Old dial lock safe combo tech?

[bgaidan]

I picked up this old Mosler for $17 on Govdeals the other day. They didn't have the combo for it, but luckily it was "locked" open.

Also luckily, I found it to have a "hand change" combo. Basically you can pull the plates apart and set the combo by the dial on the plates. No special tools needed.

So I opened the plates and deciphered the old combo from those. I can run the combo thorough and get the plates to line up, but the problem I'm running in to is that the "driving" plate - the one you see inside the door with the round notch in it, needs to come back to about 3:00 in this picture, which is about 0 on the front dial. Then I try turning back to zero from the last number, it scrambles the plate for the last number and, of course, won't let the latch open.

^In that pic, the plates are lined up in the right location, the plate in the door would need to rotate about 80 degrees to line up with the combo plates to actuate the latch.

This is the position it's in when it unlocks the latch. It has to rotate clockwise to actuate it, which would be counterclockwise/left from the front dial.

Everything I'm seeing says it should be a 4-3-2 dial - at least 4 turns left, turn right and pass the next number twice and stop on the 3rd, turn left and pass the last number once and stop on it the second time - and then it should be right to zero, but that last move to zero throws the plates out of alignment.


What am I doing wrong?

 

[pdangerp]

Who makes the lock? S&G?

 

[total newb]

Safe Dude

 

[bgaidan]

Who makes the lock? S&G?

It's labeled mosler on the back cover. Looks like they made their own.


What's can confusing is all the directions I've found says you have to turn right past zero after the final number to open the latch. With the plate stack removed, I can see that it will only engage the latch when turning left. You could go right to zero and then left, but even trying any combination of those moves, I can't get it to engage the latch even when the correct combo is in and the plates are lined up.

 

[JeepinPete]

Wild ass guess, but it looks like the bore of the plates is dragging on the dial shaft. That might be dragging the plates out of alignment.

 

[mobil1syn]

Safe Dude

 

[dunno]

The combo stuff doesn't process well in my head, all the rotations. Might it have to do with which side of the lug in the brass plate that the lug on the driving plate is on, when you slide the brass plates into their position?

I'm 99.999% sure you've tried both, but different eyes and whatnot.

 

[DT75FLH]

We had an old safe at work, and it was set up where you opened a combination. You left the last number on and it would open.

And if you carefully turn lock to zero but did not spin the dial, you can go back to the last number in the combo and it would open it up again like a quick open feature

 

[Spreader]

In most cases when closing and locking the safe you turn the dial right four turns back to zero. To reset/scrmble the plates for the first number four turns left.

 

[[486]]

does it go to zero at the end, or is it one of them that you just turn it back the other way until it stops?
like the dial has a positive stop that it clunks against when turning it backwards after you put in the correct combo

 

[Vinman]

I picked up this old Mosler for $17 on Govdeals the other day. They didn't have the combo for it, but luckily it was "locked" open.

Also luckily, I found it to have a "hand change" combo. Basically you can pull the plates apart and set the combo by the dial on the plates. No special tools needed.

So I opened the plates and deciphered the old combo from those. I can run the combo thorough and get the plates to line up, but the problem I'm running in to is that the "driving" plate - the one you see inside the door with the round notch in it, needs to come back to about 3:00 in this picture, which is about 0 on the front dial. Then I try turning back to zero from the last number, it scrambles the plate for the last number and, of course, won't let the latch open.

^In that pic, the plates are lined up in the right location, the plate in the door would need to rotate about 80 degrees to line up with the combo plates to actuate the latch.

This is the position it's in when it unlocks the latch. It has to rotate clockwise to actuate it, which would be counterclockwise/left from the front dial.

Everything I'm seeing says it should be a 4-3-2 dial - at least 4 turns left, turn right and pass the next number twice and stop on the 3rd, turn left and pass the last number once and stop on it the second time - and then it should be right to zero, but that last move to zero throws the plates out of alignment.


What am I doing wrong?

Did you try stopping on the last number then attempt to open the door instead of going back to zero?

 

[Benny]

I have a safe that has a very similar dial setup and I stop on theast number and turn the lever to open the door. No return to zero

 

[Texas97]

i have a mosler thats the same. pm me and ill go open mine and walk you through

 

[bgaidan]

The combo stuff doesn't process well in my head, all the rotations. Might it have to do with which side of the lug in the brass plate that the lug on the driving plate is on, when you slide the brass plates into their position?

I'm 99.999% sure you've tried both, but different eyes and whatnot.

