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Rear steer for full bodied rigs

06h3

Red Skull Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Member Number
2843
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SW Idaho
I went wheeling with a crew cab square body Chevy on front and rear steering 14 bolts, 146in wheelbase and 43's. While 43's are big, they aren't that big for a 146in wheelbase. Let me tell you, holy shit, I have never seen such a big heavy rig act so nimble. It was as nimble as a mildly built TJ. Half the battle with rear steer is knowing how to use it and this guy did. With that said, I can't stop thinking about the rear steer. I am not saying it's going under my rig soon but I would like to hear some personal experience about rear steer in non buggy applications.

(Pic of rear steer rig, frame rails were factory width but the bed is gone)

XtK8Eixl.jpg


So after some research on the old site I haven't found much and my question is

Who has put the rear steer behind a full bodied rig? What did it take? narrowing the frame? cutting up the body? limiting steering angle to 15-20* vs a 30-40*? All the above? Was it worth it?

Building a buggy around rear steer is way easier then a full bodied rig so I was curious what experiences anyone in a toyota pickup, Chevy, 4runner, Jeep JK, etc. have had with making it all work? I would imagine 15-20* of steering is still a hell of a lot better then nothing in the rear.

Flame on...
 
Having a t-case that will survive front dig is probably a better and cheap move then rear steer on a full-size rig.
 
Weasel said:
Having a t-case that will survive front dig is probably a better and cheap move then rear steer on a full-size rig.
Click to expand...
Not sure about better than, but you sure should have it before rear steer. Being able to unload the drivetrain on obstacles is so critical, especially when you weigh more.
 
With Ford 05+ outers being as easy to get as they are, the cost would definitely be lower than it used to be. What was the square body running for Cs and knuckles?
 
There’s a Toyota on the g-ram running rear steer. He’s using it for snow to pick his lines better.

I don’t think you’ll get 50 degrees and getting on an obstacle nose high and turning rear can cause the weight to shift. I would think way more than a buggy. Stubs seems to be the only cone dodger here and could probably speak to it better than me.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8c8OtWHo0Q/?igshid=1eghq1frloaz4
 
Mr Stubs said:
Not sure about better than, but you sure should have it before rear steer. Being able to unload the drivetrain on obstacles is so critical, especially when you weigh more.
Click to expand...

On a buggy yes, on a full bodied I don't think the amount of steer would be as good as having dig, given the cost.. Drag the front/rear around with dig is not as good as rear steer on a buggy but it's pretty dang good. As well and unloading, loading is also helpful if the drivetrain will hold up.

Rear steer breaks alot of parts as well. Not being able to see the rear tires like on a buggy makes it harder. Especially if your not real good or new to it, nearly everyone that can see the rear end forgets the rear is steered.
 
Weasel said:
Having a t-case that will survive front dig is probably a better and cheap move then rear steer on a full-size rig.
Click to expand...

I was genuinely surprised that his rig weighing so much survived even 1 day of wheeling. He has a pretty non forgiving drivetrain since it was a manual and it just took the punishment, it was a 6.0, SM465, to a 208/205, to 14 bolts f/r, they both had chevy kingpin knuckles and RCV's. There was one time he was so bound up he was giving it gas, more gas, more gas and the thing is flat out not moving, he had the tires at full crank opposite direction andI was waiting for parts to fly but sure enough, it popped that 8500 lb rig up and over, I was amazed. It seemed sorted drivetrain wise.

Toreadorranger said:
With Ford 05+ outers being as easy to get as they are, the cost would definitely be lower than it used to be. What was the square body running for Cs and knuckles?
Click to expand...

Yeah it is nice cost wise, my concern would be the balljoints vs kingpins on the rear.

Rangerrod said:
There’s a Toyota on the g-ram running rear steer. He’s using it for snow to pick his lines better.

I don’t think you’ll get 50 degrees and getting on an obstacle nose high and turning rear can cause the weight to shift. I would think way more than a buggy. Stubs seems to be the only cone dodger here and could probably speak to it better than me.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8c8OtWHo0Q/?igshid=1eghq1frloaz4
Click to expand...

Thanks! I will check out his account.

