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Shop Truck turned Race Truck SORC Tech in Shit-shat

Bump back to the top with this thread. I got in for '23. ( by volunteering this year)

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Id like to enter a faster class, 100 maybe 105. Both of which require a cage. If I buy something like this kit from summit, are the rear legs necessary? I know they are making the cage stronger, I guess what Im trying to avoid is cutting holes in my cab. How dumb is it to not put those in?

rhc-13-0000-cm_xl.jpg
 
Id like to enter a faster class, 100 maybe 105. Both of which require a cage. If I buy something like this kit from summit, are the rear legs necessary? I know they are making the cage stronger, I guess what Im trying to avoid is cutting holes in my cab. How dumb is it to not put those in?
What do the rules say?

Are you going to need any pit crew help? :flipoff2:
 
glad to see this back at the top. still following along.


as for the cage, rule book for sure, but i would guess it would need something more than the simple door bar so a front/top load doesn't fold the thing in on itself.
 
From the rules:

Inside roll bar requirements for standard cab pickups only:
A. Minimum of a 4 pt. bar, along with a diagonal cross brace and full-width
shoulder harness bar. Bar size will need to meet bar size ratio to weight of
pickup. Mounting will need to be as required in our roll bar specs. See
page 20.

Roll Bar Specifications
1. Participant acknowledges and agrees that they are solely responsible for the
safety of their own vehicle, and that it is the participant’s responsibility to ensure
compliance with the rules and regulations. Organizer shall have the right to
inspect any vehicle at any time to verify it is compliant with the rules and
regulations to the extent of organizer’s knowledge.
2. Roll Bar: A 4 pt. roll bar is mandatory in the Grand Touring and Grand Sport
Divisions, with a harness bar and a diagonal brace.
3. Basic Design Considerations: The basic purpose of the roll bar/roll cage is to
protect the driver in case the vehicle rolls over. This purpose should not be
forgotten.
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A. The top of the roll bar shall not be below the top of the driver’s helmet in a
closed car and a minimum of two (2) inches above the driver’s helmet in
an open car when the driver is in the normal driving position. It shall not be
more than six (6) inches behind the driver.
B. Cars with factory built or factory reinforced roll structures may be allowed
in the 100, 105, 110, 115, and 120 class. They will be evaluated on a per
car basis. The decision of the race director will be final.
C. The two vertical members forming the side of the hoop shall not be less
than fifteen (15) inches apart, inside dimensions, at their attachment point
to the uppermost chassis member.
D. An inspection hole of at least 3/16-inch diameter must be drilled in a noncritical
area of the roll bar member to facilitate verification of wall
thickness. This should be at least three inches from any weld or bend.
4. Material: The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless, DOM (Drawn
Over Mandrel), or a chrome moly or Docal steel tubing.
A. The size of the tubing to be used must be determined on the basis of the
weight and speed potential of the car.
5. Fabrication: The main vertical hoop must be one continuous length of tubing with
smooth continuous bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure.
A. All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration. All
attachment points must be welded 360 degrees around the tube.
B. Gussets should be welded at the junction of any tubes.
6. Bracing: It is recommended that braces be of the same size tubing as used for
the roll bar itself.
A. All roll bars must be braced in a for or aft direction with the brace attached
within six (6) inches of the top of the hoop, and at an angle of at least thirty
(30) degrees from vertical.
B. It is required that a diagonal brace be used to triangulate the main hoop,
and it is highly recommended that this brace be attached at the top on the
driver’s side and attached to the bottom on the “passenger” side.
C. A headrest is required if not part of the seat.
7. Mounting Plates: Roll bars and braces must be attached to the frame of the car
whenever possible. Mounting plates must be used for this purpose. When the
main hoop is attached to sheet metal, such as a floor attaching point for unibody
cars, the mount plate must be at least 36 square inches (6” x 6” plate) on both
sides of the sheet metal.
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A. A minimum of double-nutted grade 5 bolts for self-locking or welded nuts
shall be used to bolt to the car. No bolts are needed if the bar is welded to
the car’s frame.
B. In the case of cars with unitized or frameless construction, mounting
plates must be used to secure the roll bar structure to the floor of the car.
The important consideration is that the load be distributed over as large an
area as possible. A back-up plate of equal size and thickness must be
used on the opposite side of the panel with the plates through-bolted
together.
8. Removable Roll Bars: Removable roll bars and their braces must be very
carefully designed and constructed to be at least as strong as a permanent
installation. If one tube fits inside another to facilitate removal, the removable
portion must bottom on the permanent mounting, and the mounting hardware
used to secure each joint must be grade five (5) or better. It is recommended that
the telescope section be at least eight (8) inches in length.
9. Installations On Cars Of Space Frame Or Frameless Design: It is important that
the structures be attached to cars in such a way as to spread the loads over a
wide area. It is not sufficient to simply attach the roll bar to a single tube or
junction of tubes. The roll bar must be designed in such a way as to be an
extension of the frame. Considerable care must be used to add as necessary to
the frame structure itself in such a way as to properly distribute the loads. It is not
true that a roll bar can only be as strong as a single tube of the frame. On cars of
frameless construction, consideration should be given to using a vertical roll bar
hoop of 360 degrees completely around the inside of the car, and attaches with
suitable mounting plates. This type of roll bar then becomes a substitute for the
frame.
10. Other Designs: Deviations from the above will be considered.
11. Roll Bar Padding: Roll bar padding should be used to protect the driver/navigator
in all areas of possible contact.
12. Minimum Tubing Sizing: The size of the tubing to be used shall be determined on
the basis of the weight and speed potential of the car.
2700 lbs. & over
DOM 1.75” O.D. x .120 wall
Alloy (CM) 1.75 x .120 wall
 
