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New Equipment Purchase - Looking for Feedback?

ihpartsjeff

ihpartsjeff

IH Expert Guy
Joined
May 19, 2020
Member Number
172
Messages
108
Loc
Grass Valley, CA
Looking to upgrade into some new equipment for our shop, some of which we have not had before. Below are the tools we are looking to purchase and who we might purchase them from. Would love some feedback from those who have had experience using the particular brands we are looking at or have a different recommendation. Hate to spend the money and then not be happy with our purchase which has happened before.

Waterjet - Looking at a Flow Mach 100 3 Axis - Would be a new piece of equipment to our shop. They have local representatives who so far have been a pleasure to deal with. Looking to bring the manufacturing of our steel and aluminum parts in house. Currently we use nothing more than 1/2" thick material in any of our current product line. Tomorrow we get to see a live presentation of one in action.

Ironworker - Looking at either a Scotchman or Piranha in the 50-60 ton flavor(haven't decided yet). Currently have a Baileigh SW-443 and hate it. Made in Taiwan, pain in the ass to shear, pain in the ass to punch a hole. New machine would ideally punch, shear and bend. Can't decide between the two brands as both are made in the USA and both seem to have very similar specs.

Production Tubing Bender - Looking at a Baileigh RDB-325. Currently have one of the first ProTools Super Bender and it is god awful slow but has treated us well for the many years we have had it. I am hesitant to purchase another item from Baileigh, as we have not been impressed with the other Baileigh tools in the shop (drill press, belt sander and Ironworker), but this one is made in the USA, where the other Baileigh tools we have are Taiwan/China crap. Looking to mostly bend tubing for cages, rollbars, sliders etc up to at least 2" diameter but wouldn't mind more for future projects. Any other brand we should be looking at?

Lathe - Have only looked at some local auctions. Trying to find something used with tooling but would go new. Looking mostly to make tierod tubes and an occasional driveshaft.

Mill - Have only looked at some local auctions. Trying to find something used with tooling but would go new. Looking mostly to make random parts at this time.

Appreciate any feedback you might have. Feel free to ask me any questions that would help with the decision as I didn't give a whole lot of info on the lathe and mill as those are my personal weak points when it comes to knowledge.

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Why waterjet? If your cutting non metals I understand, but a laser is 10x the production machine. I'd take a good cnc plasma over a waterjet for production metal parts.

out or the two ironworker brands listed, I think I like piranha better. I've got a scotchman and it's ok but I like my friends piranha better. Both are nothing compared to my 2 1/2 Buffalo though.

Check out hgr industrial for used stuff. I prefer a good used lathe over new chicom.
 
No experience with CNC cutting stuff, but why do you only want 3 axis?

I would imagine a 5 axis capability wouldn't add much to the price of the whole machine.
 
I'd say no to the waterjet unless your parts demanded them. The per hour run time of those is very high, and they make a mess. You'll be buying garnet by the pallet load. At least find out the IPM the machine will cut your parts at.

Look into Hi-def plasma if you can't swing a laser.

On the Ironworker, I'd go Piranha over the Scotchman by a wide margin. But consider a Geka. Nice gaging tables on those and they're very well made.

I have some Baileigh tools (Bead roller, Shrinker/Stretcher and English Wheel). I see Baileigh as a marketing company with good customer service for Chinese sourced stuff. As you mention, they do sell some US and euro stuff and that can be quality.

I'm not a machinist but I have an old lathe...but my reading says buy a cnc lathe as they are very easy to learn. I see a lathe as a way to get out of a jam in my shop...with the exception of threading the ends of some long rods I've never done a paying job on it.

Good luck
 
Dethmachinefab said:
Why waterjet? If your cutting non metals I understand, but a laser is 10x the production machine. I'd take a good cnc plasma over a waterjet for production metal parts.

out or the two ironworker brands listed, I think I like piranha better. I've got a scotchman and it's ok but I like my friends piranha better. Both are nothing compared to my 2 1/2 Buffalo though.

Check out hgr industrial for used stuff. I prefer a good used lathe over new chicom.
Click to expand...

