Roll Cage Failures

[bdkw1]

Shit. I totally missed what you were getting at.

That leads me to a question though.

Have you ever seen anyone get black flagged that had wadded their rig to the point of basically being unsafe for the driver and co-driver?

Nope! And I've seen some fucked up shit go by. I don't think there is such a thing as a black flag in Baja.

Shortcourse, as long as it's not on fire they won't do anything.

 

[Rockwood]

Usually is even tied to it with big ass plate gussets


Agree to disagree.
The car needs to finish the race but they absolutely will re-shell it before the next race.

Hey! I agree fucker.

Seriously though, my point was about the FIA's cage requirements with the straight bar to the floor supporting the A-pillar bend. Having any part of the cage that keeps hard shit out of the occupants' grilles act as a crumple zone isn't a good idea. Assuming you have any idea WTF you're doing, leave the crumple zones for the front and rear, not the lid. That's a line that should never be crossed if it can be helped since you're belted in there nice and tight and have nowhere for your noodle to go.

 

[fl0w3n]

This thread gives me analysis paralysis.

For a trail riding rig that drives on the street, it seems easy to do more harm than good by adding an improper cage. Risks to head smacks, modified crumple zones without proper seats and harness etc

I know this question has a million variables and subjectivity, but at what point is a cage gooder than worser? I'm not asking about racing or desert bombing.



My armchair assumptions that have little merit are and are being posed as questions here so I can learn:

Most trail rigs, depending on year, should have enough built in crumple zones and rollover engineering from the OEM to keep occupants safe in a trail roll over condition, for one time only. Obviously there's a million variables to this, like rolling down Black Bear Pass vs flopping on Soup Bowl.
If your goal is to make it so you don't have to throw away your trail rig any time you flop it and start over with an uncompromised body, that's one thing to factor into adding a cage.

But is it a given that just adding a cage is always safer?

I feel like exo's are a good blend between not having to toss your body if you flop once, and keeping it relatively safe for street driving and still an extreme roll over as well. Thoughts?

This random example of a WFO kid's Toyota seems like the most you'd want to do in a street driven rig. Obviously there's the aesthetic subjectivity to it but I'm not asking about that necessarily.

Or like Dave's Mazda - just a roll bar

 

['84 Bronco II]

The cab should not be a crumple zone.

The biggest danger putting a cage in anything, especially a street-driven rig, is not having enough clearance between your body (especially your head) and the cage. Retractable 3 point seat belts and most factory-style seats allow for a lot of movement in a bad accident which makes it really hard to have enough clearance to the bars. Good bolstered seats and harnesses are a very good idea if you are going to put a cage in your rig, as well as proper padding on any tubes that could make contact with your body.

An exo-cage is a pretty good way to go in vehicles with limited cab space; the main draw backs are that it is hard to get good triangulation around the doors and windows (if you want to be able to replace glass), they add width and hang up points, and they generally look ugly

Modern vehicles have to pass roof crush testing, but older ones didn't, and I wouldn't depend on the roof to hold up on those to even a single roll.

 

[fl0w3n]

The cab should not be a crumple zone.

The biggest danger putting a cage in anything, especially a street-driven rig, is not having enough clearance between your body (especially your head) and the cage. Retractable 3 point seat belts and most factory-style seats allow for a lot of movement in a bad accident which makes it really hard to have enough clearance to the bars. Good bolstered seats and harnesses are a very good idea if you are going to put a cage in your rig, as well as proper padding on any tubes that could make contact with your body.

An exo-cage is a pretty good way to go in vehicles with limited cab space; the main draw backs are that it is hard to get good triangulation around the doors and windows (if you want to be able to replace glass), they add width and hang up points, and they generally look ugly

Modern vehicles have to pass roof crush testing, but older ones didn't, and I wouldn't depend on the roof to hold up on those to even a single roll.

Does adding a cage and good bolstered seats then keep you stiff enough that you should be wearing a HANS or else risk breaking your neck in a big impact?

I know I'm going down a rabbit hole of a million scenarios and there probably isn't a single concise answer, but it seems like if you are adding a cage with the expectation that it would keep you from being crushed and safer in a trail rollover/accident situation compared to a non-caged setup injuring you, then that cage would be stiff enough that you would need to be full race safety to just drive on the street and not get t-boned and have all that force transferred into your neck or back (if you just had lap belt of the harness on).

I was originally going to say roughly 95 and newer should have enough OEM engineering, based off my assumption of around the time air bags became required.


I think what I'm trying to say is there's millions of dollars spent by OEM's to engineer something that's safe for most road going accidents, including high speed roll overs. Are we really making it safer by adding a cage without factoring in all the other things to consider?


