Newb Basic Front Link Info - How to ?s

[Swayzeexpress]

I used my sami close to home and only over the last 3/4 years have gone out East 3 times and SMORR x 2. Either way, last year with some of the guys here I was able to see some really nice set ups and what they can do. I mostly get stopped on uphill obstacles or have to bounce a little to keep moving on steep starts and I'd really like to slow it down more/spin less.

Would like to do a 3 link up front. I have a steel shop next door that can help with install, super good guy who wants to teach me to weld over winter too. I've read the basics on how to approach the design (on a surface level).

Winters are slow here, I have heated place in the warehouse here to work.

Where is the first place to start? Just cut everything out and start? What can I get ahead of time that I know I'll need/won't need to measure and order later?

Is linking the front only gonna make a big difference? Right now I'm 4.62s and 4:16 on 33s. Would like to get back on the 35 sxs stickies I only ran once. Axles are hybrids from ZOR in AZ and have chromo shafts now too.

Any reasons I should not do this?

These two clips from SMORR, especially the 2nd show what I mean. Hard to tell but both are on inclines and don't like bouncing around so much. Third one is from Badlands in IN last weekend. Obviously more time behind the wheel in these spots will help too.







Appreciate any input

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I didn't really see anything in those vids that made me think a front 3 link would be a huge benefit.

2nd video makes me think I'd be going to 6.4s in the tcase.

But if you're going up hill, I think short wheelbase and all your extra wieght with a tin top and exo, bouncing would more have to do with rear suspension.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

I didn't really see anything in those vids that made me think a front 3 link would be a huge benefit.

2nd video makes me think I'd be going to 6.4s in the tcase.

But if you're going up hill, I think short wheelbase and all your extra wieght with a tin top and exo, bouncing would more have to do with rear suspension.

Thanks! Gears are in the future, I really don't know much about linked setups there aren't many here. The ones I have seen really seem to pull themselves (?) Instead of ride over if that makes sense. This all started when I saw manche's ride at smorr last year. Was really impressive what he could do on inclines.

what are the logical first steps towards adjusting the rear? Stiffer or softer? All new to me lol

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Thanks! Gears are in the future, I really don't know much about linked setups there aren't many here. The ones I have seen really seem to pull themselves (?) Instead of ride over if that makes sense. This all started when I saw manche's ride at smorr last year. Was really impressive what he could do on inclines.

what are the logical first steps towards adjusting the rear? Stiffer or softer? All new to me lol

What shocks are you running?

 

[Swayzeexpress]

What shocks are you running?

Rancho adjustables with yj springs

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I'd start with better shocks, and lower gearing. Then lower it if possible.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

I'd like it lower but really like the 33s, it does pretty much everything I want. If I could make 35s comfortable if be all over that.

What would I look for/expect if I got new shocks?

 

[FleshEater]

So, from watching your Sami at SMORR, I would definitely say lower the t-case gears.

If you’re going stickies I assume you won’t be road driving. So are you opposed to cutting metal or ditching stuff to clear 35’s on a lower lift?

Mike Honcho’s Comanche did so well because of the wheelbase. The Samurai being short needs to be lower to maintain stability. You would have to link front and rear and stretch it, or just build out leaf hangers, to really see a huge difference.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

Yo! Thanks for chiming in here man

So, from watching your Sami at SMORR, I would definitely say lower the t-case gears.

Yep that is the plan now, I really thought links up front would make a difference but I've been watching a lot of videos and seeing they don't do what I thought. Nobody near me has em outside of whatever jeep puts out from the factory. Looking at 6.4, gotta see what I blew up first

If you’re going stickies I assume you won’t be road driving. So are you opposed to cutting metal or ditching stuff to clear 35’s on a lower lift?

I have 35's I used two years ago for one trip. They were awesome but broke a chromo axle in back on a up hill obstacle, in my head I blame the stickies but may have just been time. I'd like to swap out to AT's if I want to do lighter duty stuff only because the stickies are so pricey and wear out so quick.

