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YotaAtieToo said:
With a 2:1 portal and 5.29+ r&p, I figured they'd be the last ones to need it :laughing:
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3 speeds though.... I'll be running 4.11s or numerically lower....(granted a lot of guys are running 4.88s with the 1.92:1 Hummer portals)....but I can choose between a 49:1 low and 106:1 and still have 2 additional gears in the trans to go higher if needed. It's just about options.
 
Sean said:
3 speeds though.... I'll be running 4.11s or numerically lower....(granted a lot of guys are running 4.88s with the 1.92:1 Hummer portals)....but I can choose between a 49:1 low and 106:1 and still have 2 additional gears in the trans to go higher if needed. It's just about options.
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When you have a ton of super low gearing in the transfer case(s) and then try and pair that with high gearing in the axles so you don't have a bunch of useless "slow and slower" gears you start to wind up having transfer case and driveshaft problems. Sure, you can always add more beef but if your engine doesn't mind singing at the top end it's simpler cheaper and lighter to have deeper gears in the axles.


Having an entire transfer case range where your top end speed is under 5mph useful nor is being able to cruise at 1400rpm at 140mph useful.
 
I think an offset t-case with independent output control (dig) would be awesome, and if there was one for similar price to an atlas, I think every buggy guy with fabricated housing axles or rear steer would want one.

fab drag axles because offsetting the diff is just as easy as center and you get the diff closer to the tire and when the tire goes up,so does the diff.

Rear steer guys either use fabricated axles or front junkyard axles. If your making rear steer, might as well make your front and rear inner shafts the same length- and if your axle is from a Ford, it's already offset.
 
arse_sidewards said:
When you have a ton of super low gearing in the transfer case(s) and then try and pair that with high gearing in the axles so you don't have a bunch of useless "slow and slower" gears you start to wind up having transfer case and driveshaft problems. Sure, you can always add more beef but if your engine doesn't mind singing at the top end it's simpler cheaper and lighter to have deeper gears in the axles.


Having an entire transfer case range where your top end speed is under 5mph useful nor is being able to cruise at 1400rpm at 140mph useful.
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I don't disagree with you.....but in my case (only speaking for myself, my builds and my uses)...the tcase I have should be more than strong enough, I'm not in ultra4, and having 3 speeds in the case means that I may have 3 gears (when coupled with the trans) that are all really slow in that lowest gear....but for my style of wheeling when I need that low a gear, it's useful to me even though I may not end up using it all that much/often.

I have one buggy currently that's a Toyota 4 banger, W56C with dual cases (the rear one's an Atlas 5:1)....with 5.86s in the diffs. I NEVER use 1st gear double low anymore as I've found that if I bind a tire for a millisecond, I snap even 4340 axles at 265:1. 2nd gear in the trans is fine though....I'll still conk the engine before breaking anything if I'm really bound up.

Further, using a 4.56 or 4.88 wouldn't be that much different than 4.11s.....118:1 and 126:1 crawl ratios with either.
 
Sean said:
3 speeds though.... I'll be running 4.11s or numerically lower....(granted a lot of guys are running 4.88s with the 1.92:1 Hummer portals)....but I can choose between a 49:1 low and 106:1 and still have 2 additional gears in the trans to go higher if needed. It's just about options.
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What's your planned top speed? Are you trying to do AZ and hammers type wheeling where being able to cruise at 45 mph not on the Rev limiter is important?

I figured with a portal buggy, part of the appeal is super deep over all axle gearing to take stress off driveshafts and tcase parts, but also reduced chassis twist.

I'd spend some time with a gearing calculator for sure before buying any gearing.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
What's your planned top speed? Are you trying to do AZ and hammers type wheeling where being able to cruise at 45 mph not on the Rev limiter is important?

I figured with a portal buggy, part of the appeal is super deep over all axle gearing to take stress off driveshafts and tcase parts, but also reduced chassis twist.

I'd spend some time with a gearing calculator for sure before buying any gearing.
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Probably 55-60 max....

