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Pistol brace ruling - ATF at it again

rockmup said:
The good thing is that as a F1, you assign it a ser#. The brace in this case gets the serial #, this is a win, anything can be a brace, at least until they figure out whats going on and then have to define what a brace actually is. :lmao: Fleshlights and egg beaters for the win.

Finger print cards still need to be mailed in unless its changed in the last 18 months.
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Wait, what? They are going to serialize the braces? That's not how this works.
 
Texas97 said:
Wait, what? They are going to serialize the braces? That's not how this works.
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No its not. You are F1 the braced firearm. The brace does not get a SN

They are asking for pictures for later evidence in your trial to ensure that you are registering things that actually have a brace. But then you can swap it for a stock (per their FAQs). So then you have braces lying around and pistols which i'm sure won't be a constructive intent charge
 
Texas97 said:
Wait, what? They are going to serialize the braces? That's not how this works.
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No its not how its supposed to work but several trigger packs are serialized, its not always the weapon. I read this as the braces are the NFA item, not the whole gun.
Maybe i read it wrong or saw what I wanted to see

kf4zht said:
No its not. You are F1 the braced firearm. The brace does not get a SN

They are asking for pictures for later evidence in your trial to ensure that you are registering things that actually have a brace. But then you can swap it for a stock (per their FAQs). So then you have braces lying around and pistols which i'm sure won't be a constructive intent charge
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Are you sure ? They are declaring the brace to be an NFA item. Thats how I read it, if you read it differently, show me.
 
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rockmup said:
Are you sure ? They are declaring the brace to be an NFA item. Thats how I read it, if you read it differently, show me.
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I feel the same way. The AFT said themselves that they do not regulate accessories.
 
rockmup said:
No its not how its supposed to work but several trigger packs are serialized, its not always the weapon. I read this as the braces are the NFA item, not the whole gun.
Maybe i read it wrong or saw what I wanted to see



Are you sure ? They are declaring the brace to be an NFA item. Thats how I read it, if you read it differently, show me.
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They are declaring the brace is a stock and therefore its a SBR aka a NFA firearm. They are not saying braces are NFA items. You will still be able to buy a brace without a stamp. Its just as soon as you put it on a pistol, BAM, SBR.
 
Toreadorranger said:
They are declaring the brace is a stock and therefore its a SBR aka a NFA firearm. They are not saying braces are NFA items. You will still be able to buy a brace without a stamp. Its just as soon as you put it on a pistol, BAM, SBR.
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But only if it’s a certain type of brace. Other brace types will be fine without a stamp. And of course the definitions of what types are acceptable and what kinds aren’t will be arbitrary and subject to change at any time.
 
animator said:
But only if it’s a certain type of brace. Other brace types will be fine without a stamp. And of course the definitions of what types are acceptable and what kinds aren’t will be arbitrary and subject to change at any time.
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No. It isn’t. It’s any ‘stabilizing brace’ designed for people who need assistance for shooting. They’re all designed to circumvent the NFA registration.
 
rockmup said:
No its not how its supposed to work but several trigger packs are serialized, its not always the weapon. I read this as the braces are the NFA item, not the whole gun.
Maybe i read it wrong or saw what I wanted to see



Are you sure ? They are declaring the brace to be an NFA item. Thats how I read it, if you read it differently, show me.
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Pretty clear if you read the FAQs (grabbing a few here)

6. WHAT ARE THE COMPLIANCE OPTIONS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL (NON-LICENSEE) IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM EQUIPPED WITH A “STABILIZING BRACE,” WHICH IS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR), AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE FINAL RULE? • Submit through the eForms system an Application to Make and Register a Firearm, ATF Form 1 (EForm 1) within 120-days from the date of publication in the Federal Register. • Permanently remove or alter the “stabilizing brace” so that it cannot be reattached and thereby removing it from regulation as a “firearm” under the NFA. • Remove the short barrel and attach a 16-inch or longer rifled barrel to the firearm thus removing it from the provisions of the NFA. • Turn the firearm into your local ATF office. • Destroy the firearm. For more information go to How to Properly Destroy Firearms | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (atf.gov).


ONCE THE FIREARM IS REGISTERED AS A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR) CAN I REMOVE/CHANGE THE “STABILIZING BRACE” OR ATTACH AN ITEM MARKETED AS A STOCK? IF SO, AM I REQUIRED TO NOTIFY ATF IN ADVANCE? • Yes, the firearm is registered as an SBR, and you can change out the “brace” device or stock for a different brace or stock. You do not need to contact ATF/NFA because changing the brace/stock 5 does not change the configuration of the SBR. However, if the length of the firearm has changed you will need to notify the NFA Division.