Definitely not opposed to cutting anything - you've seen it though, I'd really like to keep it decent on the inside only because it was set up exactly how I wanted till I saw what I was missing out on lol.

Mike Honcho’s Comanche did so well because of the wheelbase. The Samurai being short needs to be lower to maintain stability. You would have to link front and rear and stretch it, or just build out leaf hangers, to really see a huge difference.

How effective is building out leaf hangers? I'd love more WB but then question the width and being so narrow - is this an issue?

Appreciate the ideas and hope everything is good

 

[FleshEater]

Yo! Thanks for chiming in here man

Yep that is the plan now, I really thought links up front would make a difference but I've been watching a lot of videos and seeing they don't do what I thought. Nobody near me has em outside of whatever jeep puts out from the factory. Looking at 6.4, gotta see what I blew up first

I have 35's I used two years ago for one trip. They were awesome but broke a chromo axle in back on a up hill obstacle, in my head I blame the stickies but may have just been time. I'd like to swap out to AT's if I want to do lighter duty stuff only because the stickies are so pricey and wear out so quick.

Definitely not opposed to cutting anything - you've seen it though, I'd really like to keep it decent on the inside only because it was set up exactly how I wanted till I saw what I was missing out on lol.

How effective is building out leaf hangers? I'd love more WB but then question the width and being so narrow - is this an issue?

Appreciate the ideas and hope everything is good

Early on in my build thread when I was going to build a Samurai out there was a bunch of good leaf spring tech. One of the options was to extend the frame to gain a couple inches.

But all yours would have to be in the front or it might look ridiculous. I was going to build more tube than body.

You could always swap Toyota axles in. You’ll gain width and strength.

This is the path that led me to a buggy, because it was always, “Yeah, but then this happens.”

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Should have just stuck with the 32 stickies

 

[Swayzeexpress]

Early on in my build thread when I was going to build a Samurai out there was a bunch of good leaf spring tech. One of the options was to extend the frame to gain a couple inches.

But all yours would have to be in the front or it might look ridiculous. I was going to build more tube than body.

You could always swap Toyota axles in. You’ll gain width and strength.

This is the path that led me to a buggy, because it was always, “Yeah, but then this happens.”

Man I was following your build and completely forgot how it started.

Those first few pages are gold to me

If I swap my yjs to spua and raise the hangers, chop what I need to, is that a good starting point? Or is it better to spua OR raise the mounts?

2big bronco
Do you have pics of what you cut up front on this one?

 

[skyhiranger]

If I swap my yjs to spua and raise the hangers, chop what I need to, is that a good starting point? Or is it better to spua OR raise the mounts?

Why not both…raise the spring hangers and SPUA?

That is how my samurai is with 34” LTBs. My fenders are cut at the top of the stock fender flares.
I run custom YJ packs with S10/Blazer leafs mixed in, to make up the lift lost with raised spring hangers.
The raised spring hangers were a game changer for not getting hung up on rocks/ ledges. I want to say I gained 4” of clearance on the rear spring hangers by raising them.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

Why not both…raise the spring hangers and SPUA?

That is how my samurai is with 34” LTBs. My fenders are cut at the top of the stock fender flares.
I run custom YJ packs with S10/Blazer leafs mixed in, to make up the lift lost with raised spring hangers.
The raised spring hangers were a game changer for not getting hung up on rocks/ ledges. I want to say I gained 4” of clearance on the rear spring hangers by raising them.

Thats good info thank you. I was wondering if doing both would be too much loss of room for tires? Maybe in thinking about it wrong. Do you have any pics of the new mounts up here?

 

[skyhiranger]

Thats good info thank you. I was wondering if doing both would be too much loss of room for tires? Maybe in thinking about it wrong. Do you have any pics of the new mounts up here?

I don't think I've posted anything on here. What I did was just cut the stock mount off the frame, shorten it up, so I could move it up and attach it to the crossmember above, then add some bracing between it and the side of the frame. Here is the "after" pic, with the YJ spring relocation brackets attached, after I moved the stock spring hangers up. This is for the rear spring hangers, obviously.
I did also do some stuff for the front (narrowed the spring spacing, frenched the spring hanger into the frame....a lot more complex than the rear).

