Second Gen Tracker/Vitara T-Case/Drivetrain - Potential Upgrades?

[Captain]

Figured I'd start a new thread with regards to the rabbit hole I'm going down. Looking for any input/recommendations. Apologies in advance for the noob discussion.

My vehicle: 02 Chevy Tracker ZR2 4 Door w/ 2.5L V6 and Mazda A44DE (Aisin Warner AW03-72LE) Auto Trans. Currently just a spacer lift 31s...stock tcase & r/p gearing - 4.37(?)

Interested in SASing it and running at least 35s. Desire to also keep it streetable/use on highway

Aside from the f/r axle options discussed in the other thread...what are the potential options for the T-case? Trail gear offers a 4.24 low gear...however some of yall have said the high-range t-case gearing is going to be the challenge.

I'm coming across others on the internet swapping trans (in 1st gens) to the AW-71 auto trans (non-electric controlled) mostly out of volvos/some toyotas which apparently shares an output for toyota t-cases or a flange to run a divorced sami case. I've seen others mention running Dana 300s instead.

Can someone learn me on this subject? What transmission to tcase options might there be? TIA

 

[Gwagensteve]

I'd run an LT230. High range 0.9-1.667, low range 3.32 stock but there are lower gear sets available.

People complain about the input shaft size, but with a H25 and an auto you won't break it.

Unbolt the tracker transfer case and use a Samurai slip yoke (spline matches the output of your transmission) to make a short jackshaft and run the LT230 divorced.

You'll need an offset rear diff, but that has advantages of it's own anyway.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

If you have the 4.30s stock, 5.29/5.38s should put you pretty damn close to stock. Although I'd lean towards 5.71/5.89s if possible, personally.

The problem is the older side kicks that come with 27" tires and 5.12s. Then you go to 35s and barely lower axle gears.

4.24s will be a huge difference from the 1.8s. You'll probably be pretty good offroad with the auto.

 

[Captain]

I'd run an LT230. High range 0.9-1.667, low range 3.32 stock but there are lower gear sets available.

Unbolt the tracker transfer case and use a Samurai slip yoke (spline matches the output of your transmission) to make a short jackshaft and run the LT230 divorced.

Hmm...interesting. Definitely hadn't come across the LT230. Sounds like a good option...sounds heavier duty than the sami case....just maybe harder to locate. Thanks

You'll need an offset rear diff, but that has advantages of it's own anyway.

Trying to figure out a set of junkyard FJ60s...but is the offset rear 100% necessary...? Or just the attempt to reduce any potential vibes?

4.24s will be a huge difference from the 1.8s. You'll probably be pretty good offroad with the auto.

True. Just trying to see if there are other cases I should be investigating/investing in instead...

 

[Gwagensteve]

I can't see how it's possible to maintain acceptable uni joint angles with an offset transfer output and a centred rear diff, especially with road use.

Yes, an LT230 is very, very substantially stronger than a suzuki transfer case. for example, Meiser's LX45 runs an LT 230 with an LS motor and 40" tires.

The issue with a gearing outcome that retains the direct high range is once the car is geared for road use you'll end up with an enormous gap between low and high range which will be a pain on easy trails. People don't generally take this into account. A Samurai running 6.5 transfer gears has low range less than 4X lower than high range (3.93) and that feels like a huge step between high and low. 4.24 is a massive gap. Add to that the torque load on the chain which is more than twice it was designed for and the slip yokes and retaining the tracker/GV transfer just doesn't make any sense.

I have some experience with an auto tracker on 33's with 5.12 diff gears and 4.24 transfer and neither on or off road gearing was very successful. On road it was doughy and pretty much wouldn't hold the torque converter locked on at 55-60mph. (it was a G16B engined car, so I accept it don't have the torque of the H25, but the H25 isn't a torque monster at low revs either) Off road the gearing was fantastic for very technical driving but as soon as the terrain was a bit easier I wanted to get out of low range and into high, but then it was too tall geared, loaded up the converter and highlighted the high step AW-4's have between 2nd and 3rd.

