Shop in the woods.

[woods]

Continued from here: https://irate4x4.com/shop-and-tools/...hop-dimensions

Alright. Got the camera working.

The area I'm working with:

A 2:32 video of the area:



The slope doesn't look like much, but its there.

Plans right now are 32x48. The main goal is to be able to park the CCLB F250 in there on the lift.

Looking at 16' walls. 14' door and a 10' door. Structure probably won't be symmetrical. Tall roof line for the lift side, and sloped downward towards the shorter door. This is in northern New England so that should cut down on heat.

Stick built.

Poured foundation and 4' frost walls.

Going with a lean-to off the side of it to park the L series.

Got a call in to the concrete guy to get a quote. Lumber pricing as of this post is insane. This year's plan is to clear the land, fill in to proper height, then perhaps foundation.

This is the start to a very long process.

 

[clodhopper]

Needs more triangulation.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Do a 20-something by 40-something oriented with the long way digging into the hill This gets you two bays wide by two bays deep. Cut into the hill so you have drive in access on both the 1st and 2nd floor. Do a traditional gambrel roof to buy as much storage space on the 3rd floor as possible. The fill you generated from cutting into the hill becomes your parking pad on the downhill side of the 1st floor. Do a split level on the 2nd floor. This buys you 14+ft ceilings for 2/4 of your lower bays for a lift and handling large materials at the expense of only having two parking bays on the 2nd floor (with the timber you have available you should have no problem cheaply building a floor you can park vehicles on) Do lean-tos on both sides of the barn. North side is for storing the tractor and implements. South side is for stacking wood and shit that benefits from sun.

Ignore the people saying you need a single level steel pole barn with 14ft ceilings. Those buildings are great if you're a commercial operation that wants to write a check to have someone else quickly put up something that comes with rubber stamped plans on already flat ground and you intend to pass all the operational costs on to your customers. But that's not your situation. There's a reason that people who live where you do build barns. A barn cut into the side of a hill like I just described has ~1/3 the siding, roofing, foundation, site prep and surface area to lose heat from (and the shorter dimension runs decrease the necessary timber sizes to handle your floor and snow loads) when compared to a single floor shop of the same square footage.

You're bitching about the hill now but it really makes your water management situation a lot easier and your shop will be a lot drier for it in the long run and if you play your cards in a non-Ashke manner you'll get drive in access on two levels.

 

[woods]

Do a 20-something by 40-something oriented with the long way digging into the hill This gets you two bays wide by two bays deep. Cut into the hill so you have drive in access on both the 1st and 2nd floor. Do a traditional gambrel roof to buy as much storage space on the 3rd floor as possible. The fill you generated from cutting into the hill becomes your parking pad on the downhill side of the 1st floor. Do a split level on the 2nd floor. This buys you 14+ft ceilings for 2/4 of your lower bays for a lift and handling large materials at the expense of only having two parking bays on the 2nd floor (with the timber you have available you should have no problem cheaply building a floor you can park vehicles on) Do lean-tos on both sides of the barn. North side is for storing the tractor and implements. South side is for stacking wood and shit that benefits from sun.

Ignore the people saying you need a single level steel pole barn with 14ft ceilings. Those buildings are great if you're a commercial operation that wants to write a check to have someone else quickly put up something that comes with rubber stamped plans on already flat ground and you intend to pass all the operational costs on to your customers. But that's not your situation. There's a reason that people who live where you do build barns. A barn cut into the side of a hill like I just described has ~1/3 the siding, roofing, foundation, site prep and surface area to lose heat from (and the shorter dimension runs decrease the necessary timber sizes to handle your floor and snow loads) when compared to a single floor shop of the same square footage.

You're bitching about the hill now but it really makes your water management situation a lot easier and your shop will be a lot drier for it in the long run and if you play your cards in a non-Ashke manner you'll get drive in access on two levels.

So by the hill, you mean the slope on the left? Or the area behind the house? If I did the slope on the left and dug down, I'd have water issues for sure. I really can't dig down. Unless I filled in on the driveway side, and slope at the level it is now. But then that may be too high to raise the driveway. Not sure if it'd work out that way.