We would like the ability to cut aluminum, as well as get a part out of the machine that does not require additional finish work.

Leaning Piranha as well, but not familiar with Buffalo brand. I'll definitely check them out.

Thanks for the link to HGR.
 
Muckin_Slusher said:
No experience with CNC cutting stuff, but why do you only want 3 axis?

I would imagine a 5 axis capability wouldn't add much to the price of the whole machine.
Click to expand...

I guess in the waterjet world the 5 axis is much more expensive. Already looking at $150k for the Flow system with a 5' x 10'.
 
jamscal said:
I'd say no to the waterjet unless your parts demanded them. The per hour run time of those is very high, and they make a mess. You'll be buying garnet by the pallet load. At least find out the IPM the machine will cut your parts at.

Look into Hi-def plasma if you can't swing a laser.

On the Ironworker, I'd go Piranha over the Scotchman by a wide margin. But consider a Geka. Nice gaging tables on those and they're very well made.

I have some Baileigh tools (Bead roller, Shrinker/Stretcher and English Wheel). I see Baileigh as a marketing company with good customer service for Chinese sourced stuff. As you mention, they do sell some US and euro stuff and that can be quality.

I'm not a machinist but I have an old lathe...but my reading says buy a cnc lathe as they are very easy to learn. I see a lathe as a way to get out of a jam in my shop...with the exception of threading the ends of some long rods I've never done a paying job on it.

Good luck
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. Looking to cut down on finish time after the cut hence why we are leaning waterjet. Also want the ability to cut aluminum. Am aware of the need for garnet. Will definitely look into IPM when considering the purchase. Going to look at a machine in action later today so hoping to see how it operates, how messy, and be able to ask the equipment owner his thoughts.

Was not aware of Geka. Will definitely check them out.
 
The buffalo ironworker I mentioned is an old school mechanical machine. Probably not suited for your business, and employees. ( Big, fast, dangerous)
You will be happy with both piraranna or geka.

I still think a laser is what you need. Edge work post laser or waterjet should only be breaking the sharp 90° corner. Are you only making one offs or prototypes? If you do any production metal cutting waterjet is not the machine. If 150k is budget, plasma is the best choice.
 
ihpartsjeff said:
We would like the ability to cut aluminum, as well as get a part out of the machine that does not require additional finish work.

Leaning Piranha as well, but not familiar with Buffalo brand. I'll definitely check them out.

Thanks for the link to HGR.
Click to expand...

I am able to take plasma cut edges and tig weld them with only brushing them off with a stainless steel brush....
 
I bought a Wardjet E1530 a year and a half ago. We cut plate steel up to 2-1/2 inches, You will go through a lot of water that needs to be very clean, then down the drain. Garnet is $.25 per pound, and you'll use over a pound a minute, that needs disposed of. Then there are orifices, mixing chambers, nozzles, seals and on and on that wear out. Waterjet is an awesome process, but I think your cost over time is going to be better with laser, assuming you have the volume to justify the purchase.
 
Dethmachinefab said:
Here's a Leblond.

https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/Machine-Tools/Used-Leblond-Leblond-Lathe/01210070001/
Click to expand...

damn, if i was closer id be picking up a press brake. i could spend alot of money there.

to the op; unless you are only doing aluminum you will hate water jet.
my brother runs a robotic arm waterjet for his granite shop and i have plasma for my metal shop. from time to time i have him cut stainless for me .125 and thinner. and it is painfully slow. i cut up to 1" on the plasma table faster. i think plasma gets a bit of a bad name from the amount of operators that dont know what they are doing and the fact there are so many more of them because they are cheaper.

good plasma cuts dont need much if any touch up. and the resoning of not wanting to clean parts is a bit comical. spend $125k more to not clean parts, but on top of the extra money you have a much slower, more expensive to operate, more maintenace and up keep, power supply, water jet mess, consumables/ wear parts, potential for extended down times, etc etc. even for cutting granite the water jet is only used to finish cuting where the diamond saw cant. the whole shop is wet all the time, but thats a granite shop. a metal shop would require the table to be in an enclosure i would think, depending on where you are.
 