No, I had the same thought as you at first and was afraid I wasn't putting it back in the socket in the right orientation, but after looking at it a few times, it doesn't matter because the drive plate will rotate around from either direction - that's the whole point of rotating left, right, left for each number.

Now, that being said, it's very possible that someone was in here before me and messed it up. The fact that everything I'm finding says you turn to the right to zero to hit and open the latch yet this one will 100% not open the latch when turning to the right. Maybe the latch catch was installed upside down?

The closest I got was going right back to zero and then turning left to ~10 and it engaged. But I did this while pulling the plate cartridge out several times to look at the position of the plates. I couldn't reproduce it "blind" by just turning the dial though the (alleged) proper sequence.

We had an old safe at work, and it was set up where you opened a combination. You left the last number on and it would open.

And if you carefully turn lock to zero but did not spin the dial, you can go back to the last number in the combo and it would open it up again like a quick open feature

I have a safe that has a very similar dial setup and I stop on theast number and turn the lever to open the door. No return to zero

Did you try stopping on the last number then attempt to open the door instead of going back to zero?

Nope, the notch in the drive plate is pointing at ~11:00 when the last number is entered. It has to be rotated back to zero to engage the latch.

In most cases when closing and locking the safe you turn the dial right four turns back to zero. To reset/scrmble the plates for the first number four turns left.

Exactly how I think this is supposed to work....according to docs for similar moslers and some vids I've found.

does it go to zero at the end, or is it one of them that you just turn it back the other way until it stops?
like the dial has a positive stop that it clunks against when turning it backwards after you put in the correct combo

i have a mosler thats the same. pm me and ill go open mine and walk you through

Sweet. I'm gonna fuck with it in the AM and will shoot you a PM if I'm still stuck.

 

[Pony_Driver]

The one's I have seen that go back to 0 were S&G. You put the combo in, then carefully turned it back to 0, THEN you turn the little lever in the middle to lock the plates together. THEN you turn the dial to the left. You can feel whether or not it's locked immediately.

 

[bgaidan]

The one's I have seen that go back to 0 were S&G. You put the combo in, then carefully turned it back to 0, THEN you turn the little lever in the middle to lock the plates together. THEN you turn the dial to the left. You can feel whether or not it's locked immediately.

Definitely not on this one. You have to have all 4 plates lined up AND the latch engaged before you can move the handle. The latch is 100% engaged by turning the dial.


This is the video I originally watched to figure out how to decipher or change the combo. It looks like a newer version of mine, but it's functionally the same, except the as far as the plates and driver go. The latch itself looks different, but he doesn't really get in to it.

Skipped to where he's entering the combo and unlocking it

 

[Texas97]

No, I had the same thought as you at first and was afraid I wasn't putting it back in the socket in the right orientation, but after looking at it a few times, it doesn't matter because the drive plate will rotate around from either direction - that's the whole point of rotating left, right, left for each number.

Now, that being said, it's very possible that someone was in here before me and messed it up. The fact that everything I'm finding says you turn to the right to zero to hit and open the latch yet this one will 100% not open the latch when turning to the right. Maybe the latch catch was installed upside down?

The closest I got was going right back to zero and then turning left to ~10 and it engaged. But I did this while pulling the plate cartridge out several times to look at the position of the plates. I couldn't reproduce it "blind" by just turning the dial though the (alleged) proper sequence.





Nope, the notch in the drive plate is pointing at ~11:00 when the last number is entered. It has to be rotated back to zero to engage the latch.


Exactly how I think this is supposed to work....according to docs for similar moslers and some vids I've found.





Sweet. I'm gonna fuck with it in the AM and will shoot you a PM if I'm still stuck.

the first number needs to be right atleast 4 times passing the arrow. so it could roll past ten times before stopping on your number. this is key because it gets all wheels caught up where they are supposed to go.

then left to stop on your number the 3rd time, right to stop on your number the 2nd, then its left passed zero until the last one falls into the fixed notch. likely can't turn it past like 8 or 9.. then it opens. you feel when it drops into the notch

 

[bgaidan]

the first number needs to be right atleast 4 times passing the arrow. so it could roll past ten times before stopping on your number. this is key because it gets all wheels caught up where they are supposed to go.

then left to stop on your number the 3rd time, right to stop on your number the 2nd, then its left passed zero until the last one falls into the fixed notch. likely can't turn it past like 8 or 9.. then it opens. you feel when it drops into the notch

If you watch that vid I posted, it's "at least 4" to the LEFT (not right), 3 right, 2 left. Are you saying yours starts with right turns?