Edit: also, agree'd that most EXO's look ugly and have other cons to them. But I like the idea of not having to throw away a rig just because it flopped if I want to get into some technical shit. And I'm taller, so if/when I were to ever build a "mini" truck I likely would need to go exo or hybrid or just roll bar to keep from adding danger to my noggin

 

[subybaja]

I think what I'm trying to say is there's millions of dollars spent by OEM's to engineer something that's safe for most road going accidents, including high speed roll overs. Are we really making it safer by adding a cage without factoring in all the other things to consider?

I think 'safe' is at least third on their list, after 'cheap' and 'light'. MPG is more important than safety, or we'd all be required to drive Cadillacs.

When you build a cage, 'safe' is first. So, it's a choice between a driven amateur vs an uninterested pro.

For example:

The reason I ask, is because I've had the pleasure of digging way into the B-pillar on my JKU through the spot welded portion on the inside. I was shocked to find that inside the sheetmetal the tube was only held in place by about an inch of weld in 3 different places. The end of the tube just stops in the rocker and is connected to nothing. It seemed like all the little welds are where the seat belt mounts and door hinges are.

I wasn't impressed with what I saw and was the reason I removed the factory tube and replaced it with a 2"x.120" DOM tube that tied into the frame.

 

[fl0w3n]

I think 'safe' is at least third on their list, after 'cheap' and 'light'. MPG is more important than safety, or we'd all be required to drive Cadillacs.

When you build a cage, 'safe' is first. So, it's a choice between a driven amateur vs an uninterested pro.

For example:

Great point, and even further you bring up more variables to the discussion - base vehicle. Replacing the factory cage in what would otherwise be an open top jeep or adding a roll bar to a flat fender is different than say, a 4th gen 4Runner adding an internal cage. I think it’s safe to say in most scenarios a cage in a Jeep is going to help more than hurt, but that isn’t necessarily the same for the 4Runner example.

I'm probably over thinking this.

 

[Rockwood]

Does adding a cage and good bolstered seats then keep you stiff enough that you should be wearing a HANS or else risk breaking your neck in a big impact?

I know I'm going down a rabbit hole of a million scenarios and there probably isn't a single concise answer, but it seems like if you are adding a cage with the expectation that it would keep you from being crushed and safer in a trail rollover/accident situation compared to a non-caged setup injuring you, then that cage would be stiff enough that you would need to be full race safety to just drive on the street and not get t-boned and have all that force transferred into your neck or back (if you just had lap belt of the harness on).

I was originally going to say roughly 95 and newer should have enough OEM engineering, based off my assumption of around the time air bags became required.


I think what I'm trying to say is there's millions of dollars spent by OEM's to engineer something that's safe for most road going accidents, including high speed roll overs. Are we really making it safer by adding a cage without factoring in all the other things to consider?


Edit: also, agree'd that most EXO's look ugly and have other cons to them. But I like the idea of not having to throw away a rig just because it flopped if I want to get into some technical shit. And I'm taller, so if/when I were to ever build a "mini" truck I likely would need to go exo or hybrid or just roll bar to keep from adding danger to my noggin

Guys have been crashing for years belted in with helmets. HANS has definitely helped, but the chances of you surging a wreck that would cause a basil skull fracture (what a HANS protects against) without a helmet are slimmer than rolling the dice with a helmet.

Like everything in life: compromises.

I personally like hybrid cages. A good way to hide them would be to incorporate a roof rack into it. No way on a street rig that sees recreational wheeling would I put crazy shit all over it like some I see. If you need that much cage, how’s about you just scrap the cab and build a proper cage?

 

[bdkw1]

When JJ went for a swim, everybody was crying that 2 roof bars got ripped out. The thing went off a 20' cliff and landed upside down on a rock. They both walked away from this with now serious injury. To me this is acceptable damage.

 

[Steve300xcw]

When JJ went for a swim, everybody was crying that 2 roof bars got ripped out. The thing went off a 20' cliff and landed upside down on a rock. They both walked away from this with now serious injury. To me this is acceptable damage.

Somethings gotta give. That woulda been a hell of hit

 

[gt1guy]

Just proof that you don't get to choose when/how you crash.

They ended up in the ocean. Doubt they ever thought that would happen.

 

[bdkw1]

Just proof that you don't get to choose when/how you crash.

They ended up in the ocean. Doubt they ever thought that would happen.

When we were marking the course the next year, I put up a sign that said, "Jesse Jones memorial swimming hole"

By race day it was gone, wonder if Jesse got to see it