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Inca stone walls

subybaja said:
I didn't say it was simple or unimpressive. It was neither.

Get with the times. "Slaves" was the 1950s explanation. Since then, they've found the seasonal worker's quarters, what they ate, pay records, timecards of who worked how much in between farming...

The Lost City of the Pyramid Builders|AERA

aeraweb.org aeraweb.org


People talk about "slaves" as though it's a southern plantation harvesting a field. Think of it more as the Holy Roman Emperor turning the entire Catholic religion to building the Hoover Dam. The pyramids were massive centralized community works, financed by the rulers of an empire 10x older then America. You think the Feds are powerful and wasteful? Try a bureaucracy that's been around for 80 generations!

Go back and read this thread. I've already posted examples of contemporary barges plenty big to haul the stones from the quarries. The quarries with half-cut stones still in place. There's no mystery.


:lmao:
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I've done plenty of research, and I'm not seeing a mystery, just talented craftsmen working for decades.

1. Yeah, and? Principles of tubular free abrasive drilling - Антропогенез.РУ
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1mm an hour cutting speed doesn’t exactly sound like an industrial operation, less than a half an inch a day and some of the drill cores are feet deep.

subybaja said:
2. Yep, they were competent at their jobs. God-King said "Make this perfect.", and they did.
Well, mostly. Here's one with mistakes.

LINK
MK_alabaster_vase_jpg.jpg

Fig. 17. A cross-sectioned Middle Kingdom travertinevessel from the Southern Pyramid at Mazghuneh. (TheManchester Museum, Photograph by Jon Bodsworth TheEgypt Archive)


LINK
carpenters_beadmakers_jpg.jpg

Fig. 2. a) Egyptian carpenters using a bowdrill.b) Beadmakers using a triple bit bowdrill and threading beads for a necklace.Both from a tomb at Thebes c.1450 BC (after Singer et. al. 1954).

Pics or it didn't happen! OK:

LINK
vase_making_using_a_boring_tool_jpg.jpg

Fig. 3. a) Tomb representation of vase making using arboring tool. b) Tool reconstruction of type used in gypsum vessel manufacturing(after Hodges 1964).
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I’m calling bs on the ability to get dimensions within different planes parallel within thousands of each other with a bow drill. I’ll find the stls tonight from the vases that have been scanned and post them.

subybaja said:
3. Sanding something smooth is puzzling? I mean, it's great artisanship, but rubbing rocks together doesn't seem like a mystery.
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I’m just failing to see how you polish something like that while keeping all of your tolerances, doing it with hand tools and beating rocks together. Even when you look at the Roman’s arguably a more sophisticated society they used marble for the majority of their construction and when they used granite, from what I have seen, it wasn't as complexed or as well done.

subybaja said:
4. See above. They HAD thousands of workers, complex structure, etc.

No lost technologies, no inexplicable mystery, just a gigantic ancient empire employing generations of competent craftsmen, leaving behind tools, buildings, records, and methods as they went.

Ancient megaliths are fascinating in their own right, as human achievements. The organization, labor, and techniques are worthy of study. Dismissing their achievements as magic degrades them to fairy stories.
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I agree with you but If the explanation was they just had lots of slaves why haven’t we recreated anything like it since with all the modern indulgences we have today. Is it just as simple as it doesn’t make sense to build that way?

As with any agrarian society you need more people in the fields at planting and harvest than the rest of the time of the year.

So you have 20-60k workers that are slaves that the builders or masons can use for grunt work for 2/3 of the year. Dividing up the workforce between the quarry’s, transportation, placing and finishing I just don’t see how they could have done it in the 30 years time traditional history says they did. 80-150 years seems more likely and that just the great pyramid let alone all the other ancillary structures that were built as part of the pyramid process.

Modern large structure stadiums, skyscrapers ect take ten years at a minimum and employ just as many workers from start to finish. I just fail to see how not having modern infrastructure and machines you could pull off building of that scale in less than a lifetime.
 
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subybaja said:
No lost technologies, no inexplicable mystery, just a gigantic ancient empire employing generations of competent craftsmen, leaving behind tools, buildings, records, and methods as they went.

Ancient megaliths are fascinating in their own right, as human achievements. The organization, labor, and techniques are worthy of study. Dismissing their achievements as magic degrades them to fairy stories.
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Thank you! :smokin: And I mean that, no snark. No magic, no aliens. Just crazy human labor.