15. IF I ATTACHED MY “STABILIZING BRACE” ON A RIFLE WITH A 16” BARREL, WILL THE FIREARM FALL WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE NFA? • Generally, no. A rifle with a barrel (rifled) of at least 16 inches would not be an SBR under the NFA regardless of whether it incorporates a “stabilizing brace” or traditional shoulder stock. Note, the firearm would need to retain an overall length of at least 26 inches and not fall into other NFA categories. Firearms with an attached “brace” device may be submitted to FATD for a determination.

16. CAN I LEGALLY SELL MY “STABILIZING BRACE” TO SOMEONE WHO MAY BE INTERESTED IN MAKING A SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE (SBR)? EVEN AFTER THE TAX FORBEARANCE PERIOD TERMINATES? • ATF does not regulate the sale of firearm accessories.

17. IS THE “STABILIZING BRACE,” BY ITSELF, AN ITEM THAT REQUIRES REGISTRATION UNDER NFA? • No, a “stabilizing brace” is an accessory and ATF does not regulate accessories. However, a firearm equipped with a “stabilizing brace” may be subject to registration if it is an SBR because it is “designed, redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder,” as described by the amended definition of “rifle” in the Code of Federal Regulations and has a barrel(s) of less than 16 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches.


All they did was say that except within the very small category of firearms (which are extremely vague) a brace=a stock. If you have a brace on something with less than a 16" barrel you are currently a felon in violation of the NFA. However if you do your civic duty and register it within 120 days they will not file charges (maybe).

So you can remove the brace, replace the barrel, register it or destroy it. You can't sell it (since its an unlicensed SBR). There is some guidance that suggests as soon as you file the registration you can swap it for a stock, since in their eyes you are already in possession of an unregistered SBR.
 
kf4zht said:
Which sounds a lot like a registration trap
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But, recall the '68 MG Amnesty, some people (smart people) used this amnesty to game the AFT in order to register their plain-Jane semi-auto SP1's (stolen or not) as machineguns, no questions asked. The only difference now is that the AFT is seeking photographic evidence which may or may not be "incriminating". In '68 that might have prevented the aforementioned. Lessons learned? :confused:
 
kf4zht said:
Which sounds a lot like a registration trap
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Thanks for the cut and past above, i hadn't seen that before. I stand corrected.
It does mean you can SBR/SBS every thing you own with the same stock. I'm good with that since I can't change the direction they are going, I'll just make the best of it. If there is such a thing.
Not worried about registration, as an F1 we make the serial # so not a big deal.
PSA - list the barrel as short as you can for everything. You can always put a longer barrel on them but a shorter barrel is frowned upon
 
FrankenToy said:
But, recall the '68 MG Amnesty, some people (smart people) used this amnesty to game the AFT in order to register their plain-Jane semi-auto SP1's (stolen or not) as machineguns, no questions asked. The only difference now is that the AFT is seeking photographic evidence which may or may not be "incriminating". In '68 that might have prevented the aforementioned. Lessons learned? :confused:
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Some people, who were not legally allowed to OWN firearms, used the 1968 machine gun amnesty to legally own a class 3 firearm. Amnesty applied to everyone.
 
kf4zht said:
Which sounds a lot like a registration trap
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Last time I checked all class 3 firearms were required to be registered.
The part I DON’T know about is if it can become a fully automatic firearm once registered as a form 1 without needing to pay more money.
 
RunningProblem said:
Last time I checked all class 3 firearms were required to be registered.
The part I DON’T know about is if it can become a fully automatic firearm once registered as a form 1 without needing to pay more money.
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Yes, title 2 firearms are required to be registered. However this ruling is taking a large number of Title 1 firearms (pistols that have a stability aiding device) and turning them into title 2 firearms.

For an unlicensed person (aka not a dealer) - no. You cannot register any new fully automatic weapons on a form 1. If you invent a time machine and go back to before the 1986 laws you could....

For an FFL with SOT you can register a new fully automatic weapon on a form 2 for limited purposes including sales to MIL and LEO, R&D, etc. You are not required to have a request letter however they can question builds that do not serve a business purpose.