Concrete guy called back, but I can't do the cell phone at work. So we're emailing.

Spoke to a surveyor friend this morning, and he pretty much said put the shop wherever I can.

That being said, Opiebennett 's post: LINK has me a little worried.

I didn't keep track all that well, but with doing my own electrical and hiring most everything else out, no insulation, no plumbing, I think I was close to 75k in 2019. Frost depth here in WA is only 1.5 foot too, and lumber has almost doubled.

I'm hoping I can drive that price down, otherwise this whole thing is a pipe dream. Few of my friends have shops going up, but they're all on slabs. One of theirs is already cracked.

 

[TiTRD]

Get estimates, budget accordingly. Thats all you can do.

Dirt work and concrete is going to eat up a good chunk.

 

[arse_sidewards]

So by the hill, you mean the slope on the left? Or the area behind the house? If I did the slope on the left and dug down, I'd have water issues for sure. I really can't dig down. Unless I filled in on the driveway side, and slope at the level it is now. But then that may be too high to raise the driveway. Not sure if it'd work out that way.

Concrete guy called back, but I can't do the cell phone at work. So we're emailing.

Spoke to a surveyor friend this morning, and he pretty much said put the shop wherever I can.

That being said, Opiebennett 's post: LINK has me a little worried.


I'm hoping I can drive that price down, otherwise this whole thing is a pipe dream. Few of my friends have shops going up, but they're all on slabs. One of theirs is already cracked.

I was thinking your 20ish foot side of the building and your second floor garage door would be in the vicinity of those blue barrels and the building would extend down the hill.

Can u re-draw this with the other structures on your property and rough topographic lines?

Are you planning on a separate meter for the shop or sub panel? If sub then what's your current panel rating?

You should have no problem driving down the site prep costs if you're willing to do stuff yourself. It might take you some time and you'd certainly put some wear on it but you already own a tractor with a loader and you can pull a small ripper if the rocks really are that bad. Those quotes should give you the motivation to spend some time on the tractor.

 

[woods]

yea, separate panel.

also no plumbing.

I do have the tractor. for the larger stuff, just rent an ex for a few days.

going to chat with the concrete guy. start there. I like the idea of what I said in the video. instead of filling the entire area in, build off what's already at grade.

 

[rockota]

Do a 20-something by 40-something oriented with the long way digging into the hill This gets you two bays wide by two bays deep. Cut into the hill so you have drive in access on both the 1st and 2nd floor. Do a traditional gambrel roof to buy as much storage space on the 3rd floor as possible. The fill you generated from cutting into the hill becomes your parking pad on the downhill side of the 1st floor. Do a split level on the 2nd floor. This buys you 14+ft ceilings for 2/4 of your lower bays for a lift and handling large materials at the expense of only having two parking bays on the 2nd floor (with the timber you have available you should have no problem cheaply building a floor you can park vehicles on) Do lean-tos on both sides of the barn. North side is for storing the tractor and implements. South side is for stacking wood and shit that benefits from sun.

Ignore the people saying you need a single level steel pole barn with 14ft ceilings. Those buildings are great if you're a commercial operation that wants to write a check to have someone else quickly put up something that comes with rubber stamped plans on already flat ground and you intend to pass all the operational costs on to your customers. But that's not your situation. There's a reason that people who live where you do build barns. A barn cut into the side of a hill like I just described has ~1/3 the siding, roofing, foundation, site prep and surface area to lose heat from (and the shorter dimension runs decrease the necessary timber sizes to handle your floor and snow loads) when compared to a single floor shop of the same square footage.

You're bitching about the hill now but it really makes your water management situation a lot easier and your shop will be a lot drier for it in the long run and if you play your cards in a non-Ashke manner you'll get drive in access on two levels.

You’ve way over simplified his issue by creating an overly complex solution.

 

[Opiebennett]

Knowing what I know now, I probably could have saved 10k?
I have 7k in moving my customer (me) owned power pole on my property and the wires to my house associated.

I have all cedar trim instead of spruce, (2k upgrade) but that should last longer than the spruce.

I had 12.5k in framing labor. 100 yards of concrete at $132/yard (plus tax) is 15k.