 

[Swayzeexpress]

I don't think I've posted anything on here. What I did was just cut the stock mount off the frame, shorten it up, so I could move it up and attach it to the crossmember above, then add some bracing between it and the side of the frame. Here is the "after" pic, with the YJ spring relocation brackets attached, after I moved the stock spring hangers up. This is for the rear spring hangers, obviously.
I did also do some stuff for the front (narrowed the spring spacing, frenched the spring hanger into the frame....a lot more complex than the rear).

That's helpful, appreciate it.

For the front, what else will need to be reworked/moved? Keep the hi steer setup as is?

Just trying to stay ahead of most surprises as my time with a place to get this done is based on the temps here. I'll get more pics of what I am working with up soon too.

 

[91samurai]

I believe the lowest you can get the front without frenching the rear spring mount into the frame is with slider boxes up front. They are much shorter than a traditional shackle

 

[skyhiranger]

That's helpful, appreciate it.

For the front, what else will need to be reworked/moved? Keep the hi steer setup as is?

Just trying to stay ahead of most surprises as my time with a place to get this done is based on the temps here. I'll get more pics of what I am working with up soon too.

I don't run high steer on mine, so IDK.
Like I said, I have done a lot of work on my front axle (more than most people would), so it may not be a road you want to go down. I have...
-frenched the rear spring mounts into the frame.
-cut/frenched the spring perches into the bottom of the axle tube.
-narrowed the spring spacing on the axle (for turning clearance, since I used to run a longer pitman arm, when I was doing comps).
-moved the shackle mounts up on the frame.
-shaved the bottom of the diff.
-delrin bushings in the shackles, to keep the bushings from flexing when turning and losing steering angle.
-longer shacles.

Don't get me wrong, the whole setup works awesome...it was just a lot of time and work.

 

[Gwagensteve]

From what I can see your car is doing exactly what a SWB SPOA car with a high COG will do. Lowering the COG and adding wheelbase will make a huge difference.

As you've mentioned, you could go SPUA, which would go a long way to improving the situation, but you'll still have the heavy rearwards weight transfer, some of which is being caused by the short wheelbase, and some by how much weight you have up high (the exo.) As has been suggested, the problems you're having are not going to go away with a front three link.

Suspension height at rest has nothing to do with tyre clearance.
The car needs to be built at the lowest ride height that allows adequate compression travel for the intended use.
The car should readily settle onto the bumpstop when flexing - this makes the car stable and trustworthy on obstacles.
The bumpstops should be in the stock location or if possible even higher set than factory. Spacing bumpstops down to achieve tyre clearance is lost travel and stability.

None of these things have anything to do with what the springs are or how the axles are located, however, it's very hard to effectively impossible to get the car that low with a SPUA because there is no room to get the springs beside the chassis - they have to be underslung the chassis which means the bumpstop and spring will always be between the axle and the chassis.

it's not possible to run high steer on a car at the height I'm talking about because the drag link and tie rod will be way up through the chassis on flex. I had to notch my chassis to clear the stock drag link in my build.

I'll give you some information on my build as I think it's relevant to this thread.

My own car runs a three link front and 4 link rear with 12" travel King shocks. Springs are Calmini 3.5" Tracker rear all round. Axle to chassis clearance is exactly the same as a stock Samurai - 2" front and~3.5" rear. i.e no lift at all. I do run a 2" body lift. I did this originally for tyre clearance early on and it just sort of stayed in the car (I've owned it ~18 years) but it wouldn't really feasible to run 35's with the travel I have without the body lift - my car is street driven and retaining a stock appearance ( hood/ fenders/lights etc) is important where I live, I also want to it to look as much as possible like a Samurai and not something cut up.

