

 

[OX1]

While building my pole barn, it took a while to get the elec service in, which was going right through the middle of pole barn floor.
So I basically had an enclosed building with dirt/sand floor. At first, I left doors open, but then tons of birds started making nests.
I closed all the doors and then had pretty bad mold up in the trusses. My property has a swampy stream close to the barn,
and is surrounded by trees, and never really dries out.

Anyway, not sure on the amount of moisture you get, but I would not enclose anything without a real floor, and even with that, I
would put a nice thick liner under the concrete (if your property is anything like mine). This liner is pool liner thickness/construction, and
supposed to be imperious to concrete long term. I've seen some thinner liners, but was not convinced they would not be full of holes with mesh and/or poking around while pouring floor.

I do have a 3 sided car port for the DD. It has the mobile home anchors and meets "code" for metal thicknesses, number of supports, and additional braces. Last couple years, we've even had some mini-tornadoes in Jersey. Pretty sure my own property has seen 70-80 MPH gusts at some point since I put this thing up. Anyway, so far, so good.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

I think you're fine in that climate to have open sides. I've got a 3 sided canopy with one long direction open, and an open doorway on one side. Make large overhangs to keep water away.

The downfalls are wind driven rain/snow. Condensation when the roof has snow and air temperature is warm with humidity. Leaves. Cold sucks.

What I like is working out there on a nice day it's very enjoyable. Blowing dirt right off the pad/pressure washing. Hanging out under it in a thunderstorm.

 

[Rockwood]

Since you're in CA, permit-wise...

Helluva lot easier/cheaper to permit a carport that's open (and enclose it later) than it is a fully enclosed shop. "Ag building" is generally what guys try and do.

 

[buzzbombxj]

Having helped with engine swaps, clutches, suspension work on gravel, just having pavement is a huge difference. If you are doing it in stages you can concrete first and put one of those fairly cheap metal carports on part of it.

Also watching this thread because you live in one of the best areas on earth, in my opinion.

 

[Hooligan]

When dreaming, this is the style I’m after, a shaded cement pad, can wash stuff off or weld outside. Could leave stuff under the awning so the sun doesn’t make it as hot as the fricken oven.

 

[Lil'John]

Since you're in CA, permit-wise...

Helluva lot easier/cheaper to permit a carport that's open (and enclose it later) than it is a fully enclosed shop. "Ag building" is generally what guys try and do.

I'll have to look at the 'Ag building' up here in El Dorado county. I couldn't find shit on their website But I'm not expecting the permit part of it to be a huge cost. Just a 'slow down' in having to wait for inspector to come up the hill and maybe ending up being a nit-picker that will slow it down more.

Having helped with engine swaps, clutches, suspension work on gravel, just having pavement is a huge difference. If you are doing it in stages you can concrete first and put one of those fairly cheap metal carports on part of it.

Also watching this thread because you live in one of the best areas on earth, in my opinion.

Being a stone's throw from prime wheeling(Rubicon, Hell Hole, and Fordyce) plus light snow(4' accumulated) is about the only thing keeping me here... well, that and the 'locked' in assessed property value.

I'm hoping to go with coverage before concrete... trying to get projects under cover and 'hidden'. Although, I might have a small section of it paved at same time as footer in prep of indoor enclosed area.

For what it is worth, here is last year facing toward shop area:

The gray blob(s10) is roughly where the uphill section starts in the OP picture. Having worked in snow like this, it sucks and is 80% of why I'm trying to get something covered at the bare minimum Normally, I can get another 2-3' of accumulated snow... not much compared to northern folks but enough for other Calif folks in the area to go nuts

Right now, my steps/thought process on this project is:
1) Find/buy "cheap" outbuilding. It is looking like I can get away with 30'x70'... I may have a line on an 18'x65' but haven't checked if it is still available. Going 30' leaves me about 14' on down hill side for other stuff.
2) Get footer and small section poured.
3) Stand up building.
4) Get signed off permit wise.
5) Look at enclosed interior section.

 

[Rockwood]

I'll have to look at the 'Ag building' up here in El Dorado county. I couldn't find shit on their website But I'm not expecting the permit part of it to be a huge cost. Just a 'slow down' in having to wait for inspector to come up the hill and maybe ending up being a nit-picker that will slow it down more.


Being a stone's throw from prime wheeling(Rubicon, Hell Hole, and Fordyce) plus light snow(4' accumulated) is about the only thing keeping me here... well, that and the 'locked' in assessed property value.

I'm hoping to go with coverage before concrete... trying to get projects under cover and 'hidden'. Although, I might have a small section of it paved at same time as footer in prep of indoor enclosed area.

For what it is worth, here is last year facing toward shop area:

The gray blob(s10) is roughly where the uphill section starts in the OP picture. Having worked in snow like this, it sucks and is 80% of why I'm trying to get something covered at the bare minimum Normally, I can get another 2-3' of accumulated snow... not much compared to northern folks but enough for other Calif folks in the area to go nuts

Right now, my steps/thought process on this project is:
1) Find/buy "cheap" outbuilding. It is looking like I can get away with 30'x70'... I may have a line on an 18'x65' but haven't checked if it is still available. Going 30' leaves me about 14' on down hill side for other stuff.
2) Get footer and small section poured.
3) Stand up building.
4) Get signed off permit wise.
5) Look at enclosed interior section.

Here in San Diego County, the fee schedule and inspection requirements are a lot more friendly.