35's and 5.29's would be about the same. 5.7's would be better on road but then low range is even less useful. I don't know anything about the terrain you drive but if you're coming from 31's and a spacer lift (with a car you drive anywhere any time) you're going to end up with a very specialised car that has a very narrow range of operation. If that's what you want, more power to you, but that pushes the car towards being a trailer queen and you'll want something less compromised for a lot of your driving.

Running land cruiser axles with 4.1 gearing with 1.4:1 high range is equivalent to 5.7 diff gears alone but it's all with factory, off the shelf parts.
Hard numerical crawl ratio is 41:1 which sounds like nothing but you only have 24:1 now.
Compared to, say, a regeared stock transfer with 4.24's and 5.7's where you have custom parts in an overloaded transfer case, with aftermarket gears in your diffs with the smallest possible pinion to get the same road rpm. sure, the 73:1 crawl sounds appealing but it's not all that practical in reality.

If you want more low range reduction you can regear the LT230 50% lower in low range (so that's 5:1) without any impact on high range, which takes you to 61:1 which really is plenty for an auto. The AW-4 has a 2.4:1 converter ratio so if the converter is slipping close to lockup there's the equivalent of 144:1 numerical reduction.

With my Samurai's G16B/6.4/5.12 combination on 35's my gearing is basically 100:1 and it's stupidly low - I can't load up the converter and the car is very difficult to stop in low range even with 4 wheel disks and dual front brake calipers.

 

[Captain]

Excellent info...thanks for your input. Sums up this particular dilemma nicely.

Damn.

 

[woods]

With my Samurai's G16B/6.4/5.12 combination on 35's my gearing is basically 100:1 and it's stupidly low - I can't load up the converter and the car is very difficult to stop in low range even with 4 wheel disks and dual front brake calipers.

My 1.3 with 6.5s and 5.29s was perfect. Third gear was my go to gear for most wheeling. 1st gear was crazy low.

 

[Dumptruck.the.wookie]

4.24 is great.. dont look back,,,

 

[2big bronco]

Offset rear is not necessary, esspecially in a Longer wheelbase like a 4dr. The driveline doesnt know the difference between up/down and left/righ angles

 

[Gwagensteve]

I disagree. The end result would be equivalent of something like 6” more suspension lift than whatever the car requires to clear the tyres. That’s going to put the unis on a very steep angle. It can’t readily be solved with double cardan as it’s not possible to point the pinion at the transfer output. It might be OK on a trail only car but not on something that sees road miles

 

[2big bronco]

Te

I disagree. The end result would be equivalent of something like 6” more suspension lift than whatever the car requires to clear the tyres. That’s going to put the unis on a very steep angle. It can’t readily be solved with double cardan as it’s not possible to point the pinion at the transfer output. It might be OK on a trail only car but not on something that sees road miles

It is a littpe worse then having it straight but not bad at all and not the equivalent of an added 6inch lift. Grab a broom handle or even use your finger and rotate it down and then to the side. Only a slight increase in the actual angle. You dont add the 2 different angles togeather. Ive had several Toyota axled samurais that run a much shorter driveline then the op is talking with no issue at all.

 

[Gwagensteve]

Using some actual numbers, a 31.5” driveshaft with 6” of fall from transfer to axle has an angle of 10.6 degrees. A safe figure. Adding 6” of lateral offset takes the angle to 14.8 degrees, which is marginal. Obviously each application will be different and the two angles don’t stack together but there IS an increase in angle and it will impact uni joint life and vibration. Any vibration will be hard to chase out because tuning pinion angle will take the unis further out of phase. Locally, we don’t use Toyota pickup rear axles in Samurais for this reason, we use RJ70 Bundera axles which are pickup sized but offset to suit the transfer.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Using some actual numbers, a 31.5” driveshaft with 6” of fall from transfer to axle has an angle of 10.6 degrees. A safe figure. Adding 6” of lateral offset takes the angle to 14.8 degrees, which is marginal. Obviously each application will be different and the two angles don’t stack together but there IS an increase in angle and it will impact uni joint life and vibration. Any vibration will be hard to chase out because tuning pinion angle will take the unis further out of phase. Locally, we don’t use Toyota pickup rear axles in Samurais for this reason, we use RJ70 Bundera axles which are pickup sized but offset to suit the transfer.