Weasel said:
On a buggy yes, on a full bodied I don't think the amount of steer would be as good as having dig, given the cost.. Drag the front/rear around with dig is not as good as rear steer on a buggy but it's pretty dang good. As well and unloading, loading is also helpful if the drivetrain will hold up.

Rear steer breaks alot of parts as well. Not being able to see the rear tires like on a buggy makes it harder. Especially if your not real good or new to it, nearly everyone that can see the rear end forgets the rear is steered.
Click to expand...

I thought the fact that you can turn and get your tires to bite on the edge of a rock would make a difference but maybe not.

I was surprised at how well it stood up but it was only one day of wheeling. Above explains what I saw that day.
 
Rangerrod said:
There’s a Toyota on the g-ram running rear steer. He’s using it for snow to pick his lines better.

I don’t think you’ll get 50 degrees and getting on an obstacle nose high and turning rear can cause the weight to shift. I would think way more than a buggy. Stubs seems to be the only cone dodger here and could probably speak to it better than me.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8c8OtWH...=1eghq1frloaz4
Click to expand...

There is a group out of the pnw that runs 4ws on a bunch of full body rigs. Xj's, zj's and toyotas.

Didn't the og ultimate avalanche have 4ws?

Edit: yep https://www.fourwheeler.com/vehicle-reviews/131-0409-ultimate-chevrolet-avalanche/


I was pretty tempted to do rear steer on my current beater sidekick build. A member on here has the perfect axle to match my front. Driver drop low pinion king pin 60, it's running a Sami tcase and 6.17s. So lp and the offset works.

My problem is I don't want to spend the cash on all the parts to make it hold up, plus all the steering.
 
Last edited:
I think the avalanche was a perfect example of a vehicle having 4WS. It’s got a drag axle now, not sure why. It could have been useless and added parts or I’ve seen parts get dragged to other projects and then get resurrected, kind of like the double ended JK
 
06h3 said:
I think the avalanche was a perfect example of a vehicle having 4WS. It’s got a drag axle now, not sure why. It could have been useless and added parts or I’ve seen parts get dragged to other projects and then get resurrected, kind of like the double ended JK
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Probably a little bit of parts robbing and it was a big heavy rig with a big block, so I don't see standard 1480 sized chromos lasting long.
 
06h3 said:
Yeah it is nice cost wise, my concern would be the balljoints vs kingpins on the rear.
Click to expand...

05+ outers are big and beefy and there is a balljoint eliminator kit that is cheap and gets rid of the problematic upper balljoints.

Outside of that weak point that is easily addressed, the rest of the outers is a million times bigger/better than the old school chevy KP stuff.




I think rear steer is amazing and that you should totally do it !
 
06h3 said:
Yeah it is nice cost wise, my concern would be the balljoints vs kingpins on the rear.
Click to expand...

Bebop said:
05+ outers are big and beefy and there is a balljoint eliminator kit that is cheap and gets rid of the problematic upper balljoints.

Outside of that weak point that is easily addressed, the rest of the outers is a million times bigger/better than the old school chevy KP stuff.
Click to expand...


kingpin vs 05.png
 

Just to clarify that pic... the jumbo knuckle is an 05+ super 60 off of a factory 10lug truck and not a 1ton?
 
Bebop said:
05+ outers are big and beefy and there is a balljoint eliminator kit that is cheap and gets rid of the problematic upper balljoints.

Outside of that weak point that is easily addressed, the rest of the outers is a million times bigger/better than the old school chevy KP stuff.




I think rear steer is amazing and that you should totally do it !
Click to expand...

Rear steer isnt going in my rig yet, I still want to link the rear and see what full bodied guys are doing and if it was worth it. I have the front dig option with a 205 doubler but am still new to it, same with the suckdown winch. So I am just exploring what guys have already done. Rear steer never came to mind, it was a buggy only item in my mind, until I see that Chevy work so well with it.

2big bronco said:
Just to clarify that pic... the jumbo knuckle is an 05+ super 60 off of a factory 10lug truck and not a 1ton?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that does look bigger then normal. It is also closer in the picture that can make it look bigger. I am not sold on the SD60 C's and BJ's yet. I have seen multiple rigs loose a wheel/hub assembly when a shaft breaks, RCV's can solve that but I still imagine that when you have a 6k lb rig with most of the weight on its rear tires a kingpin will handle it better then a balljoint.

