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night vision or thermal

thanks man
they caught my eye on price alone

I mean shit their little lower resolution ts19-256 ones are a thousand bucks, wtf, that's some future shit
I have read/heard that when you get down to the 19-256 range and lower the image quality really drops off and you are just kinda wasting your money. But I guess that all depends on what your expectations and needs are.

I mainly considered 3 things when looking at/for thermals...
Objective size (19, 25, 35, 50, etc.) That is the size of the lens that is gathering the thermal signature. The higher the number, the better.
Resolution (256, 384, 640, etc.) That is how many pixels make up the image. The higher the number, the more detail the image will have.
Micron size (12 or 17). This is the size of the pixels that make up the image. 12 is better than 17, as the pixels are smaller, so therefore there is more detail in the image.

One other thing that I looked at was the refresh rate (I think 50hz is pretty standard on most decent quality thermals). Once you get into the lower refresh rates (the lower than 50hz range), there is noticeable lag and/or blurryness in the image as it or you move. Some really low end thermals/monoculars have as low as 9hz refresh rate. Not a big deal if you are just looking around. But if the thermal is a gun mounted scope and you are trying to hit a moving target, that is not good.

Don't get me wrong, even the low end thermals are kinda amazing to the average consumer. But the medium range thermals, like the AGMs IMO, kinda blows my mind for the quality vs price. Of course anyone that has been in the military and used military grade thermals probably will say these consumer grade thermals are crap...and they very well may be, compared to military grade stuff.
 
If you want a nice thermal at a nice price point, look at the AGM Rattler line.
Awhile back I picked up a brand new Rattler TS25-384 (25mm objective, 384 resolution) 17 micron for $1800ish from shootingsurplus.com. I was very impressed with the clarity/resolution/detail of the picture. I hear the AGMs use the same thermal technology as what Bearing Optics uses in their thermals (which is different from what most/all other thermals use), which makes the AGM and BO work a little better in higher humidity situations. I don't recall what they call the technology, off the top of my head.
I have looked through ATN and Pulsar thermals (these are $4-5K thermals) and my AGM Rattler blows them away, IMO. Not to mention the AGMs are cheaper. I can easily see birds/mice at 80-100 yards with the Rattler.
I was originally looking at the Hogster/Super Hogster from Bearing Optics, but ran across the AGM Rattlers, and thought I'd give one of them a shot (mainly, because I had heard they were coming out with a new version of the Super Hogster later this year that has a LRF (laser range finder) built into it). I was thinking I needed an LRF, because it is hard to judge distances in unfamiliar territory at night. But after having the AGM, I might look at the AGM Varmint line with the LRF for my main gun mounted thermal. But I haven't fully convinced myself I need an LRF on a thermal yet. But when I do decide, I am 99% sure it will be either an AGM or Bearing Optics thermal, LRF or not.
I picked up the Rattler TS-25 to use as a scanner/monocular, but still have the option to use it as a scope. I thought about buying just a quality monocular...but it just works as a monocular and nothing more. Yes, the scope is heavier than a monocular and larger (but as far as thermal scopes go, the Rattlers are actually pretty compact compared to most) but I don't have any issues with the size or weight when using it as a scanner.
My dad picked up a Rattler TS35-640 12 micron. Honestly, I am not sure the extra cost (I think his was $3200ish) is worth the "upgrade" to 35mm and 640 resolution and 12 micron. You can see a little more details in objects with his vs. mine and you can click one zoom level (2x) with his and still have a fairly decent image, where on mine you pretty much lose the image (gets very grainy). When I decide on my gun mounted thermal, I might have to go with the 640 and 12 micron, just to have the ability to zoom at least once and still have a clear enough image to get on target.
Both use the 123 sized batteries (yeah, the little expensive fuckers). I run mine off a external Anker battery pack ($20ish on Amazon) that fits in a shirt/coat pocket. It is about the size of a pack of cigs and I have yet to need to recharge it (probably ran the thermal 10-12 hours so far off of it).
Both AGM thermals have 16GB of built in storage (no memory card). I usually just turn on the recording and let it run the whole time I am scanning. That way if I see something, I don't have to fumble around with starting the recording. In the 3 or 4 hours a night I am out, it hasn't even came close to filling up the 8GB. I usually download/erase the video each night, to clean up the memory. I probably have 8 hours of recording on it now, since I haven't cleared the memory from a couple of nights and it is just starting to show that it starting to fill the card. It does compress the video, so what you record is lesser quality than what you see when looking through the scope.
This is my .02 after hum-hoing around and spending countless hours researching thermals, watching videos, etc., to try to decide which one would work for my use and be the best bang for the buck.
Excellent post. I’ve done enough research to make me dizzy.
 