Humans moved a pair of giant stone monoliths in the 1800’s. Cleopatra’s needles weighing 220 tons, and their base stones. One is in England and the other in the US. They carefully tipped them over to laying down using ropes and pulleys in Alexandria Egypt. Towed them to the port on temporary railroad tracks laid out just for that task. Built a steam ship around each of them. The one that went to England almost got lost, people died on that one and the ship was later found floating all by itself. They towed it on home with another steam ship. The one that came to America made it with no issues all the way across the Atlantic. Once they landed at their respective ports, the ship had to be dismantled from around the stone. More temporary rail road used to move it from the port to its new home. The officiation ceremony for the one in New York happened in 1881. A year each of just hard manual labor to lay down, move, stand each one back up.

Why do I bring it up like that? That was two teams working separately to move previously formed spires. With machines made of steel. That’s two rocks, two years worth of work that doesn’t include the shaping of the stone itself.

How does one suppose the Egyptians sped that process?
 
bdkw1 said:
There is no way in hell to get a hand operated drill to feed at the rate those cores have feed lines for. I'm not even aware of any modern machinery that will feed through granite that fast
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Don’t let common sense get in the way of a good story!
 
JR4X said:
Thank you! :smokin: And I mean that, no snark. No magic, no aliens. Just crazy human labor.

Humans moved a pair of giant stone monoliths in the 1800’s. Cleopatra’s needles weighing 220 tons, and their base stones. One is in England and the other in the US. They carefully tipped them over to laying down using ropes and pulleys in Alexandria Egypt. Towed them to the port on temporary railroad tracks laid out just for that task. Built a steam ship around each of them. The one that went to England almost got lost, people died on that one and the ship was later found floating all by itself. They towed it on home with another steam ship. The one that came to America made it with no issues all the way across the Atlantic. Once they landed at their respective ports, the ship had to be dismantled from around the stone. More temporary rail road used to move it from the port to its new home. The officiation ceremony for the one in New York happened in 1881. A year each of just hard manual labor to lay down, move, stand each one back up.

Why do I bring it up like that? That was two teams working separately to move previously formed spires. With machines made of steel. That’s two rocks, two years worth of work that doesn’t include the shaping of the stone itself.

How does one suppose the Egyptians sped that process?
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A 75 foot tall Egyptian obelisk had stood in Rome since ancient times.

1500 years later, the Pope wanted to relocate it to St. Peter's square, 800 feet away. This tested the might of renaissance engineering and technology. Again, the Romans had brought the thing all the way from Egypt :laughing:


The story is quite interesting.

obelisk_op_het_St._Pietersplein%2C_RP-P-OB-207.655.jpg




en.wikipedia.org

Vatican obelisk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
I like when some archaeologist will put a dimple in a rock with a team of undergrad researchers working over the course of a week and act like they've demonstrated how these things could've been created. Like bro, I don't think you demonstrated what you think you did. :laughing:
 
Pocahontas said:
I agree with you but If the explanation was they just had lots of slaves
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:shaking:

Pocahontas said:
So you have 20-60k workers that are slaves that the builders or masons can use for grunt work for 2/3 of the year. Dividing up the workforce between the quarry’s, transportation, placing and finishing I just don’t see how they could have done it in the 30 years time traditional history says they did. 80-150 years seems more likely and that just the great pyramid let alone all the other ancillary structures that were built as part of the pyramid process.
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"My stride is 33.75", and I just measured how fast I can walk across this room, and then divided that into the distance from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and proved conclusively that no one could walk across America in under 3 years."

"But, but, here's a guy who did it in 42 days!"

"Nah, that's unbelievable, no one could do that."

"But he took notes. And pictures. And receipts for what he ate. And what shoes he wore."

"Whatever. It's puzzling how anyone could do that."
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You're looking into the wrong end of the telescope- the megaliths exist, and were made by humans, who had bronze-age technology. Find the simplest solution.
 
Yet no one has been able to demonstrate how they feasibly did it. Putting a dimple in a rock after many man hours is not demonstrating feasibility.
 
east_beast said:
Yet no one has been able to demonstrate how they feasibly did it. Putting a dimple in a rock after many man hours is not demonstrating feasibility.
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Instead of saying "Nah, that's unbelievable, no one could do that.", try to prove your hypothesis wrong. That's how science works. Go find people actually drilling holes with copper/bronze.