When I first built my car I converted the rear to Range Rover radius arm/panhard while keeping the front leaf sprung SPUA. This was because axle wrap and bouncing were a big issue, as you are finding. I also added 6" of wheelbase at that time. It then went through a number of subsequent suspension builds, but the last iteration was to three link the front and lower the car as much as I could, whilst lightening the rear of the car as much as possible. My idea was to reduce rearward weight transfer as much as possible and get the front to generate as much traction as it could. This has worked very well and I'm extremely happy with the outcome - it's trustworthy and stable and drives very well on and off road. I run 35" Roxzillas (The car used to be on 35" Krawlers)

It's not very easy to photograph my front end because the packaging is very tight but you'll get the picture, I hope,

 

[Swayzeexpress]

From what I can see your car is doing exactly what a SWB SPOA car with a high COG will do. Lowering the COG and adding wheelbase will make a huge difference.

As you've mentioned, you could go SPUA, which would go a long way to improving the situation, but you'll still have the heavy rearwards weight transfer, some of which is being caused by the short wheelbase, and some by how much weight you have up high (the exo.) As has been suggested, the problems you're having are not going to go away with a front three link.

Suspension height at rest has nothing to do with tyre clearance.
The car needs to be built at the lowest ride height that allows adequate compression travel for the intended use.
The car should readily settle onto the bumpstop when flexing - this makes the car stable and trustworthy on obstacles.
The bumpstops should be in the stock location or if possible even higher set than factory. Spacing bumpstops down to achieve tyre clearance is lost travel and stability.

None of these things have anything to do with what the springs are or how the axles are located, however, it's very hard to effectively impossible to get the car that low with a SPUA because there is no room to get the springs beside the chassis - they have to be underslung the chassis which means the bumpstop and spring will always be between the axle and the chassis.

it's not possible to run high steer on a car at the height I'm talking about because the drag link and tie rod will be way up through the chassis on flex. I had to notch my chassis to clear the stock drag link in my build.

I'll give you some information on my build as I think it's relevant to this thread.

My own car runs a three link front and 4 link rear with 12" travel King shocks. Springs are Calmini 3.5" Tracker rear all round. Axle to chassis clearance is exactly the same as a stock Samurai - 2" front and~3.5" rear. i.e no lift at all. I do run a 2" body lift. I did this originally for tyre clearance early on and it just sort of stayed in the car (I've owned it ~18 years) but it wouldn't really feasible to run 35's with the travel I have without the body lift - my car is street driven and retaining a stock appearance ( hood/ fenders/lights etc) is important where I live, I also want to it to look as much as possible like a Samurai and not something cut up.

When I first built my car I converted the rear to Range Rover radius arm/panhard while keeping the front leaf sprung SPUA. This was because axle wrap and bouncing were a big issue, as you are finding. I also added 6" of wheelbase at that time. It then went through a number of subsequent suspension builds, but the last iteration was to three link the front and lower the car as much as I could, whilst lightening the rear of the car as much as possible. My idea was to reduce rearward weight transfer as much as possible and get the front to generate as much traction as it could. This has worked very well and I'm extremely happy with the outcome - it's trustworthy and stable and drives very well on and off road. I run 35" Roxzillas (The car used to be on 35" Krawlers)

It's not very easy to photograph my front end because the packaging is very tight but you'll get the picture, I hope,

This is good info I have to different into deeper, quoting so I dont forget. I'm at a wedding till Monday night but will get pics up, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the best first steps when you see what I'm working with

 

[YotaAtieToo]

How much effort do you want to put into it?

Making these sami's sit low with big tires isn't easy. Mine is spua f&r and will rub 32s almost everywhere. There is some clearance to be had in the rear by chopping the tub to at least match the inner fender. The front gets a little more tricky if you want to keep the front clip.

The rear gets tough if you want to extend the WB, gas tank is in the way, move that and you can only go back a few inches before the tailgate is in the way.

As GW said, bump stops can be a big help, but there can be down sides to limiting travel.

Also fighting an uphill battle with the tin top and exo, vs a soft top Sami.

I'd start with going to spua or moving the mounts up. Doing both may be too much.

 

[91samurai]

How much effort do you want to put into it?

Making these sami's sit low with big tires isn't easy. Mine is spua f&r and will rub 32s almost everywhere. There is some clearance to be had in the rear by chopping the tub to at least match the inner fender. The front gets a little more tricky if you want to keep the front clip.