Big difference between a hunting setup and home defense setup.

For a budget hunting setup, the best bang for the buck without being junk is a Sightmark Wraith plus something like an AGM thermal monocular. For $1,050 it’s not a bad setup.



Night vision is preferable for target ID before breaking the shot, it might be a coyote or the neighbor’s dog. Thermal is superior for target detection/scanning, especially if you don’t want to have to hold your rifle and look through the scope to see anything.
 
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I have a ATN X-sight w/ a 850 IR light and the ABL laser range finder on my coyote AR and have had great success and stayed within my budget. It has a ton of features.



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I have a AGM Rattler TS25-384 and a helmet mounted pvs14.

The AGM is ok. It works fine but has a couple glitches and annoyances. With the 25mm lense and 384 core it's only good for 100 yards or so for identification. The base magnification is 1.5, at 2x base it's getting pixilated but usable. At 4x and 8x it's useless. I watch deer out to 400 yards all the time, but I know they are deer. To identify dog vs coyote beyond 100 yards would be difficult.

I run this on a subsonic 300 blk. SBR or 22 and try to keep shots under 50 yards. The 25mm 384 works good for this. For longer ranges I'd want a 50mm 640.

The helmet mounted pvs14 is fun to use. To be able to walk around without holding anything up to your face. Throw a ir lazer on the rifle and you don't need to even bring the gun up to shoot. These little tor-mini are reasonable priced and work out to 150, 200 yards Steiner/TNVC TOR-MINI IR VPC (Variable Power Control) (v)2

I started with thermal first then added the helmet and pvs14. It would be hard to choose what I like better they both have pros and cons.

This video is a nice comparison


486 I'm about a hour and half from you. If you want to try them out.
 
I just got to play with this.


It works fantastic. No problem even 500’ away. Definitely can’t see anyone inside a car. Also you can’t see anything if you are in the car. (Through the glass) So not as good as night vision for driving without lights.

I need to read through this thread again to see if there’s something better, but I’m probably going to order one of these for educational reasons.
 
I just got to play with this.


It works fantastic. No problem even 500’ away. Definitely can’t see anyone inside a car. Also you can’t see anything if you are in the car. (Through the glass) So not as good as night vision for driving without lights.

I need to read through this thread again to see if there’s something better, but I’m probably going to order one of these for educational reasons.
If you are going to get this one, here it is a little cheaper than OP.
 
What is an option for seeing rats at night, will thermal pick up an animal that small?
 
What is an option for seeing rats at night, will thermal pick up an animal that small?
Depends on the quality of the thermal and what distance you are talking about. If you are talking <100 yards, then most thermals should pick them up. With the lower quality thermals the image will be very pixelated.
 
Depends on the quality of the thermal and what distance you are talking about. If you are talking <100 yards, then most thermals should pick them up. With the lower quality thermals the image will be very pixelated.
Yeah, like 50 yards tops. Im okay with pixelation…I think. this is just for home use, casual rat extermination.
 
I have a gen3 PVS-14 I mount behind the scope on my 5.56AR. Works great. Has a QD mount so I can pull it off and use it as a monocular.

PVS14 is only rated to 5.56 if mounted on a gun. If you want NV on something bigger, you need a NV scope. The NV scopes have better shock mitigation to protect the tube.

Unfilmed white phosphor tubes are the top of the line right now.


Also have a FLIR Pro PTS736 thermal scope. Thermal doesn't care what caliber gun you put it on.
 