And another set for "roll cage"

Roll Cage Specifications
1. Participant acknowledges and agrees that they are solely responsible for the
safety of their own vehicle, and that it is the participant’s responsibility to ensure
compliance with the rules and regulations. Organizer shall have the right to
inspect any vehicle at any time to verify it is compliant with the rules and
regulations to the extent of organizer’s knowledge.
2. Roll Cage Division Requirements:
A. The cage may be removable or may be permanently welded, or any
combination thereof, providing that all aspects of the cage meet these
rules.
B. A NASCAR style roll cage is highly recommended.
C. Material, fabrication, bracing, and installation specifications are the same
as the specifications for a roll bar. See pages 18-20 for detailed
information.
D. All roll cage surfaces that may come in contact with the driver must be
padded with high density padding such as Ethafoam or Ensolite.
E. None of the tubing may show any signs of crimping or wall failure. All
bends must be Mandrel type.
F. One continuous length of roll bar tubing shall be used as the main hoop.
The main hoop must consist of not more than four (4) bends maximum,
totaling one hundred eighty (180) degrees +/- ten (10) degrees.
G. At least one (1) diagonal brace must be used in the same plane as the
main hoop. One end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner of
horizontal part of the main hoop above the drivers’ head, within twelve
(12) inches of the driver’s-side corner.
H. The forward hoops extend from the main hoop (in a forward direction) to
the floor by following the roof and the “A” pillar of the car. There must be a
bar connecting the two (2) forward hoops at the top of the windshield
mounted as close to the roof as possible.
I. The main hoop must have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The
braces shall be attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop,
and no more than six (6) inches below the top.
24
J. At least two (2) door bars on the driver and passenger sides must be
used. The top bar must extend forward and pass the occupants between
their shoulder and elbow.
K. The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor of the car in six, seven, or eight
points. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates.
L. Welded mounting plates must be at least 0.125-inch thick.
M. The attaching points of a bolt-in cage to the body must use reinforcing
plates to sandwich the body. A least three bolts are required for each boltin
plate and the plate must be at least 3/16-inch thick. All hardware must
be SAE grade 5 or better with 5/16-inch diameter minimum. All nuts must
be held by safety wire or a locking system, such as lock washer or jamnuts.
N. All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration. All
attachment points must be welded 360 degrees around the tube.
O. All required bars must be made of the same material and meet with at
least the minimum specifications for size and thickness.
3. Minimum Tubing Sizing: The size of the tubing to be used shall be determined on
the basis of the weight and speed potential of the car.
Under 1500 lbs.
DOM 1.50" O.D. x .090 wall
Alloy 1.375 O.D. x .095
1500 to 2700 lbs.
DOM 1.50" O.D. x .120 wall or 1.75 O.D. x .095
Alloy (CM) 1.50 O.D. x .120 wall or 1.75 O.D. x .095
2700 lbs. & over
DOM 1.75" O.D. x .120 wall
Alloy (CM) 1.75 x .120 wall
4. Roll Bar Padding: Roll bar padding should be used to protect the driver/navigator
in all areas of possible contact.
5. Specification: See roll bar specification for the roll cage fabrication specification.
 