 

[Lil'John]

Here in San Diego County, the fee schedule and inspection requirements are a lot more friendly.

I don't know how bad El Dorado County inspectors are. I've dealt with both extremes of inspectors:
In Santa Clara County, the guy would pull out a tape measure to check nailing schedule If it failed, he would stop immediately and walk away without checking the rest of the site
In Placerville, it was more laid back.

 

[Rockwood]

I don't know how bad El Dorado County inspectors are. I've dealt with both extremes of inspectors:
In Santa Clara County, the guy would pull out a tape measure to check nailing schedule If it failed, he would stop immediately and walk away without checking the rest of the site
In Placerville, it was more laid back.

I assume you guys have the same fireproof materials bullshit we have here in rural SD. Basically forces you into metal, otherwise you'll spend eleventy gajillion dollars on hardie siding.

 

[Lil'John]

I assume you guys have the same fireproof materials bullshit we have here in rural SD. Basically forces you into metal, otherwise you'll spend eleventy gajillion dollars on hardie siding.

I'm not sure if there was a fireproof requirement or not. This outbuilding will be metal so I'm not worried on that. The eventual fully enclosed area may be wood. I'm not 100% sure.

My house is going from t1-11 to a hardie alternative.

 

[u2slow]

Short:
Is putting a small(10'x25') fully enclosed 'shop'/garage inside a 40'x60' open air carport a bad idea?

My plan was to do more of an 'open' car port or RV port then flesh it out. Here is a picture of lot with perfect MS Paint building:

Build the shop part at the same time. Thats because it will contribute to the shear and bracing required for the overall structure.

 

[Lil'John]

Build the shop part at the same time. Thats because it will contribute to the shear and bracing required for the overall structure.

I definitely understand the shear and bracing thought.

But I would hope that whatever carport/quanset/structural steel building doesn't need that additional help. If I leave open at both ends, I've seen they usually have bracing right at the transition from vert to roof line.

 

[u2slow]

I definitely understand the shear and bracing thought.

But I would hope that whatever carport/quanset/structural steel building doesn't need that additional help.

Its not for extra help - you put it here, or put it there kind of thing.

The exception would be if this shop space portion is temporary. Then you want the greater structure self-supporting.

Mine is stick-built, but similar issue. Had to build more up-front because phase 2 contributed so much to supporting phase 1, that phase 1 otherwise had to be super-overbuilt ($$$$$).

 

[Lil'John]

Its not for extra help - you put it here, or put it there kind of thing.

The exception would be if this shop space portion is temporary. Then you want the greater structure self-supporting.

Mine is stick-built, but similar issue. Had to build more up-front because phase 2 contributed so much to supporting phase 1, that phase 1 otherwise had to be super-overbuilt ($$$$$).

I'm not going to stick build this large enclosure. It will be a tube carport style structure, a quonset hut, or a structural steel setup depending upon kit price. Cost and time to construct will be driving factor.

The main goal of the first phase is for covered storage for multiple rolling vehicles... there will be minimal/zero parts storage in here. I've got a 11'x44' basement full of pallet racking that is securely holding all my tools/parts. I need/want a small enclosed area for a single non-rolling vehicle/project so I can chip away at it year round.

I don't believe the separate interior built 'shop' will have any significant impact on build price or effort... probably less cost if I only need to frame out one full wall, a 'roll up door' wall, a support beam if I don't tie it into the main structure, and a roof.

Here is a quick/dirty site map:

The green line beside the shop is potential use of 2' wide pallet rack for structure of the wall on that side of the shop. Secure some 2x4s to it and screw in some plywood.

The purple box at upper left is a place I could potentially drop a dedicated small shop; think 16'x24'... depends upon how I'm feeling on a given day. Again, I have zero need of huge enclosed multi-project space. I know I am too ADD and even less would get done than now

 

[u2slow]

I'm not going to stick build this large enclosure. It will be a tube carport style structure, a quonset hut, or a structural steel setup depending upon kit price. Cost and time to construct will be driving factor.

Understood.

I shopped for steel buildings too, and as soon as it was a custom design, the price advantage evaporated. Maybe you are better off with a base/generic design (hopefully a clearance deal) and perhaps slide a sea-can in there for a 'shop'.

Edit: fwiw, my stick-built is 40x50ish. 3 overheight bays with the center one enclosed. It was the limit of my bylaws... and finances. Excavation to lockup was 3 months.

 

[Lil'John]

Understood.

I shopped for steel buildings too, and as soon as it was a custom design, the price advantage evaporated. Maybe you are better off with a base/generic design (hopefully a clearance deal) and perhaps slide a sea-can in there for a 'shop'.

Edit: fwiw, my stick-built is 40x50ish. 3 overheight bays with the center one enclosed. It was the limit of my bylaws... and finances. Excavation to lockup was 3 months.

I'm not sure of what 'normal' sizes are(width is probably the big one) but right now, I've just been looking at Craigslist and Ebay for sales and 'ooppsies' type sales. My width 'choices' are up to 30' or out to 45' with nothing between those two. Length is up to 60' or so with no cutting into the hill side... I could go back much further(100') if I cut into the hill a bit(4' cut into the side).

No way I'd go with a sea-can... I hear too much about sweat issues and too narrow for a vehicle. Plus, it would cost probably as much as framing out a small enclosure; my hand notes for lumber came in at a little under $4k to frame out a 24'x16' shop with small bonus room on top(no truss/roof sheeting) Last 20' sea-can I priced was near $3k with no delivery.