Thermal doesn't care what caliber gun you put it on.
thats not true. thermal companies will give their product a upper caliber rating. i think the Hogster R was only good up to 308, which meant none of the bigger 450 bushmaster etc
 
Anyone used the Burris stuff? I can get a pretty decent discount on the bts35 through distribution and have good luck with Burris in the past, but I'm assuming they are just rebranding these.

Not even sure what I would use it for, but the price is tempting for something to play with
 
What is the top of the line gen of PVS-14 ?
from the reading I've done, it is kinda subjective which tubes you personally prefer

with this whole ukraine thing, it is kinda also tempered by 'what you can find for sale'
 
thats not true. thermal companies will give their product a upper caliber rating. i think the Hogster R was only good up to 308, which meant none of the bigger 450 bushmaster etc

You're right, I stand corrected. Looked up a few and some did have a rating. I'm about to find out if mine will like sitting on a 338LM.


What is the top of the line gen of PVS-14 ?

Gen 3 is the highest. Including the military.

The high end of Gen 3 was called Pinnacle for a while.......don't see it used much anymore. The mack daddy tubes are the Un-filmed White Phosphor. L3Harris makes the tubes.


Here's your top of the line PVS-14..............for now anyways.

 
I have a AGM Rattler TS25-384
so yeah... you weren't shitting, these things really ain't the best for general use
it is really cool to be able to see heat, but the night vision monocular would have probably been a better investment for what I was imagining
it is indeed really fiddly and very much more a 'hunting' type of optic rather than a tactical tommy high speed sorta deal

it is however really cool to be able to see and vaporize squirrels without even really trying to see where they are in the tree
 
so yeah... you weren't shitting, these things really ain't the best for general use
it is really cool to be able to see heat, but the night vision monocular would have probably been a better investment for what I was imagining
it is indeed really fiddly and very much more a 'hunting' type of optic rather than a tactical tommy high speed sorta deal

it is however really cool to be able to see and vaporize squirrels without even really trying to see where they are in the tree
I guess it depends on what you are wanting to do with it. If you are just using it for general observation, then once you get everything set on it...focus, color, etc, then it should basically be a turn it on and use it thing. You shouldn't have to fiddle with the settings and such. There are a lot of options you can set/change if needed/wanted, but not really required, if you are just using it for observation, IMO.
 
So I got to play around with a couple more AGM thermals over the last few weeks.

The first was the new TS35-384 Adder that AGM came out with. My dad picked it up to put on one of his guns. I must say, it is a pretty awesome thermal for the price (under $1900 at the time...on sale with his dealer price). He put it on a 6 ARC, I believe it was. Once sighted in at 50 yards. I was able to ring the "heart" of coyote silhouettes at 100, 200, 250 yards consistently and hit 12", 10", 8", round gongs at 320 yards consistently and occasionally the 6" round gong.
I could zoom it 2, 3 and sometimes 4 times and still have a decent image. It has 3x base mag. To zoom in/out you just turn a big knob on the side of the scope...easier and quicker than finding and clicking buttons like on the Rattlers.
It has an internal rechargeable battery with up to 15 hours of run time. The biggest thing I am worried about here is the battery is non-user replaceable, since it is built into the scope.
Again, pretty impressed for a sub $2K thermal.

The other one, that I ended up getting for myself, was the Varmint TS35-384 LRF.
I swapped out the low end ATN THOR4 thermal that I had on my bolt action .222. The ATN THOR4 was less than impressive. At 200-250 yards it wouldn't pick up a coyote, when I was out a few months back, that I initially spied with my AGM TS25-384 that I was using as a scanner/monocular. It worked ok for close range (50-100ish yards), but the image was still very pixelated, but like I said, it is like their low end basic THOR4 thermal (I think they are under $1000).
The AGM Varmint is great. My dad and I both think it has a better image than the AGM TS35-640 Rattler that he has. I can zoom it once or twice (3x base mag) and still have a good image, in most instances. Zooming 4x you just get pixelated blobs. It is 12 micron resolution. The LRF (laser range finder) is ok, but can be difficult to get a good reading (there is a box on the screen you put on the target, then push a button on the side of the scope so it will send the laser out to get the distance). Depending on how steady you can hold the gun with one hand determines if you are actually on target when you push the range button on the scope. On the bench it works fine, but I don't hunt from a bench. With a steady hold, I've ranged deer to 500+ yards.
It uses 18650 rechargeable batteries with up to 4.5 hours of run time. It comes with 2 batteries and a charger.
Very happy so far with the Varmint TS35-384.
 