The $ goes a lot faster than you think. I also did the project mostly in one summer, which didn't get the 'whenever you get to it' price, and was the scheduled price. I also hired all licensed and bonded subs, which mattered to me, because my house is on the same property, and I didn't need to deal with someone getting hurt and using a lawsuit to drain my funds and take my house.

 

[arse_sidewards]

You’ve way over simplified his issue by creating an overly complex solution.

You realize that OP probably can't drive 5min in any direction without seeing someone who had the same issue he had and solved it the way I suggested. The only thing OP would be doing different would be doing a split level for lift clearance on day 1 instead of waiting a hundred years and a few owners.

Knowing what I know now, I probably could have saved 10k?
I have 7k in moving my customer (me) owned power pole on my property and the wires to my house associated.

I have all cedar trim instead of spruce, (2k upgrade) but that should last longer than the spruce.

I had 12.5k in framing labor. 100 yards of concrete at $132/yard (plus tax) is 15k.

The $ goes a lot faster than you think. I also did the project mostly in one summer, which didn't get the 'whenever you get to it' price, and was the scheduled price. I also hired all licensed and bonded subs, which mattered to me, because my house is on the same property, and I didn't need to deal with someone getting hurt and using a lawsuit to drain my funds and take my house.

Having to move the power pole really screwed you.

woods you never mentioned which things you'd be doing yourself and what (if anything) you'd be subbing out.

Speaking of materials, if you haven't started looking for CL deals on bulk framing nails, joist hangers, etc. etc. you should be. You can turn a lot of $50-$200 expenses into $5-$50 expenses if you're willing to take a drive once a week and meet people to buy shit. Over the course of a project this adds up to a hefty chunk of change.

 

[rockota]

You realize that OP probably can't drive 5min in any direction without seeing someone who had the same issue he had and solved it the way I suggested. The only thing OP would be doing different would be doing a split level for lift clearance on day 1 instead of waiting a hundred years and a few owners.

The only way this idea solves the OP’s problem is if he does a dual level and span Crete’s the floor.

otherwise, he will be forced to build another entrance that may not work for him.

im all fo doing a dual level. But the way you suggested implementing it in this situation turns a shop into a bit of an inefficient maze.

 

[woods]

Having to move the power pole really screwed you.

woods you never mentioned which things you'd be doing yourself and what (if anything) you'd be subbing out.

Speaking of materials, if you haven't started looking for CL deals on bulk framing nails, joist hangers, etc. etc. you should be. You can turn a lot of $50-$200 expenses into $5-$50 expenses if you're willing to take a drive once a week and meet people to buy shit. Over the course of a project this adds up to a hefty chunk of change.

I already have four utility poles leading up to my house. Probably end up doing something underground to another service.

Hopefully the concrete guy gets back to me soon. But honestly, I'm starting to get a little disheartened. Every person I've run this by have told me $100k, easy. With the size of 32x48, we won't be able to frame it ourselves. Roof, hired out. Electrical is going to be bit too serious for us. So pretty much the finish work we'll tackle.

That being said, watch this turn into a 25x25 outdoor slab with an outdoor lift.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

How much elevation change is there? My suggestion is to continue the frost wall up above the floor 4' or so. Maybe on the hill side run it up higher. There will be no drainage issue if you put in a proper drainage system as you can run it to daylight.

Extending the walls higher really isn't much more money, and you get a much stronger, weatherproof, insect proof building. Your walls end up using shorter lumber, siding, etc as well.

 

[woods]

I'll have to fill in about 5'. The area I'll need to remeasure since I'm going to move the shop closer to the house where the ground is already level.

Used a few calculators as I wait to hear back from concrete guy. 50yds of concrete? 32x48, 4' walls, and 8" thick. Thought it'd be more than that. And many sites says to use $125 a cubic yard, which seems really low?

 

[Dethmachinefab]

125 is concrete only. Need to add in rebar and labor. The concrete is the cheap part, thats why i say go higher with the walls and solve the problem, the additional labor and material is minimal. If he sets up a 4' wall or 6' wall isnt much different.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

You will need a thicker wall if holding back the hillside, and possibly some buttress work.