Except you have people on here who have done it, and it's not all that bad.

The funny thing with the Sami case is that although the output is offset, it's also much lower, if you really did the math. I'd bet the actual u joint angle at the axle doesn't change much at all.

 

[Gwagensteve]

The funny thing with the Sami case is that although the output is offset, it's also much lower, if you really did the math. I'd bet the actual u joint angle at the axle doesn't change much at all.

Oh a Samurai, centring the rear diff adds ~15.5˚ of angle to whatever the original angle is, that's based on an 18" long driveshaft. That's quite a bit considering the stock Samurai driveshaft angle is at about 3.5˚. If I've recalled incorrectly and the stock rear driveshaft is shorter than 18", then it's even worse.

I know people have done it - I'm not disputing that. The fact is having a centred diff and an offset output substantially increases the angle the unis operate on. Whether someone considers the tradeoff acceptable is an individual choice, but the numbers do not support doing it.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Oh a Samurai, centring the rear diff adds ~15.5˚ of angle to whatever the original angle is, that's based on an 18" long driveshaft. That's quite a bit considering the stock Samurai driveshaft angle is at about 3.5˚. If I've recalled incorrectly and the stock rear driveshaft is shorter than 18", then it's even worse.

I know people have done it - I'm not disputing that. The fact is having a centred diff and an offset output substantially increases the angle the unis operate on. Whether someone considers the tradeoff acceptable is an individual choice, but the numbers do not support doing it.

You're talking going from an offset diff to a centered diff, with an offset tcase.

Were talking about the opposite. The centered out put is much higher than the offset, so the angle change isn't near as much. Not to mention we're talking about a ~40" driveshafts, not an 18" one.

 

[Gwagensteve]

A samurai case puts the output 5" below and 5" offset, so you're right that under that scenario, compared to an output on the crank centreline, the angle won't change much, but they do start coming out of phase. However, that's assuming we're comparing two outputs in the same place. i.e the Samurai rear output is in the same fore-aft location as the tracker rear output. I don't think that's the case, I think it will be further back to allow a jackshaft. - and it makes sense to build the car with a sensible jackshaft, not the super short jackshaft AW-4 converted Samurais end up with, so the driveshaft will be shorter, and certainly not 40"+ my samurai is at 100" wheelbase and I have a 38" shaft. A stock tracker is 97.6"

In any case, a Samurai transfer is nowhere near strong enough for the application which is why I suggested the LT230 for the reasons I've outlined.

An LT230 drops the output about 5.5" below the crank centreline and offsets it nearly 7" to the RHS, when in the stock inclination (measured from my Discovery just then), but that's not helpful in a tracker - the LT230 is huge at about 15" tall and will end up about 12" long from the input flange to the rear output, so it would make sense to try and clock it. Range rovers have a huge transmission tunnel and a 6" tall chassis. There is a lot less room in a tracker with a 4" tall chassis, so clocking the case would bring it's height down to prevent it being up in the cabin or hanging below the rails. Clocked flat and LT230 is 10" tall and has 9" of offset from the input.

Id be surprised if the driveshaft would end up much different to my original guess of around 15˚ of angle all in unless Captain worked out how to run the car really low by stretching the wheelbase a lot, which isn't that easy to achieve with the short load area of the tracker and rear door intrusion.

Not to mention centred rear diffs suck on the trail.