The rear gets tough if you want to extend the WB, gas tank is in the way, move that and you can only go back a few inches before the tailgate is in the way.

As GW said, bump stops can be a big help, but there can be down sides to limiting travel.

Also fighting an uphill battle with the tin top and exo, vs a soft top Sami.

I'd start with going to spua or moving the mounts up. Doing both may be too much.

I personally went from a top heavy spoa on yjs to lowered and linked in the front. I don’t care how much work it was. It’s the best mod ever for one of these.

Before

After

I kept it subtle by remounting the factory flares higher. I also moved them for my stretch

 

[Gwagensteve]

Making these sami's sit low with big tires isn't easy. Mine is spua f&r and will rub 32s almost everywhere. There is some clearance to be had in the rear by chopping the tub to at least match the inner fender. The front gets a little more tricky if you want to keep the front clip.

I sort of disagree, compared with how much work a well sorted SPOA is, for example. I helped build the car below with the owner in 2010. It ran no body or suspension lift, although it did run RUF with derated springs. Front springs were moved under the chassis like an SJ40/SJ50 rather than outboard like the SJ70 (samurai). Mostly otherwise it was just tubbing out the rear and removing the inner guards. The whole car including a TH180 swap, power steer, RUF etc was all done over about 6 weekends on and off.

Despite what the internet believes it had full suspension travel, stock bumpstop location, and full steering lock.

There is a little trick we employ to gain front tire clearance on our builds though - we pinch the nose. basically, narrow the slam panel and facia by 3.5" - this narrows the front fenders to match the taper of the stock hood. This gains us a LOT of clearance around the stock headlight and allows us to keep a stock appearing vehicle with enough room for a 35" tire. With complete inner guards I admit this is substantial work, although in the case of "Jinxy" the hardtop below the owner just deleted the inner guards to speed the process.

Here are two cars with pinched noses - Jinxy in the rear and another car I completed around the same time in the front. The front car had an ARB bull bar narrowed to suit. This car has now been built like this for 1nearly 18 years and still performs well. It now runs 35" KR2's. These cars were before I started working with link suspension.

Here is a photo of my pinch in process 5 years ago. The front bar is stock width and you can see where I notched it for tyre clearance as I was cycling the suspension. As my car is an SJ410, it has an all steel facia which makes narrowing harder as it's necessary to removed two slats and cut around the hood latch. On the SJ50/70 the ends of the slam panel/facia can just be trimmed down. you can also see how far the inner guards come forward into the headlight bucket. There is no way the guard cutout could be this big with the headlights in place at the stock width.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I sort of disagree, compared with how much work a well sorted SPOA is, for example. I helped build the car below with the owner in 2010. It ran no body or suspension lift, although it did run RUF with derated springs. Front springs were moved under the chassis like an SJ40/SJ50 rather than outboard like the SJ70 (samurai). Mostly otherwise it was just tubbing out the rear and removing the inner guards. The whole car including a TH180 swap, power steer, RUF etc was all done over about 6 weekends on and off.

I'm not advocating spoa here.

I've ran bald 36 iroks for snow (maybe the same as true 35s?) and they rub like crazy in the back with spua YJ's.

Obviously you guys have it down, but I'd still say it's a decent amount of work to make the tires clear.

Despite what the internet believes it had full suspension travel, stock bumpstop location, and full steering lock.

Full stock travel? So like 4"?

There is a little trick we employ to gain front tire clearance on our builds though - we pinch the nose. basically, narrow the slam panel and facia by 3.5" - this narrows the front fenders to match the taper of the stock hood. This gains us a LOT of clearance around the stock headlight and allows us to keep a stock appearing vehicle with enough room for a 35" tire. With complete inner guards I admit this is substantial work, although in the case of "Jinxy" the hardtop below the owner just deleted the inner guards to speed the process

That's awesome. Basically just match the hood? I never thought it would be that much of a difference, but I'm happy to hear it helps with tire clearance. I'll probably steal that idea when I redo my front end.