I'm still at work at 11pm, so this first google hit is all I have for you. I'm sure it doesn't count because they didn't actually build a pyramid.

 
subybaja said:
Instead of saying "Nah, that's unbelievable, no one could do that.", try to prove your hypothesis wrong. That's how science works. Go find people actually drilling holes with copper/bronze.

I'm still at work at 11pm, so this first google hit is all I have for you. I'm sure it doesn't count because they didn't actually build a pyramid.

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Now scale it up to megalithic proportions. That's what I'm saying. These demonstrations simply aren't feasible. Yay. You drilled an inch deep using a copper pipe. Cool. How long did that take? Does that really translate to a feasible explanation?

You just want to grasp at any demonstration of a small scale thing and say "LOL! Told you so!" without actually taking the next step and thinking about how long it would take and the manpower it would require using these types of techniques to build megalithic structures. Not to mention the need to scale the size up drastically.
 
Pocahontas said:
Modern large structure stadiums, skyscrapers ect take ten years at a minimum and employ just as many workers from start to finish. I just fail to see how not having modern infrastructure and machines you could pull off building of that scale in less than a lifetime.
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throw OSHA out the door and you can cut the timeline a LOT.

Empire state building was built in 13.5 months.
 
Sceep said:
throw OSHA out the door and you can cut the timeline a LOT.

Empire state building was built in 13.5 months.
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I would say 1850-1950 was the op era of getting shit done with mechanization and little oversight. Not sure on the moving of the stone and the flattening and terracing of the geza plateau. These are structures that are mined cut and set. We’re not talking about a few tons but every stone is tens or more of tons, pulling that from the bedrock, flattening the sides and moving that 400 feet in the air is a lot of work by man power alone.

I just find it puzzling we have a decent idea of how the vast majority of things were constructed in the ancient world but the older things get the more our understanding falls apart.

Looking at some of the sarcophagi they are flat within less than 10 thousands over 12 feet. How do you do that by rubbing and hitting rocks together?


Hell trying to keep things square today in modern construction is just a hope, if you’re within a 1/8 over 12 feet you’re doing well.
 
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TrailTamer said:
Also. There are evidences of melting granites??

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No. Just no. Just off the top of my head "granite" crystalizes from a silica melt under thousands of pounds of pressure at about 1400 C. Fabricate in your brain a mechanism in 4,000 BC or older to withstand that heat, feed it energy, from what source, get it down into that location, and aim it at those steps. :idea: I'll wait and keep an open mind. The erosion does indeed look weird. But that's it and doesn't create aliens or bronze tube cutting beetles.

Edit: :idea: If, when you "melt" granite rock, it doesn't cool into granite. That takes pressure and a long time, conditions not extant of the earths surface. You get glass. Cryptocrystalline structure, not large, well formed euhedral feldspars, quartz and micas. No. Just No.. Fact check that. :laughing:
 
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From the bullshit on Twitter - " As much as I want these steps to be made of a hard stone like granite, because of all the cool implications, they aren't. They're made of sandstone as confirmed in a recent on-site short video done by Brian Forrester."

So......... dunno. If it's softer sandstone and not "the whole place is built of solid granite" then we have an entirely different scenario. Anyone been there and grabbed a hand chunk for a thin section ? :lmao:
 
Not that it’s super relevant but there’s something weird with the sand stone interaction in that area. The stones, granite or sandstone that is buried ends up more weathered than the stone that’s exposed.
 
IMG_8562.jpeg


This is the best known one I can think of and pull a pic quickly, see arms are eroded and body is in good shape. It was supposedly buried as is on its back. Some people have said the ground water interacting with the sand and stone erodes the stones faster for some reason than the sand and wind alone.
 
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The carving looks like standard Indian stuff, feather not dot. How the hell did they get them up the cliff face though, unless they are part of the cliff and were just carved out. The thing that puzzles me is was tremendous effort to get them in place, if they were placed but for the carving let the special needs class get high and do that.
 
Pocahontas said:
The carving looks like standard Indian stuff, feather not dot. How the hell did they get them up the cliff face though, unless they are part of the cliff and were just carved out. The thing that puzzles me is was tremendous effort to get them in place, if they were placed but for the carving let the special needs class get high and do that.
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Those are the guardians of a tomb. They used a natural cave as a tomb and those rocks are from somewhere else moved up there to guard the entrance. Those are the “karajia chachapoyas” in Peru if you want to look em up.
 
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