The rules for the 100/105 class say:

4. An approved 4 pt. roll bar is minimum requirement (with harness bar and
diagonal brace). See page 20.


then there is a specific truck rule:

Inside roll bar requirements for standard cab pickups only:
A. Minimum of a 4 pt. bar, along with a diagonal cross brace and full-width
shoulder harness bar. Bar size will need to meet bar size ratio to weight of
pickup. Mounting will need to be as required in our roll bar specs. See
page 20.



Then the cage/roll bar rules above from page 20.



With that in mind, why cant the 4 points be inside the cab? A-pillar and rear main hoop. Put the two diagonals on the main hoop and it becomes 6 point?
If I must run the rear diagonals through my cab and out to the bed, is there a clean way to do it that wont look like shit or leak rain water all the time?

I dd this truck.
 
I just got off the phone with Rhodes race cars, nice guy. He said the 10 point(which would be 8 without the rears) would be strong enough for a roll over but likely wouldnt pass tech for any kind of "real" race.
 
I just got off the phone with Rhodes race cars, nice guy. He said the 10 point(which would be 8 without the rears) would be strong enough for a roll over but likely wouldnt pass tech for any kind of "real" race.
That guy does amazing work. There are a few trucks that I have seen that the rear bars exit thru the window and then they just have a piece of lexan cut to the shape of the new rear window. They are bolt in so you can use the truck the rest of the year no bed bars.
Like this:

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1668113854567.png

 
I think this part is what is going to be hard:

A. All roll bars must be braced in a for or aft direction with the brace attached
within six (6) inches of the top of the hoop, and at an angle of at least thirty
(30) degrees from vertical.

It say for OR aft direction, so I don't think you have to have rear down bars. However, the down bars have to be within 6 inches of the top of the main hoop and go down at 30 degrees or less. That means they will block you from getting in and out, and I don't know if you could keep them inside the front of the cab and be within the 30 degree rule.
 
That guy does amazing work. There are a few trucks that I have seen that the rear bars exit thru the window and then they just have a piece of lexan cut to the shape of the new rear window. They are bolt in so you can use the truck the rest of the year no bed bars.
Like this:

1668113698731.png
1668113854567.png


I think this part is what is going to be hard:



It say for OR aft direction, so I don't think you have to have rear down bars. However, the down bars have to be within 6 inches of the top of the main hoop and go down at 30 degrees or less. That means they will block you from getting in and out, and I don't know if you could keep them inside the front of the cab and be within the 30 degree rule.
Thanks for taking the time to read that. I have been busy here(it has been pretty slow so busy is good) and hadnt gotten to reading it yet. I am resolved to putting them in. The pic that matt posted looks decent. I would try to keep them as far outward as possible so I can keep my bed cover in play.
 
Thanks for taking the time to read that. I have been busy here(it has been pretty slow so busy is good) and hadnt gotten to reading it yet. I am resolved to putting them in. The pic that matt posted looks decent. I would try to keep them as far outward as possible so I can keep my bed cover in play.
There is a guy I went to college with that has a race car fab shop north of KC. He does high quality work. He has a customer with an S10 that competes in the drag week style events. I don't know if he did the cage in it, but I'm sure he would talk to you about it.
 
Hey man congratulations on making the race. Great news

Do you ever plan on running this truck at the drag strip? If so, I would look at those rules.

I know SORC has tightened up the rules since I was last there, or had one of my cages run there. Remember their tech guys are local farmers.

What happened to (I think) the 90-110 mph classes only needing a hoop? When I ran with Tom in his 912 I think we ran in the 110 class one year. And to go faster we would have needed a true cage, and a whole new power train. When my wife ran the Mini with full WRC spec cage I believe she was teched to 140mph

Having made my living exploiting grey areas in rules, and having built 35 odd road race/rally/hill climb cages and more than 100 roll bars - including several that ran at SORC I would say the following

The rules state the bare minimum. You have driven those roads and know what the consequences of an off can be. So you need to build something you will feel safe in if you have a 100 mph plus off. One of my cages in a BMW kept the occupants safe when they went off on literally the last major turn on Loup 2 Loup north. Car took major damage even though it did not roll.