The disc stack just pops out of the back, so I can easily pop it out and see that they're lined up after dialing in the combo, and when turning back to zero, they get really close to letting the latch drop in, but it doesn't. Sometimes when I pull the cartridge and then put it straight back in, the latch immediately drops in and it can open, but I if I try to manipulate that last move in the blind (going right to zero and then left like I can do when I can physically see the latch exposed, I can't get it to engage.


So I'm half convinced that either 1) The dial is just slightly out of time and even though my discs are lining up, they're not in the exact position they need to be to engage the lock or 2) Someone had previously fucked with the latch and it's in backwards, which is what it want to actuate when turning to the left instead of right.

 

[[486]]

The one's I have seen that go back to 0 were S&G.

Yeah the one I'm thinking of where you turn back to a clunk is an s&g, oops

 

[WaterH]

Whatever you do, I would lock it a number of times before actually shutting the door.

 

[Texas97]

If you watch that vid I posted, it's "at least 4" to the LEFT (not right), 3 right, 2 left. Are you saying yours starts with right turns?

my mosler i date to the 30s. it may be opposite of yours. newer versions are that way.

 

[Texas97]

Whatever you do, I would lock it a number of times before actually shutting the door.

this lacks self confidence

 

[bgaidan]

my mosler i date to the 30s. it may be opposite of yours. newer versions are that way.

This one is probably from the 50's or 60's. The serial number doesn't match the format from the tables I see online, but it has a "Manual of Burglary Insurance Classification, Oct. 1, 1955" plate on it so it'd have to be after that date.

I haven't been able to find any other examples of this exact lock. I've found plenty of other moslers that look identical, just not quite the same hardware.


If you get a chance, can you snap a pic of the inside of your door showing the back of the dial assembly?

 

[Texas97]

This one is probably from the 50's or 60's. The serial number doesn't match the format from the tables I see online, but it has a "Manual of Burglary Insurance Classification, Oct. 1, 1955" plate on it so it'd have to be after that date.

I haven't been able to find any other examples of this exact lock. I've found plenty of other moslers that look identical, just not quite the same hardware.


If you get a chance, can you snap a pic of the inside of your door showing the back of the dial assembly?

yes, after soccer, probably around 1 central

 

[Texas97]

well.... you get it all fixed up?

what does the inside look like?

 

[bgaidan]

Thanks to Texas97 I learned that my biggest problem was that I was that my rotations were backwards. All the docs and videos I found said it was L-R-L and then R to open. I could tell it wasn't R to open, but didn't realize that would also mean that it should be R-L-R and L to open. His safe is slightly older than mine, but the guts and operation were pretty much identical.

I also figured out that I was off 1 or 2 numbers on my first number. When I took the dials apart to read the old combo, I intentionally didn't change it as to not introduce another potential error in opening it. The numbers go counterclockwise on the dials and it's easy to read on the wrong side of a marked number. So if it were, say on 19, it's only 1 past the marked 20 and I read it the wrong direction as 21. I've heard that most safe dials will be +/- one number, but apparently not 2. I figured it by putting in the combo and then pulling the stack out and noticed that the first disc wasn't quite aligned with the other 2....just enough to not let the latch drop in.


Nothing special about the inside.

I figure I might as well paint it before I drag it inside. I'll probably give it a quick cleaning and scuff tomorrow and hit it with a rattle can of hammered paint that I think I have sitting on the shelf.

 

[[486]]

Thanks to Texas97 I learned that my biggest problem was that I was that my rotations were backwards. All the docs and videos I found said it was L-R-L and then R to open. I could tell it wasn't R to open, but didn't realize that would also mean that it should be R-L-R and L to open. His safe is slightly older than mine, but the guts and operation were pretty much identical.

is the first number you input rotating the dial so the numbers are counting up from zero?
that's how I remember which direction is first in the 'back and forth' game

 

[bgaidan]

is the first number you input rotating the dial so the numbers are counting up from zero?
that's how I remember which direction is first in the 'back and forth' game

Nope, turning right is counting down 🤷‍♂️

 

[Safe Dude]

Safe Dude

there are so many old locks i haven't seen yet i couldn't add to this other than say google is your friend but you first must identify what you have .

 

[Texas97]

there are so many old locks i haven't seen yet i couldn't add to this other than say google is your friend but you first must identify what you have .

Google screwed him, but irate saved the day.