 

[woods]

ok ok, I gotcha.

as you can tell, I don't know the first thing about this stuff.

My friend is referring me to these things: https://www.nudura.com/products/nudura-icf-series/icf-products/

guess that cuts a bit off the labor, but a floor still needs to be made.

 

[Java230]

ok ok, I gotcha.

as you can tell, I don't know the first thing about this stuff.

My friend is referring me to these things: https://www.nudura.com/products/nudura-icf-series/icf-products/



guess that cuts a bit off the labor, but a floor still needs to be made.

If you use those be careful with the vibrator..... They like to blow out if you walls are tall.

 

[Toreadorranger]

Have you priced a comparable steel building? With the price of lumber as high as it is, Id seriously consider one.

 

[woods]

Have you priced a comparable steel building? With the price of lumber as high as it is, Id seriously consider one.

Yea, I just fired out a few emails to people.

 

[woods]

Concrete guy got back to me.

Foundation Specs: 48’0”X32’0”4’0”

• 160’0” of 8”X16” Footing
• 160’0” of 4’0”X8” Wall
• 2-Runs of #4 rebar footings.
• 2-Runs of #4 rebar bottom of wall a single run of #4 rebar top of walls.
• #4 Dowels 4’0” on center 2’0” high footing to wall
• Galvanized anchor bolts 6’0” on center
• All concrete 3000 PSI

Foundation Estimate labor and materials: $11,785.00

Slab Specs: 48’0”X32’0”X6”

• 1536 SQFT

• 6” Thick
• 27.0 Yards of 4000 PSI concrete
• Fiber mesh
• 192’0” of control joints

Slab estimate labor and materials: $10,575.00
Total job estimate: $22,360.00

General Contractor responsible for the following: 1)All state and town permits 2)Access to pour 3)All grades 4)Winter conditions 5)Pump truck $1,100.00 per pump if necessary 6)Soil Compaction 7)Prices are subject to change.

 

[u2slow]

I asked for rebar in my slab. I wasn't ok with only fiber or metal mesh. I'm not an P.Eng or anything, but every commercial building project I've worked on had steel in the slab.

 

[woods]

I asked for rebar in my slab. I wasn't ok with only fiber or metal mesh. I'm not an P.Eng or anything, but every commercial building project I've worked on had steel in the slab.

Ok, asked them about that.

Whole 'nother topic now. Metal buildings. Opened up that box. Spoke to two building inspectors and a few other guys in the construction field. All said metal, hands down. So now I have those cogs turning.

 

[woods]

In regards to metal buildings, wife sent me this:

https://mortonbuildings.com/projects/joes-garage-3?building-use[]=6905

That's THE design I'm going for. The dimensions are a bit off, but that's what I'm looking to do.

 

[D Nelly]

Morton buildings are nice, like the cats ass of metal buildings nice. I've done repair work on a few and was always impressed

 

[rockota]

In regards to metal buildings, wife sent me this:

https://mortonbuildings.com/projects/joes-garage-3?building-use[]=6905


That's THE design I'm going for. The dimensions are a bit off, but that's what I'm looking to do.

If you build that....


will you adopt me, please?

 

[woods]

Morton buildings are nice, like the cats ass of metal buildings nice. I've done repair work on a few and was always impressed

yaknow, the more and more I look into these, I'm pretty much sold; as of today. who knows, tomorrow I may change my mind. but, I'm really liking the idea of metal.

So $25k for the concrete. Say, $5k for the land; eh call it $10k. bringing it closer to the house now, not filling in NEAR as much. So that's $35k. $5k for the lift. $40k then whatever the building costs. Which I don't know if its $10k or $70k. I have three quotes pending right now. After that its electrical then I'm sure lighting will be a bit pricey. After that, I can dick around with it here and there.

I'm feeling it a bit better about this now.

 

[woods]

If you build that....


will you adopt me, please?

yea, the design is spot on. taller side on one half, lower on the other. that thing is 70' long which is double what I'm looking at. also don't really need the upstairs portion. so that's a bit overbuilt for what I'm looking for.

 

[rockota]

yea,.

Perfect!

 

[woods]

Perfect!

just keep up with the firewood.