Having said that-
Main hoop as stated, guessing 2” x 0.125” min as I don’t know your race weight. I always opted for larger diameter and thinner wall section if possible.
Full x brace within main hoop. Shoulder harness bars from main hoop to x legs. A single diagonal is only acceptable for one occupant. Two people, equal protection both sides
I always preferred side hoops and a windshield header bar rather than halo and legs. Summit does it that way so they only ever have to bend in 2D. I do not like that the Summit bar does not meet the main hoop at the highest point. It may be done to accommodate those rear legs you won’t be using. If you do move t up there is a good chance the legs won’t be long enough

The door bar as shown will pass tech I think and still allow some daily driver functionality. WRC or NASCAR door bars are much better but all but eliminate daily driver functionality plus you are not building a road race car where you may get t boned I do not like the single door bar purely from a loading perspective. Can be improved by running a horizontal bar as low as possible from main hoop to side hoop/down leg and then tie the single diagonal door bar to that node

Assuming you will tie into the frame

Gussets. Gussets. Gussets. Main hoop to halo bar. Halo bar to down legs. 2 each side

If this is going to be driven on the road please be aware of the consequences of your noggin being in close proximity to a padded roll bar. Worst case is being t boned and your brain gets scrambled.

When I had the fab shop I got to a point where I would not put a cage into a street driven vehicle. Roll bar sure.

Please think about it. And to be honest I drove the Mini on the street when it had a roll bar then a road race cage. By the time it got a FIA WRC cage it was no longer streetable

You could increase your odds by running a full halo race seat but they are expensive, make getting in and out hard and obstructs your side view big time

As you know everything on a race car is a compromise of sorts. Good luck. Let me know if you have questions
 
Hey man congratulations on making the race. Great news

Do you ever plan on running this truck at the drag strip? If so, I would look at those rules.
No, I have no plans to run it at a drag strip. But if I did, its not going to be remotely fast enough to be required to have a cage. :laughing:
I know SORC has tightened up the rules since I was last there, or had one of my cages run there. Remember their tech guys are local farmers.
I would imagine tech would be similar to last time I ran, barely looked at the truck. But that was in the 90mph class with hardly any requirements for safety gear. Once you get to 100 or above the safety requirements increase a lot.
What happened to (I think) the 90-110 mph classes only needing a hoop?
See above. The minimum is a 4 point.
The rules state the bare minimum. You have driven those roads and know what the consequences of an off can be. So you need to build something you will feel safe in if you have a 100 mph plus off. One of my cages in a BMW kept the occupants safe when they went off on literally the last major turn on Loup 2 Loup north. Car took major damage even though it did not roll.
That is why I would like a full cage. My co-driver is my son this year(not that I wanted to hurt my mechanic last year) so having something legit safe is my goal. I have resolved to putting holes out the rear of my cab.
Having said that-
Main hoop as stated, guessing 2” x 0.125” min as I don’t know your race weight. I always opted for larger diameter and thinner wall section if possible.
Full x brace within main hoop. Shoulder harness bars from main hoop to x legs. A single diagonal is only acceptable for one occupant. Two people, equal protection both sides
I always preferred side hoops and a windshield header bar rather than halo and legs. Summit does it that way so they only ever have to bend in 2D. I do not like that the Summit bar does not meet the main hoop at the highest point. It may be done to accommodate those rear legs you won’t be using. If you do move t up there is a good chance the legs won’t be long enough

The door bar as shown will pass tech I think and still allow some daily driver functionality. WRC or NASCAR door bars are much better but all but eliminate daily driver functionality plus you are not building a road race car where you may get t boned I do not like the single door bar purely from a loading perspective. Can be improved by running a horizontal bar as low as possible from main hoop to side hoop/down leg and then tie the single diagonal door bar to that node

Assuming you will tie into the frame

Gussets. Gussets. Gussets. Main hoop to halo bar. Halo bar to down legs. 2 each side

If this is going to be driven on the road please be aware of the consequences of your noggin being in close proximity to a padded roll bar. Worst case is being t boned and your brain gets scrambled.

When I had the fab shop I got to a point where I would not put a cage into a street driven vehicle. Roll bar sure.

Please think about it. And to be honest I drove the Mini on the street when it had a roll bar then a road race cage. By the time it got a FIA WRC cage it was no longer streetable

You could increase your odds by running a full halo race seat but they are expensive, make getting in and out hard and obstructs your side view big time

As you know everything on a race car is a compromise of sorts. Good luck. Let me know if you have questions
Thank you for the tips above. I will definitely take them to heart.

I suppose it is worth asking, since you mentioned getting t-boned on the street with a full cage, do you think I can get away with just a roll bar? And be safe enough running that road in the 120s? Main hoop behind the seats(with x bar and harness bar), door bars and rear legs going to the frame mid bed.
 
I hate to hear you are going to cut holes in the truck, but you will get the best possible cage by doing so

I would much prefer you guys ran with a full cage. Especially if you are going to put holes in the cab.

The good thing about a p/u is the cab is relatively tall compared to a sports car so you should have more noggin to bar clearance than in a sports or compact car.