Likely someone in this confusion will attempt to register a MG and see if it gets through in the mess. Someone did this a few years back and the TLDR - he didn't win. ATF Approves Post-86 Machine Gun Form 1 - Since the 1986 ban was based on a congress passed law and not an ATF ruling the only way to get around it is to get congress to repeal the NFA (not likely) or find the entire basis of the law unconstitutional (more likely, but still a long shot)
 
I was talking about people who registered machine guns legally when there was an amnesty period. I wasn’t talking about registering a machine gun under the brace pistol registration.
 
If you own a brace, buy a 16+” barreled upper if you don't already have one.
Build a new lower/reconfigure a 2nd lower with a smooth pistol buffer.
Your brace lower legally goes with the rifle barrel, the pistol upper has a legal pistol lower.
Wait until courts strike this BS down
???
Profit?
 
posford said:
If you own a brace, buy a 16+” barreled upper if you don't already have one.
Build a new lower/reconfigure a 2nd lower with a smooth pistol buffer.
Your brace lower legally goes with the rifle barrel, the pistol upper has a legal pistol lower.
Wait until courts strike this BS down
???
Profit?
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What about the SB Tactical braced MP5 clone, Uzis, 10/22 Charger, and Recover Tactical Glock? Asking for a friend.
 
As long as this is tied up in court I don't have to do shit correct?

Also, I thought heard that if you intend to cross state lines with an SBR you have to notify/ask permission to do so.

Sounds like another way to become a felon real easy by forgetting to do so.

Am I wrong on that?
 
Flatbed said:
As long as this is tied up in court I don't have to do shit correct?

Also, I thought heard that if you intend to cross state lines with an SBR you have to notify/ask permission to do so.

Sounds like another way to become a felon real easy by forgetting to do so.

Am I wrong on that?
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Nope. You’re required to get permission from big daddy gov to transport SBRs across state lines. Most folks who do that sort of thing regularly will fill out the form for a full year period, that way you only have to do it once per year.
 
Flatbed said:
As long as this is tied up in court I don't have to do shit correct?

Am I wrong on that?
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Yes. You maybe wrong. I think SCOTUS just ruled the NY bullshit laws could stand while it goes through court. I would expect the brace rule gets overturned based on the bumpstock ruling. In the mean time I would make sure that I wasnt keeping any unattached shoulderable brace anywhere near any "pistol" it can go on. Like posford said slap that bitch on a 16"+ gun till this shits settled, fill out a form1, or from my reading (not legal advice just an internet schmuck) put it in a box and keep it somewhere else.
 
Stuck said:
Yes. You maybe wrong. I think SCOTUS just ruled the NY bullshit laws could stand while it goes through court. I would expect the brace rule gets overturned based on the bumpstock ruling. In the mean time I would make sure that I wasnt keeping any unattached shoulderable brace anywhere near any "pistol" it can go on. Like posford said slap that bitch on a 16"+ gun till this shits settled, fill out a form1, or from my reading (not legal advice just an internet schmuck) put it in a box and keep it somewhere else.
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Its just a stock now. You can have extra stocks so long as you have a gun they could legally attach to. Only issue would be if you had say a 1913 brace and the only guns with 1913 backends were sub 16". If that's the case just dump it at a friends house.

They timed this well over a long federal holiday so nothing can really be done about it in courts for several days while the internet frets. But I did see a some folks are protesting shot show to not allow the ATF onsite as it creates a hostile environment. Would not want to be working that booth this week either way.
 
So hypothetically, If a person built a pistol lower a while back but never bought a barrel/upper for it, would now be a stupid time to buy one?
Assuming said person had no intentions of registering shit
 
kf4zht said:
Its just a stock now. You can have extra stocks so long as you have a gun they could legally attach to. Only issue would be if you had say a 1913 brace and the only guns with 1913 backends were sub 16". If that's the case just dump it at a friends house.

They timed this well over a long federal holiday so nothing can really be done about it in courts for several days while the internet frets. But I did see a some folks are protesting shot show to not allow the ATF onsite as it creates a hostile environment. Would not want to be working that booth this week either way.
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I dont think the holiday had anything to do with it. I think they said tere was a 60 day grace period which will almost have to be extended. There are millions of braces that fit the ruling and there is no way they have the infrastructure to handle that many registrations in 60 days.
 
Flatbed said:
Would it be ok if it was in a drop leg holster?









Sorry couldn't resist...:lmao:
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Well that would certainly show the ATF how tacticool one is and that one is not to be trifled with.
 
The atf can't even keep up with background checks now. This will be a cluster fuck.
 
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