So guys running the same sort of buggy (minus the 3 speed case) are running 4.88s and 5.29 axle gears, 1.91 portal reduction and 0.7 overdrives in 700r4s. So 6.5 &7.1 final drive in high range vs. 7.8 in my setup without OD and 4.11s or 6.6 with 3.5s or 5.7 with 3.0s in the diffs.

Gear Ratio Calculator <-Link for anyone else needing to do some calculations.


But you're definitely giving me something to think about and I appreciate it. The 4.88s and 4.56s are going to be too low....in that I'd be at 9.3 and 8.6 respectively as final drive ratios.

The only real way I'm getting around this high rpm at speed issue due to the portal reduction is to go to some sort of overdrive trans though.....AFAICT (unless I did go something like 3.0:1 for the ring and pinions).

Question: with the 1.91 gearing reduction at the portal and the 3.0 gears in the diffs, I'm still at 5.73:1 in terms of combined ratio.....wouldn't that still take stress of the driveline and tcase regardless? If anything, the 3.0 gears would put more stress on the portal gears/axle shafts than a 4.11 would, right?

Maybe what this really boils down to is I should be looking at 4L80es rather than a TH400, but the extra 50+ lbs and 4" longer length (from what I can tell) as well as computer controlled are additional marks against it.
 
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like i said in the other thread...

Everything for a D300 already exists, quit trying to reinvent the wheel with custom cases/forks/shifters and act like you did something.

Make a 356-T6(atlas) cast aluminum casting of the original D300 case. add some material where its needed, sell for $1000.
 
Sean said:
Probably 55-60 max....

So guys running the same sort of buggy (minus the 3 speed case) are running 4.88s and 5.29 axle gears, 1.91 portal reduction and 0.7 overdrives in 700r4s. So 6.5 &7.1 final drive in high range vs. 7.8 in my setup without OD and 4.11s or 6.6 with 3.5s or 5.7 with 3.0s in the diffs.

Gear Ratio Calculator <-Link for anyone else needing to do some calculations.


But you're definitely giving me something to think about and I appreciate it. The 4.88s and 4.56s are going to be too low....in that I'd be at 8.6 and 9.3 respectively as final drive ratios.

The only real way I'm getting around this high rpm at speed issue due to the portal reduction is to go to some sort of overdrive trans though.....AFAICT (unless I did go something like 3.0:1 for the ring and pinions).

Question: with the 1.91 gearing reduction at the portal and the 3.0 gears in the diffs, I'm still at 5.73:1 in terms of combined ratio.....wouldn't that still take stress of the driveline and tcase regardless? If anything, the 3.0 gears would put more stress on the portal gears/axle shafts than a 4.11 would, right?

Maybe what this really boils down to is I should be looking at 4L80es rather than a TH400, but the extra 50+ lbs and 4" longer length (from what I can tell) as well as computer controlled are additional marks against it.
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Speed calculator says

1:1 high gear

5.29 diffs

1.92 portals

40" tires


64.4 mph at 5500 rpm and 41 mph at 3500 rpm

Up to you how low of a crawl ratio you want. 3:1 tcase only gets about 75:1.
 
TRINDU said:
like i said in the other thread...

Everything for a D300 already exists, quit trying to reinvent the wheel with custom cases/forks/shifters and act like you did something.

Make a 356-T6(atlas) cast aluminum casting of the original D300 case. add some material where its needed, sell for $1000.
Click to expand...

Do it then, you make it sound pretty easy.
 
My crawl ratio in my JHF Trail is 75:1. I have no reason to top 30mph, and water in the front tires reminds me of that.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Speed calculator says

1:1 high gear

5.29 diffs

1.92 portals

40" tires


64.4 mph at 5500 rpm and 41 mph at 3500 rpm

Up to you how low of a crawl ratio you want. 3:1 tcase only gets about 75:1.
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No, I'm saying 3.0:1 ring and pinion in the Ford 9" diffs....my tcases are 3 speed Heroes with 2.5 and 5.44:1.