What are you running for seats?
 
I hate to hear you are going to cut holes in the truck, but you will get the best possible cage by doing so

I would much prefer you guys ran with a full cage. Especially if you are going to put holes in the cab.

The good thing about a p/u is the cab is relatively tall compared to a sports car so you should have more noggin to bar clearance than in a sports or compact car.

What are you running for seats?
Stock seats for now. Though it's up for an upgrade at this point. Since I do(or maybe used to, at this point:laughing:) dd it, I'd like something fairly comfy
 
Most race seats suck for use as daily driver

The more they support and restrain you, the harder they are to get in and out of.

A HANS compatible seat, with a halo (seat has a big u shape at ear level to prevent sideways movement of your head) would possibly help with the unprotected noggin in an accident but they severely restrict your side vision, and they are even worse to get in and out of. And are very spendy.

Reason I was asking. I was thinking going to a non OEM seat might allow you to drop it a little to gain noggin to roll cage clearance.

Look at James Mays recent crash for a scary reminder how much a fully restrained body moves in a wreck. A t boned accident would probably have even larger forces than his.

I always look at the worst possible outcome and build safety devices accordingly. So on that I would probably say full cage (maybe with a removable door bar for easier DD access). Just be aware of the DD risks.

In all likelihood a well built or overbuilt 4 PT roll bar would offer sufficient protection and may be a better solution for DD role. But hard to predict how bad an accident would be if say you had a blowout at full chat to tankslapper to multiple rolls. I would hate you to be mid third roll when you realize you should have gone full cage.

I like the 120 class because the math becomes real easy.
 
In all likelihood a well built or overbuilt 4 PT roll bar would offer sufficient protection and may be a better solution for DD role. But hard to predict how bad an accident would be if say you had a blowout at full chat to tankslapper to multiple rolls. I would hate you to be mid third roll when you realize you should have gone full cage.
Maybe I'll leave the truck alone and race the 90mph class. I had enough sleepless nights last race worrying about wrecking and hurting my mechanic/friend. Putting my son in that scenario will not help. :frown:
 
I hate to hear you are going to cut holes in the truck, but you will get the best possible cage by doing so

I would much prefer you guys ran with a full cage. Especially if you are going to put holes in the cab.

The good thing about a p/u is the cab is relatively tall compared to a sports car so you should have more noggin to bar clearance than in a sports or compact car.

What are you running for seats?
Corbeau seats and harnesses. Bought brackets that go with the seats and they fit the factory bolt holes pretty close.(had to open up the holes on the front and make a new hole on the rear). I dont like the seating postitions, I need to move it rearwards. So different brackets are going to be needed.

20230512_124456.jpg
 
Corbeau seats and harnesses. Bought brackets that go with the seats and they fit the factory bolt holes pretty close.(had to open up the holes on the front and make a new hole on the rear). I dont like the seating postitions, I need to move it rearwards. So different brackets are going to be needed.

20230512_124456.jpg
Did you try leaning the seat back some?
Looks too upright

Always tricky in a truck dealing with fixed back seats. If you get upper body sorted then my legs always seem too bent. Get the legs sorted then upper body too far from the wheel.

Have used 4x4 or even 4x6 aluminum angle and just drilled my own holes for brackets
RedWagon makes a good point, if possible
 
Cage? if so mount the seats to it, not the floor.

Did you try leaning the seat back some?
Looks too upright

Always tricky in a truck dealing with fixed back seats. If you get upper body sorted then my legs always seem too bent. Get the legs sorted then upper body too far from the wheel.

Have used 4x4 or even 4x6 aluminum angle and just drilled my own holes for brackets
RedWagon makes a good point, if possible
the cage is not going to have bars there to mount the seats too. I think I'll grab some 2x2 and move it up and back. Plus angle it down in the back.
 
this is the cage I bought. added some extras too it, like the x in the main hoop. it is supposed to be bent up exactly for my truck. it is 1.75x120 dom. I know you recommended 2'', but without making it myself this is the best I could find. and it meets the tech for sorc.

I'll post a pic of it all when I get it layed out on the floor. its a giant puzzle. :laughing:

Off-Road-Truck-Full-Size-Roll-Cage-Kit-Chevrolet-C-10-73-87-Chevrolet-88-98-Chevrolet-99-07.png
 
the cage is not going to have bars there to mount the seats too. I think I'll grab some 2x2 and move it up and back. Plus angle it down in the back.
you want the seat mounted to the cage. think of it like an ejection seat in a fighter jet.
 
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