Here are two cars with pinched noses - Jinxy in the rear and another car I completed around the same time in the front. The front car had an ARB bull bar narrowed to suit. This car has now been built like this for 1nearly 18 years and still performs well. It now runs 35" KR2's. These cars were before I started working with link suspension.

Here is a photo of my pinch in process 5 years ago. The front bar is stock width and you can see where I notched it for tyre clearance as I was cycling the suspension. As my car is an SJ410, it has an all steel facia which makes narrowing harder as it's necessary to removed two slats and cut around the hood latch. On the SJ50/70 the ends of the slam panel/facia can just be trimmed down. you can also see how far the inner guards come forward into the headlight bucket. There is no way the guard cutout could be this big with the headlights in place at the stock width.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

Didn't see all these till now

How much effort do you want to put into it?

Making these sami's sit low with big tires isn't easy. Mine is spua f&r and will rub 32s almost everywhere. There is some clearance to be had in the rear by chopping the tub to at least match the inner fender. The front gets a little more tricky if you want to keep the front clip.

The rear gets tough if you want to extend the WB, gas tank is in the way, move that and you can only go back a few inches before the tailgate is in the way.

As GW said, bump stops can be a big help, but there can be down sides to limiting travel.

Also fighting an uphill battle with the tin top and exo, vs a soft top Sami.

I'd start with going to spua or moving the mounts up. Doing both may be too much.

Minimal effort now without boxing myself in later. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how the changes affect everything if I want to go deeper later

How hacked up in front? I don't mind cutting, I'd really like to avoid messing with the cage but don't see that being an issue.

I gotta measure to be sure, I think I added 3"(?) up front. Most of the suspension stuff was 2016-17

Is going SPUA as simple as relocating the springs? If so that +gears would be my first step

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Didn't see all these till now


Minimal effort now without boxing myself in later. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how the changes affect everything if I want to go deeper later

How hacked up in front? I don't mind cutting, I'd really like to avoid messing with the cage but don't see that being an issue.

I gotta measure to be sure, I think I added 3"(?) up front. Most of the suspension stuff was 2016-17

Is going SPUA as simple as relocating the springs? If so that +gears would be my first step

Hard to say, with out knowing your rig. obviously your tire will travel ~4" further up on compression if you don't have bump stops. But I'd say, do bump stops.

Just like any suspension mods, need to look at brakes, steering and driveshafts. But usually going down is much easier than going up.

 

[Swayzeexpress]

Hard to say, with out knowing your rig. obviously your tire will travel ~4" further up on compression if you don't have bump stops. But I'd say, do bump stops.

Just like any suspension mods, need to look at brakes, steering and driveshafts. But usually going down is much easier than going up.

Here's some pics, wb is just under 89"

Front

In back

 

[bad zuki]

Honestly. What do you want do to with it??? Do you want to drive it on the road or do you want to keep up with guys on 43 Stickies?
You are at the crossroads most sami owners are at. Make it a buggy, or modify the hell out of it. Personally, I'd tell you to go to toyota axles if you plan on keeping the 35's, HOWEVER, when you keep it narrow on sami axles, it really does shine in the rocks that wider buggies can't go. Catch 22 and all. The smart move is to gear it lower, But Personally, Id rather spend that money on toyota axles. That's just me.

Here is a Sami I helped build Spring under with 37's. It has alot of tricks sky has mentioned done to it. I can't share suspension pics though. We've won alot of comps with this rig and it does wonders. If I built another Small trail buggy, I would do it similar to this, because most of the parks around here aren't miles away from the parking area. A Tight narrow rig works well around us. Twinkrawler529 on social media.

I kept it subtle by remounting the factory flares higher. I also moved them for my stretch

I like that. Next time you go to uwharrie, shoot me a pm.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Man those leafs are so flat and long, I'd be a little worried that spua will suck.

Your high steer most likely won't work either. Might get away with flipping the ends under the arm?

 

[FleshEater]

Man those leafs are so flat and long, I'd be a little worried that spua will suck.

Your high steer most likely won't work either. Might get away with flipping the ends under the arm?

Well sounds like it’s time for Toyotas and links.