We own 2 cnc plasmas. My little brother sells the shit out of plasma cut trinkets. It’s cheaper for him to hire the big laser shops to cut them out for him. The only reason is they have such the purchasing power from the mills that they can buy and cut the steel for the same price we can buy the steel. You should look at outsourcing.

Stay away from a water jet!!!’ The salesman will tell you what you want to hear. That is Unless you are cutting 2” steel or need to cut plastic glass or some other weird material. Between the consumables, maintenance and running costs (40hp motor running) and the insanely slow cutting speeds your gonna regret the purchase. Another buddy owns a water jet shop and they have a tough time keeping remotely competitive in the thin steel and al market.
 
Appreciate all the feedback thus far. We did go look at a Flow 200 in action on Friday, talked with the shop owner, salesman, etc. We are still on the fence so appreciate all the advice.
 
on the lathe, getting something with a big thrubore is nice, if you can swing enough of one to be able to do axle tubes would be sweet. I think a lathe is more useful in automotive than a mill, personally. CNC or not is maybe a push on price vs time.

3 axis mill is handy, but a CNC mill is more handy for doing radius' and details and such without nearly as much setup as a manual mill.

also a waterjet seems like an odd choice over a similar sized plasma for 2d stuff. waterjet takes up way more shop space and is way more mess and consumables. proper speeds and amps will leave you stuff that can go right out of the plasma and right into weld.

deep throat band saw and a nice combo sander make for quick and easy 2d shaping of aluminum
 
Provience said:
on the lathe, getting something with a big thrubore is nice, if you can swing enough of one to be able to do axle tubes would be sweet. I think a lathe is more useful in automotive than a mill, personally. CNC or not is maybe a push on price vs time.

3 axis mill is handy, but a CNC mill is more handy for doing radius' and details and such without nearly as much setup as a manual mill.

also a waterjet seems like an odd choice over a similar sized plasma for 2d stuff. waterjet takes up way more shop space and is way more mess and consumables. proper speeds and amps will leave you stuff that can go right out of the plasma and right into weld.

deep throat band saw and a nice combo sander make for quick and easy 2d shaping of aluminum
Click to expand...

Any lathe with a through bore big enough to do axle tubes is going to be big enough to work with the axle tubes out front.

A milling machine is far more useful for the kind of work we do. For everything that requires turning that's inconveniently long for a rotary table there's ten stupid brackets that need slots, precise hole patterns and other specialty features that are easily done with a mill and difficult without one.

I agree with everyone else saying a waterjet is a stupid idea for automotive and general fab work.
 
Thought I would update this thread and ask for some more feedback. Been taking our time making decisions on purchases so that we make sure we make the best decision. So far tool wise we have purchased a Baileigh RD-250 programmable tubing bender with rotary table. We just started playing with it and so far are quite pleased.
BaileighRD-250.jpg

BaileighRD-250-1.jpg


Waterjet wise we decided to back off on that as we could not justify the cost at $150k plus. Been looking at plasma tables and have settled on a Torchmate X with 125amp air plasma which is less than half of what the waterjet would have cost. One reason why Torchmate is that the factory isn't far from us so customer support should be good?? Plus they are owned by Lincoln. Anyone out there have any feedback to offer before we officially pull the trigger on one?
Table we are looking at buying.
Torchmate-X.jpg
 
ihpartsjeff said:
We would like the ability to cut aluminum, as well as get a part out of the machine that does not require additional finish work.

Leaning Piranha as well, but not familiar with Buffalo brand. I'll definitely check them out.

Thanks for the link to HGR.
Click to expand...

I have a good bit of WJ experience, I'm a fan of OMAX machines. Though my experience is with the large machines, 60120 and up.
They have great customer support and the machines work well ini heavy production environments.
Cutting times depend on what quality of cut you need and thickness of material. Cutting 6" 304, yeh, its gonna take a bit. .500 6160 ? Easy. If its a long cut, run it over night.
The 4th Axis is cool but unless its making you money daily its not worth the coin.

Another vote for the Piranha

EDIT: Saw your update, lol
Carry on.
 
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