 

[2big bronco]

What is a "sensible jackshaft length"? And why wouldnt you want to make it as short as possible?

I do believe that an lt230 is a stronger case but i also think that a properly supported samurai case would hold up no problem to an anaemic v6 and 35s. Actually a track/sami doubler might be a decent option here.

Also i believe i have every combination of parts in this thread sitting on my property somewhere so ill get some real world pics/measurements this afternoon.

 

[Gwagensteve]

The shorter the jackshaft the more difficult it is to align and increases vibration. I have the trail tough adapter bush and cut down jackshaft in my car and it's been good but my transfer is lifted and on 4 urethane isolation mounts so it's much more firmly mounted than stock and very closely aligned to the output of the AW-4. My car also doesn't see much road use where the jackshaft is at high RPM at high load. Over the years I've seen every variation of trying to couple a Samurai transfer to a gearbox in the shortest possible way and they're all flaky in my opinion. If I was starting from scratch I'd try and keep the jackshaft as close as possible to the stock length (so about 12") I have a highboy F250 with a divorced NP205 and it's jackshaft is 22" long, I suspect mostly because it's significantly out of alignment with the crank

The longer the jackshaft the more leeway there is with alignment which means more scope to put the transfer in the right spot relative to the belly and diffs. We've all had to work with compromises based on packaging because we've built ourselves into a corner - I'm trying to encourage Captain to minimise those compromises and build the car right the first time so it has the best chance of meeting his brief which includes road use. People put up with all sorts of compromises in a trail only car but throw road use in and the car has to be much better built in regard to things like gearing, vibration and part life.

No, a Samurai case isn't strong enough for that application. it might last a while, it might not. By the time you throw every HD part at it, brace it like crazy, THEN break it, you're a long way in $ and effort and it's going to take a tonne more effort and money to swap it out. I've wheeled with a G16B tracker running a manual, a track kick doubler and 35's and sure enough, it took out the Samurai transfer, because if course it did - it's getting hit with over 200% more torque than it was designed for in a car that weighs an easy 600lb more than a fully laden Samurai. They're just not designed for that much torque or vehicle weight. It doesn't make sense to choose a part that's already undersized when the car could literally have any transfer in it at this point.

 

[gozuki]

I had a 60 rear and a 44 front, 1.6L manual and a well braced 4.9 low sami case, all on 35s. The sami gear blew out the side of the case halfway up sledgehammer. There's just no way to contain that torque inside that thin walled case, with those tiny bearings.

 

[Captain]

In any case, a Samurai transfer is nowhere near strong enough for the application which is why I suggested the LT230 for the reasons I've outlined.

Do you have the LR models/years the LT230 was used? Interested to see if they can even be found in my area...

I do believe that an lt230 is a stronger case but i also think that a properly supported samurai case would hold up no problem to an anaemic v6 and 35s.

Still trying to decide which way this "build" may go...if the axles/tcase options limit this...I just may have to deal with the reality and just spend the money to change platforms to sami/toyota...

Then again...if this anemic v6 sucks...do I just need to consider the ol 4.3/8 LS swap/4l60/ then an NP driver drop so I can find some better axle options...

Actually a track/sami doubler might be a decent option here.

Also i believe i have every combination of parts in this thread sitting on my property somewhere so ill get some real world pics/measurements this afternoon.

Is there an adapter that mates the sami directly to the tracker tcase...or just run it divorced? And interested to see what combinations you have...

I have the trail tough adapter bush and cut down jackshaft in my car and it's been good but my transfer is lifted and on 4 urethane isolation mounts so it's much more firmly mounted than stock and very closely aligned to the output of the AW-4. My car also doesn't see much road use where the jackshaft is at high RPM at high load. Over the years I've seen every variation of trying to couple a Samurai transfer to a gearbox in the shortest possible way and they're all flaky in my opinion. If I was starting from scratch I'd try and keep the jackshaft as close as possible to the stock length (so about 12")

Good info

The longer the jackshaft the more leeway there is with alignment which means more scope to put the transfer in the right spot relative to the belly and diffs. We've all had to work with compromises based on packaging because we've built ourselves into a corner - I'm trying to encourage Captain to minimise those compromises and build the car right the first time so it has the best chance of meeting his brief which includes road use. People put up with all sorts of compromises in a trail only car but throw road use in and the car has to be much better built in regard to things like gearing, vibration and part life.

