New load center panel install question...

Mr.Ratbastard

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I am replacing my 100A panel with a new 100A panel. The wiring is a mess an there are a lot of unused old wiring hanging out in thete. I pulled most of the unused stuff out recently and after a couple ceilings came down after the hurricane a wiring mess was expised. It's time to clean some of it up. The biggest problem is junction boxes all over the place and things that don't belong together on the same circuits.
The question is this, there is a panel just below the meter shown here:

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I see the neutral bus bar is connected to ground, there is the ground going to a grounding rod and a ground wire going inside to the panel along with (2) 120v wires. My understaing is the inside panel should have the grounds and neutrals seperate but in the old panel they appear to be together. So can I put both on the same bars or no?
On a side note, the breaker on the right is new and it started coming out on it's own. Hard as hell to plug back in?
Old panel, the new panel has a main breaker:

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you're supposed to separate the ground and neutral after the service entrance

this needs in an extra conductor and my county doesn't do any of that electrical inspection stuff so I don't
you do you
 
Why not upgrade to 200A if you're replacing the box?

Then I would have to run bigger wire from outside into the house. I don't think it's needed but I could be wrong. There isn't anything changing load wise.
 
On a side note, the breaker on the right is new and it started coming out on it's own. Hard as hell to plug back in?
Old panel, the new panel has a main breaker:

Looks like an Eaton/Cutler-Hammer breaker. They're shit. They don't hold onto the buss bar tight enough. I'd pull the breaker and inspect the backside. It may be burned a bit, or the two bits of metal that are supposed to clip onto the buss are bend/sideways and that's what's stopping you from pushing it back on. Make sure the MAIN is off while you're doing this so the buss is dead.

I recently put a sub panel in a friend's new construction. Eaton panel. The 100 amp breaker I installed on the main panel to feed the sub barely holds on to the buss.

Literally turning off the breaker unseats it from the buss. It's fucking embarrassing telling a homeowner to make sure the breaker stays pushed tight on the buss. It's also a fucking fire hazard since poor connections are literally what arc welding is.

Buy bolt-on breakers, or at least Square-D if you want better stuff.
 
Then I would have to run bigger wire from outside into the house. I don't think it's needed but I could be wrong. There isn't anything changing load wise.

How long of a run is it? I had one house upgraded but the seller footed the bill for a new panel since there were double taps in the fuse box. The electric company covered the new line from the pole to the meter.
 
How long of a run is it? I had one house upgraded but the seller footed the bill for a new panel since there were double taps in the fuse box. The electric company covered the new line from the pole to the meter.

It's not long but it may be difficult to pull. I have over 80k damage to deal with, flakey contractors and helping my kid move 1/2 across the country, Christmas obligations etc. I know this would be the time to do it but I don't see where additional loads would come from right now or in the near future. Upgrading it later would be preferred at this point in time.
 
After the first panel, ground and neutral are supposed to be separate.
That that would mean that you'll need to run a new wire from the outside to the inside from the looks of it.
The thought being that if something happens to the neutral between the first box and the second one you would then have any current that should be flowing on the neutral going to the metal case of any grounded appliance.

Aaron Z
 
After the first panel, ground and neutral are supposed to be separate.
That that would mean that you'll need to run a new wire from the outside to the inside from the looks of it.
The thought being that if something happens to the neutral between the first box and the second one you would then have any current that should be flowing on the neutral going to the metal case of any grounded appliance.

Aaron Z

Is it wired wrong or is this considered ok since there is no main breaker inside? Is this an old way of doing it or just wrong? The new panel has the grounds and neutrals combined so I would need to add a neutral bus bar and run a new wire to correct the situation correct?
 
That was an old way of wiring but new / repair installations need to follow current codes

10-4 I just want to understand what's going on as much as possible.
It looks virtually impossible to run a new wire alongside the main wire. I will have to get creative to run a new neutral. What gauge wire does it need to be? It will be approx 20-25' long.
 