I am totally sold on the unit bearings though, easy to service and beefy. I guess that's why reid has their Super duty kingpin knuckles and C's. best of both worlds.
 
As far as full bodied go just cut till it fits, I have what’s left of a Cherokee with the rear unibody rails in tact. Mine is a 404 so the tires scrub a lot due to the width, but at 120” wheelbase it is nuts how nimble it is. With out it it takes a field to turn around, with it I’m making stock Tj sized turns in one shot. Had it this way 10 years and once you get the hang of it it’s awesome.
 
(o)(o)xj said:
As far as full bodied go just cut till it fits, I have what’s left of a Cherokee with the rear unibody rails in tact. Mine is a 404 so the tires scrub a lot due to the width, but at 120” wheelbase it is nuts how nimble it is. With out it it takes a field to turn around, with it I’m making stock Tj sized turns in one shot. Had it this way 10 years and once you get the hang of it it’s awesome.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your first post and it being here! lol what you are describing sounds exactly like the experience I saw on the chevy. are you getting full lock to lock? Do you have a build thread from the old place?
 
06h3 said:
Yeah, that does look bigger then normal. It is also closer in the picture that can make it look bigger.
Click to expand...

True. but the regular 250/350 05+ SD60s are way bigger/beefier than the old school KP stuff.

I am not sold on the SD60 C's and BJ's yet. I have seen multiple rigs loose a wheel/hub assembly when a shaft breaks
Click to expand...

How? I'm not saying that's impossible but I'd like to see how you loose a hub when a shaft breaks...

I have never seen that happen on an 05+. Never.

RCV's can solve that but I still imagine that when you have a 6k lb rig with most of the weight on its rear tires a kingpin will handle it better then a balljoint.
Click to expand...

I somewhat disagree with that.

If you install an upper balljoint eliminator, the weakness of the upper BJ isn't there anymore. the lower BJ has a 1.25" shaft, you're not bending that.

On the other hand, kingpins are notorious for broken nylon bushings and loose lower bearings, especially in a rear steer application.

If you want to go back to my research about SD and big bells :

https://www.hardlinecrawlers.com/thr...-outers.59807/

I've even made a video with the parts on hand. Forgive my crappy english, second langage



I am totally sold on the unit bearings though, easy to service and beefy. I guess that's why reid has their Super duty kingpin knuckles and C's. best of both worlds.
Click to expand...

They are badass units for sure, but I'm not sure they are that much better than the factory stuff with BJE.
 
Yeah it’s Bolt on bruiser over there, I think most pics are gone. The only thing that barely touches are the leaf springs at stock width. But it’s absolutely as low as your gonna get one with portals and still have any ride quality.

photo37622.jpg


photo37624.jpg
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Probably a little bit of parts robbing and it was a big heavy rig with a big block, so I don't see standard 1480 sized chromos lasting long.
Click to expand...

After he wasted a couple sets of dana 60 ring gears I think he gave up on the idea. I think one time it left him stranded after a UA when the rear blew and took out the transfer case and transmission. https://www.fourwheeler.com/vehicle-reviews/131-0409-ultimate-chevrolet-avalanche/ He figured it was too big and heavy to run a D60 in the rear and at the time 14 bolt fronts were either new and expensive or non-existent.
 
I was building a 14bff rear steer at one point but never finished it. I had $1500 into it and still needed a inner seal and inner shafts made. But that was before the seals-it seals even existed.

I was told to run the castor straight up and figure out a rock solid steering lock out system of you plan to street drive it.

Fwiw i have a bent sd d50 and a dodge d60 that can both be sacraficed to a rear steer build.

What ever you go with i would try my damnedest to avoid locking hubs and ujoints. Rcvs in a dodge fixed flange style would be my goal.
 
total newb said:
Fwiw i have a bent sd d50 and a dodge d60 that can both be sacraficed to a rear steer build.
Click to expand...

Those are 1480 sized knuckles and C's. Way weaker than a set of 05+ outers which will accept 1550 joints / Big Bells.

In a rear steer application especially for a heavy rig, I'd want the beefier setup.
 
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