No, a Samurai case isn't strong enough for that application. it might last a while, it might not. By the time you throw every HD part at it, brace it like crazy, THEN break it, you're a long way in $ and effort and it's going to take a tonne more effort and money to swap it out. I've wheeled with a G16B tracker running a manual, a track kick doubler and 35's and sure enough, it took out the Samurai transfer, because if course it did - it's getting hit with over 200% more torque than it was designed for in a car that weighs an easy 600lb more than a fully laden Samurai. They're just not designed for that much torque or vehicle weight. It doesn't make sense to choose a part that's already undersized when the car could literally have any transfer in it at this point.

Appreciate all the input. Agreed...just trying to figure out what options are/aren't worth pursuing before building into a corner...and have to start all over again

Definitely leaning away from the sami tcase.

I should add...while I do want to keep this streetable...If I wanted to take it somewhere ~2+ hrs away...its likely going to be on a trailer.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

Do you have the LR models/years the LT230 was used? Interested to see if they can even be found in my area...


Still trying to decide which way this "build" may go...if the axles/tcase options limit this...I just may have to deal with the reality and just spend the money to change platforms to sami/toyota...

Then again...if this anemic v6 sucks...do I just need to consider the ol 4.3/8 LS swap/4l60/ then an NP driver drop so I can find some better axle options...


Is there an adapter that mates the sami directly to the tracker tcase...or just run it divorced? And interested to see what combinations you have...


Good info

Appreciate all the input. Agreed...just trying to figure out what options are/aren't worth pursuing before building into a corner...and have to start all over again

Definitely leaning away from the sami tcase.

I should add...while I do want to keep this streetable...If I wanted to take it somewhere ~2+ hrs away...its likely going to be on a trailer.

There is a guy on FB that still sells an adapter to build a kick/sami doubler. Otherwise, you could mount it divorced behind the kick case, but you would lose alot of rear driveline length.

While an LS swap would be cool, you would basically end up with just the frame and body of the zuk left.

I am a fan of the idea of the LT230, but dont see or hear of them around much.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I had a 60 rear and a 44 front, 1.6L manual and a well braced 4.9 low sami case, all on 35s. The sami gear blew out the side of the case halfway up sledgehammer. There's just no way to contain that torque inside that thin walled case, with those tiny bearings.

Well braced? Was it a spine, type?

What axle gears?

They seem to hold up to quite a bit with a good spine or cradle deal and low enough axle gears. I think it was Adamwende who said someone he knows can break 35 spline chromos with a Sami case, 7.17s with 40-42s



I don't think op will need the Sami case. I'd give the 4.24s and some 5.29+ gears a shot. I went from 4.30s to 5.29s on my 4runner with 35s and I think it's a hair lower than stock. Only difference is that the 4runner factory tires were probably a little larger than the trackers.

With a Sami case you'll probably end up too low, even with 4.10s and a 1.7 high range. Depending on the axles, you could go higher, like 3.55s or whatever, but that just puts a lot of stress on the tcase.



As far as the tcase it's self. I'd like to see a decent track/kick trans to Toyota adapter. Just ditch the stock case and go right to the Toyota stuff, it would fit well and work great with the options for lower gears and/or duals.

 

[2big bronco]

Well braced? Was it a spine, type?

What axle gears?