The calculator I linked says 70 mph would be 3497rpm with 42s (40.5" tall realistically) in 3rd gear (1:1) in a TH400 with 3.0 axle gears and 1.91 portal reduction (5.7 axle gear reduction combined)....hence my question in bold.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Do it then, you make it sound pretty easy.
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I'm not in the business of making offroad toys :homer:

Gimme $50k and I'll get the gears in motion for you.

While I'm at it, I'll develop a 'bulletproof' kit for the ecoblow. 'Tards will love that:flipoff2:
 
woody said:
My crawl ratio in my JHF Trail is 75:1. I have no reason to top 30mph, and water in the front tires reminds me of that.
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woody you're the one to ask since you're speaking from 1st hand experience:

Question: with the 1.91 gearing reduction at the portal and the 3.0 gears in the diffs, I'm still at 5.73:1 in terms of combined axle ratio.....wouldn't that still take stress off the driveline and tcase regardless? If anything, the 3.0 gears would put more stress on the portal gears/axle shafts than a 4.11 would, right?

Asking for a little patience with me here as I know I'm going against the grain with this build (and my wife's) and it's dictated in large part by budget. She's on the mend from surviving breast cancer and we're in the position to not really have the financial wherewithal to completely start over. I've already spent the money on the Hero 3 speeds and the LS 5.3s and definitely want to use them.

IYO, do you think it's likely that a 3.0:1 axle gear ratio in the Ford 9" diffs would mean breaking Jesse's 9310 portal gears or 300M shafts and either Jesse's D60 hybrid RCVs or the Branik 50* he's R&Ding now with 42" BFG Reds or Milestar 42" Blacks? Neither of us are hammer down drivers.....we are pretty conservative and have no issues with trying a different line or pulling cable if we are struggling and holding up the group. Would a 4.11 really be much better in terms of keeping axle/portal gear breakage to a minimum?
 
Sean you seem a bit confused on how gearing works.

Running higher gearing in the center section (e.g. 3.00:1) to get RPM down will lower your crawl ratio and put more stress on everything upstream for a given load at the wheel.

In order to overcome a given resistance to your tires turning, the portals and axles shafts will see the same load regardless of the gear ratio in your center section. Your driveshafts, transfer case, transmission, engine, and suspension however will all be working harder with 3.00:1 gears versus something lower like 4.10-5.29s.

Given that your crawl ratio would be worse with 3.00 gears, you are limiting the maximum torque that can possibly be delivered downstream of the center section. In a bound up situation, the axle shafts and portal boxes will see less stress than if you had lower gears in your center section.

All that said, you aren't ever going to be cruising at interstate speeds. If you do get up to 70mph it is going to be pretty brief, so who cares if the motor is revved out. It is an LS, not a Freightliner diesel.
 
bunk said:
What ever happened to the waiting list?
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After months of calling and emailing, I finally got this non-reply a week ago:
Good morning,
We are extremely short handed and overwhelmed with emails/messages/calls, I apologize we missed your emails. We are completely focused on machining and building cases right now in an attempt to get caught up, we will keep you in the loop as we get closer.
Thank you for your patience.

Sincerely,
Midnight Metalworks
[email protected]
307-655-5284
Sheridan, Wy
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I sent them yet another email afterwards asking for my number in line and they never responded :shaking:
 
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'84 Bronco II said:
After months of calling and emailing, I finally got this non-reply a week ago:


I sent them yet another email afterwards asking for my number in line and they never responded :shaking:
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I bet they got clapped out tape readin cnc machines that are broke down.
 
Sean said:
woody you're the one to ask since you're speaking from 1st hand experience:

Question: with the 1.91 gearing reduction at the portal and the 3.0 gears in the diffs, I'm still at 5.73:1 in terms of combined axle ratio.....wouldn't that still take stress off the driveline and tcase regardless? If anything, the 3.0 gears would put more stress on the portal gears/axle shafts than a 4.11 would, right?
Click to expand...
Hmm....my 75:1 is trans/case/portal/diff, so 3 x 2.6 x 1.9 x 4.88 (rounded). Where each of those fall in line is part of what prevents things from breaking. IMO, you'll regret not going deeper in the diffs to keep that stress down.