10-4 I just want to understand what's going on as much as possible.
It looks virtually impossible to run a new wire alongside the main wire. I will have to get creative to run a new neutral. What gauge wire does it need to be? It will be approx 20-25' long.
You will have to replace the wire, they frown on running them separately.
If running all aluminum it would probbaly be 2/2/2/4
Do you have a way that you could run conduit on the outside of the house? Run 2" PVC from the outside panel into the inside one?

Aaron Z
 
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I will have to look more into running a new wire.

This may end up being a simple panel swap wired as is or skipping it all together.
 
If the meter goes straight into that small exterior panel, you dont have a "main breaker". In certain circumstances this is allowed such as yours where it appears you can shut everything off by hitting 2 breakers.

The outside panel looks to me like a 100 amp square d homeline which isnt a bad panel. Not the way i would have done it but it works i guess. Those breakers can be stiff to fully seat on the buss which is what you want. It might require a tap from the rubber handle of your hammer to go on all the way. A loose breaker is a fire hazard. You also want to make sure the way those wires are bent that they're not trying to pull the breaker loose.

But you need to check the sticker on that panel and verify the brand, but the 100amp breaker itself is definitely a square d homeline breaker. Not all 1" dimension breakers interchange into other brand panels. Some will not fit.

That interior sub panel is square d QO which is typically a very good panel. I wouldnt bother replacing it unless you need more spaces or the buss bar is damaged.

You should however rewire the feeder to that sub panel with a seperate neutral and ground to make it correct. Clean up all the branch circuit wiring, and add a seperate ground bar. Also cut some sheet metal and tek screw them in to cover all those holes in the panel.

As for replacing the feeder, you could use an SE cable like they did the first time, or run pvc conduit and pull individual wires. I would've said run 2" conduit but you will have a hard time fitting it into that small panel outside. Sleeve some SE in pvc conduit down into the crawl space or the attic.

I think 2-2-2-4 aluminum would cover 100 amps but id have to check to make sure.
 
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The outside panel with the square d breaker has been here since we bought the house and it does shut everything off inside the house. The breaker on the right was just added for a new hvac outside unit. I tapped it back in place last night, I will check it today to make sure it's sitting right.
The main goal was to clean up the wiring. Lose the unused stuff and run new wires through the house without junction boxes everywhere. I will see if I can figure out how to run a new feeder wire. I may be able to go up into the side of the wall into the ceiling cavity.

Can it just go through the wall?
 
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The outside panel with the square d breaker has been here since we bought the house and it does shut everything off inside the house. The breaker on the right was just added for a new hvac outside unit. I tapped it back in place last night, I will check it today to make sure it's sitting right.
The main goal was to clean up the wiring. Lose the unused stuff and run new wires through the house without junction boxes everywhere. I will see if I can figure out how to run a new feeder wire. I may be able to go up into the side of the wall into the ceiling cavity.

Can it just go through the wall?

Yes you can go through the wall up into the attic/crawlspace.

I thought you meant the 100amp breaker was loose. Replace that hvac breaker with a square d homeline breaker that will fit correctly before you burn up that panel.
 
Yes you can go through the wall up into the attic/crawlspace.

I thought you meant the 100amp breaker was loose. Replace that hvac breaker with a square d homeline breaker that will fit correctly before you burn up that panel.

Thanks for the information. The breaker seams to be staying in place right now but I will grab a square d and put it in there. I am leaning towards returning the new box and just cleaning this one up, replacing a few breakers etc.
 
Thanks for the information. The breaker seams to be staying in place right now but I will grab a square d and put it in there. I am leaning towards returning the new box and just cleaning this one up, replacing a few breakers etc.

Before you take it back shut off that panel outside and pull off all the breakers inside a few at a time. Check the condition of the buss bars and the jaws on the breakers to make sure they arent melted or have pitting behind there.

The QO is a good panel it's been in production since the '50s. It's rare, but have seen them burnt up. Mostly due to people in there messing around over the years and leaving stuff loose. When you put the breakers back in they have to hook into the rail going down the side first before you can stab it onto the buss or it will loosen up.

It's a much better panel than a lot of others. The breakers fit in tight and they will actually trip when overloaded. :laughing:
 
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