They seem to hold up to quite a bit with a good spine or cradle deal and low enough axle gears. I think it was Adamwende who said someone he knows can break 35 spline chromos with a Sami case, 7.17s with 40-42s



I don't think op will need the Sami case. I'd give the 4.24s and some 5.29+ gears a shot. I went from 4.30s to 5.29s on my 4runner with 35s and I think it's a hair lower than stock. Only difference is that the 4runner factory tires were probably a little larger than the trackers.

With a Sami case you'll probably end up too low, even with 4.10s and a 1.7 high range. Depending on the axles, you could go higher, like 3.55s or whatever, but that just puts a lot of stress on the tcase.



As far as the tcase it's self. I'd like to see a decent track/kick trans to Toyota adapter. Just ditch the stock case and go right to the Toyota stuff, it would fit well and work great with the options for lower gears and/or duals.

Yep, even jessie haines runs sami cases in his comp buggys on 42s. If suported right with a good spine they shouldnt break. Or you could go full retard and spend atlas money on a case like mine.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Yep, even jessie haines runs sami cases in his comp buggys on 42s. If suported right with a good spine they shouldnt break. Or you could go full retard and spend atlas money on a case like mine.

Is he running them now?

To be fair, he's running about 10:1 axle ratio last I read (5.29s x 1.92)

But I think if the expectations are reasonable, they are extremely strong for their size and wieght. Your rig would be a good testimate with you're engine, tire size and not crazy low axle gears.

 

[gozuki]

Well braced? Was it a spine, type?

What axle gears?

They seem to hold up to quite a bit with a good spine or cradle deal and low enough axle gears. I think it was Adamwende who said someone he knows can break 35 spline chromos with a Sami case, 7.17s with 40-42s



I don't think op will need the Sami case. I'd give the 4.24s and some 5.29+ gears a shot. I went from 4.30s to 5.29s on my 4runner with 35s and I think it's a hair lower than stock. Only difference is that the 4runner factory tires were probably a little larger than the trackers.

With a Sami case you'll probably end up too low, even with 4.10s and a 1.7 high range. Depending on the axles, you could go higher, like 3.55s or whatever, but that just puts a lot of stress on the tcase.



As far as the tcase it's self. I'd like to see a decent track/kick trans to Toyota adapter. Just ditch the stock case and go right to the Toyota stuff, it would fit well and work great with the options for lower gears and/or duals.

5.38s and detroits. I ended up going to 38 TSLs and that's when it finally popped. I had a cradle that wrapped around the input and output, but the gear came out in between

 

[2big bronco]

5.38s and detroits. I ended up going to 38 TSLs and that's when it finally popped. I had a cradle that wrapped around the input and output, but the gear came out in between

Im running somewhere between 170-210 rwhp (170 last it was on the dyno before i built the head), a 4.9-1 case, and 5.29 gears. To be fair ive only wheeled it hard 10ish times but havnt broken a tcase yet... but i plan to so i have a full billet case for it.

These are the type of cradles that seem to be keeping them togeather.

 

[2big bronco]

And this is the case thats going in it before i go wheeling again behind this trans.

 

[JR4X]

And this is the case thats going in it before i go wheeling again behind this trans.

That’s gonna be too much work to install. You should just sell it to me. I’ll be in California next month for a race, I’ll pick it up then

 

[Captain]

As far as the tcase it's self. I'd like to see a decent track/kick trans to Toyota adapter. Just ditch the stock case and go right to the Toyota stuff, it would fit well and work great with the options for lower gears and/or duals.

My limited research goes back to swapping (maybe just the tailhousing?) of the AW71 trans and making a DIY adapter to mate the toyota tcases...

Zuwharrie

The world's best Suzuki Samurai offroad forum! Also included are the Geo Tracker, Sidekick, Vitara, and even the occasional Jeep or Toyota!

bbs.zuwharrie.com

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I think the biggest challenge for most is the adapter between the trans and tcase. Both sides are male splined. You would need someone to manufacture the coupler, or weld something together like the kicker3.

There was a company that made an adapter for a 4spd to yota case. Low Range maybe? I cant find anything anymore.