My breakage list in 18 months (and LOTS of wheeling) is a front driveshaft weld, and a twisted 300m long side front inner shaft. Today will be 9 days in a row of wheeling, and I'll wager I get 150 days a year on the trails. There is nothing more frustrating that finishing that $50k build and trying to keep to a budget, only to have continued issues because $1k in diff gears was too much :)
 
Like they said, go with lower ring and pinion gears, you'll never need to cruise at 75 mph. Do the math to be at 6500 rpm at 75 not 3500.
 
'84 Bronco II said:
Sean you seem a bit confused on how gearing works.

Running higher gearing in the center section (e.g. 3.00:1) to get RPM down will lower your crawl ratio and put more stress on everything upstream for a given load at the wheel.

In order to overcome a given resistance to your tires turning, the portals and axles shafts will see the same load regardless of the gear ratio in your center section. Your driveshafts, transfer case, transmission, engine, and suspension however will all be working harder with 3.00:1 gears versus something lower like 4.10-5.29s.

Given that your crawl ratio would be worse with 3.00 gears, you are limiting the maximum torque that can possibly be delivered downstream of the center section. In a bound up situation, the axle shafts and portal boxes will see less stress than if you had lower gears in your center section.

All that said, you aren't ever going to be cruising at interstate speeds. If you do get up to 70mph it is going to be pretty brief, so who cares if the motor is revved out. It is an LS, not a Freightliner diesel.
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I understand that 3.0 axle gears will put more stress on everything upstream than 4.11s will. However, with a combined 5.7:1 (1.91 portal x 3.0 axle gear)....is it really any different than say, 5.86s (picking that axle gear ratio b/c I currently run it on 42s) in my current buggy's D60s with similar Toyota ujoint drivelines and a weaker Atlas II/Toyota box in terms of the stress upstream?

If the answer is, "not really any different".....then what I'm asking is: How much more stress will 3.0 axle gears put on the DOWNSTREAM parts like the axle shafts and portal gears vs. a 4.11 axle gear (is it even quantifiable?...this is more of an opinion question for guys who've run JHF portals) and is it an acceptable trade off to get lower RPMs for cruising to the trail itself?

EDIT Just realized that you're right...I am confused about the downstream stress. You're saying a 4.11 will put more stress on the axle shafts and portal boxes than a 3.0 axle gear would. I was incorrectly thinking of it backwards.***

Thank you for the kind way you phrased and explained all that....:beer:
 
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woody said:
Hmm....my 75:1 is trans/case/portal/diff, so 3 x 2.6 x 1.9 x 4.88 (rounded). Where each of those fall in line is part of what prevents things from breaking. IMO, you'll regret not going deeper in the diffs to keep that stress down.

My breakage list in 18 months (and LOTS of wheeling) is a front driveshaft weld, and a twisted 300m long side front inner shaft. Today will be 9 days in a row of wheeling, and I'll wager I get 150 days a year on the trails. There is nothing more frustrating that finishing that $50k build and trying to keep to a budget, only to have continued issues because $1k in diff gears was too much :)
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I have to spend the money on complete 3rds regardless (I don't have those yet) but I greatly appreciate and respect your advice and will go with the original plan of staying up in the 4s for the axle gears based on your experience.

Thanks very much for your input! :cool2:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Like they said, go with lower ring and pinion gears, you'll never need to cruise at 75 mph. Do the math to be at 6500 rpm at 75 not 3500.
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With 4.11s, high range, 3rd gear in the trans at 6K rpm I'd be doing 88mph according to the linked calculator. Thanks for the calculator suggestion.

And apologies to everyone for the thread derail.
 
Sean said:
With 4.11s, high range, 3rd gear in the trans at 6K rpm I'd be doing 88mph according to the linked calculator. Thanks for the calculator suggestion.

And apologies to everyone for the thread derail.
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What's your priority with the buggy? I guess everyone hears portals and assumes tiny moon buggy, but it sounds like you want something more all around.
 
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