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I guess it depends on what you are wanting to do with it. If you are just using it for general observation, then once you get everything set on it...focus, color, etc, then it should basically be a turn it on and use it thing. You shouldn't have to fiddle with the settings and such. There are a lot of options you can set/change if needed/wanted, but not really required, if you are just using it for observation, IMO.
mostly about the button you push that makes a clicky noise inside the thing to refocus the image or whatever, and how everything is inside really poorly laid out menus (there are arrow keys, why make contrast and brightness and image style single-button 'cycle through the whole list every time' sorta menus)
dunno, just general bitch-complaints

it was certainly an impulse buy with no real reasoning behind it
 
kinda neat, while you can't see fuckall on paper targets, the holes you punch when shooting at general quadrants of the cardboard backer you can see the heat from punching the holes for a good 10sec afterwords, way neat

rang some 6" steel with it at 200, too
I'm pretty jazzed
 
I've played in the shallow end of the NV pool for a while and have a set up that kinda works. Only hunting yotes, so built around that.

Helmet:
Older PVS-14
Inforce WML White/ IR
Some little streamlight? IR thing for close up IR

Weapon:
Holosun IR laser
Luna optics IR illuminator.

The InForce is a flood LED that acts like a super headlamp. On the helmet for scanning. The Luna is wild, comes with a filter to de-rate the power. Of course you remove that first thing. I don't recall paying $400 for it, but it was a couple years ago. It has an adjustable focus. Of the course the IR laser is for aiming.

One downside I've found is both the 14 and Luna require focusing. Not a huge deal, the Luna can be so bright when focused tightly it can wash out the target. Of course the 14's are bit fuzzy if your not focused for that distance.

Snow/ rain screws with NV big time.

No magnification, so limited by my old eyeballs.

In law started with a ATN thermal, sucked big time. Now running a Super Hogster. My first thermal will be wither the Hogster or Yoter. Holy crap, game changer.

Think I can combine them, run the NV for scanning and the thermal for shooting, maybe even move the laser to a shotgun, for a close range option as well.
 
Yeah, like 50 yards tops. Im okay with pixelation…I think. this is just for home use, casual rat extermination.
I havent done more than poking around but are thermals even allowed in ca?
The few ive looked at that are rifle based flat out say they wont ship.
 
I'm a thermal fan, I've had a FLIR for years and recently sold it because I'm not going to use it for the next couple years. Fantastic unit with an external battery, with a run time of 14 hrs.
If i was to replace it today, it'd be with a Pulsar unit.

If I'd used a Pulsar first, thats what I'd have bought. Try and use them before buying.
I'm sure by the time I'm ready to buy again there will be even better choices.
 
Since this came back to the top, should update.
Picked up a sightmark wraith 4k mini for Xmas.
Caught it on a sale for $600. Pretty happy so far with it, especially for the price.
The night vision mode is similar to my older pulsar nv only scope. It needs an ir light if there isn't much moonlight. Size and weight is good
Having the day capability on it makes it not a dedicated night rig.
Thinking about adding a thermal monocular for spotting critters. They are a whole lot cheaper than the thermal scopes.
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Well after owning and selling thermals over the last few years, I decided I'm jumping in both feet. Got a good deal on a Steiner C35 clip-on a couple months ago and have been on the lookout for a WP L3 PVS-14 with ir illuminator and helmet mount.

Hunted a few times with thermal on the ar-10 and decided I'm pulling the trigger on a helmet mounted NV setup also. Been selling everything that's not nailed down here to finance it. Still got a bolt gun, ar-10, and a nightforce I'm trying to move .


Anyway, the Steiner is awesome. I think it beats the Bering super yoter
 
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