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Hydraulic pressure skin piercing

Provience

Provience

Kill!
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Member Number
15
Messages
9,377
Loc
Gatesville, TX
Real? Fake? Otherwise?

Let's say 5k psi max operating, can a pinhole cut skin?

2.5k psi operating?

What does it take, and do those hoses ever rupture or fail in a way to make a pinhole last more than a moment?
 
Sure is. That's why in Ultra4 for example all the steering lines need to be shielded or routed away from possible contact.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Injection injuries: seemingly minor injuries with major consequences

Background: High-pressure injection injuries are rare injuries, characterized by a small puncture wound that is often underestimated by physicians and patients. The injected substance leads to extensive tissue damage and sometimes to loss of the limb. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In order to breach the human skin the ejection pressure has to be at least 100 pounds per square inch (psi)8 while most high-pressure guns and injectors reach pressures of 2000 to 12000 psi3.

The puncture wound is small, inconsiderable and not distinct. Initially the toxic substance causes edema and ischemia and later the combination of mechanical and chemical factors leads to compartment syndrome and consequently to fibrosis, adhesions, necrosis and secondary contractures and ulcerations, apart of the risk of systemic intoxication (acute renal failure, air embolism)1,9.
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Used to run log loader. When hoses would get pinched or scraped to the point of pin hole ruptures, they could spray as long as it had hydraulic pressure. It's not like a hydraulic hose just shreds into two when it fails.
 
gozuki said:
Way real. For waterjet training, they showed the aftermath of of an injection. IIRC the arm was amputated due to how much crap was injected into the local tissue.
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Water jet, certainly keep yourself clear. Just a standard hydraulic hose on about any random piece of equipment though?
 
ToughBowtieTruck said:
Used to run log loader. When hoses would get pinched or scraped to the point of pin hole ruptures, they could spray as long as it had hydraulic pressure. It's not like a hydraulic hose just shreds into two when it fails.
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Do you know of anybody who actually got a pierce or injury from it though?
 
vetteboy79 said:
Sure is. That's why in Ultra4 for example all the steering lines need to be shielded or routed away from possible contact.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Injection injuries: seemingly minor injuries with major consequences

Background: High-pressure injection injuries are rare injuries, characterized by a small puncture wound that is often underestimated by physicians and patients. The injected substance leads to extensive tissue damage and sometimes to loss of the limb. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov



Click to expand...
Uktra4 has lots of dumb rules though, do the lines every fail in use that way? Near the firewall, I'm curious how you could even get that kind of rupture and at the steering level it seems like it would loose energy very quickly with distance from source
 
Provience said:
Water jet, certainly keep yourself clear. Just a standard hydraulic hose on about any random piece of equipment though?
Click to expand...

Oh yes, most equipment you're talking about will be 1500psi+, more than enough to pierce skin. Even compressed air can do it. Air nozzles in industry will be limited to like 30psi. Look for some videos AvE has done on YouTube, it's quite shocking how easily damage can be done with this stuff.

As far as Ultra4, I know Shannon Campbell got 2nd or 3rd degree burns from an orbital line blowing at Glen Helen years ago. He didn't get pierced but the heat was so bad he thought he was on fire.
 


EDIT: This illustrates what can happen pretty well.
When Dad was a machinist mate in the Navy he saw several of these type of injuries, around 2000psi. Closer your proximity, higher the danger. In the belly of a destroyer most things that can hurt you are 24" away or less from where you have to stand/walk/work. According to him, of course.

Seek medical attention immediately or you may loose an arm or a leg from necrosis or gangrene.
 
Provience said:
Real? Fake? Otherwise?

Let's say 5k psi max operating, can a pinhole cut skin?

2.5k psi operating?

What does it take, and do those hoses ever rupture or fail in a way to make a pinhole last more than a moment?
Click to expand...
real
yes
yes
yes

The pin hole leaks i could see causing a injury, causing a pin hole type leak is abrasion damage. Rub the outter liner off and start rubbing on the braiding underneath, then the inner liner causes a pimple to push up through the braid and it pops.

Not all hydraulic hoses are braided aswell. There non conductive ones, that are more rigid that have some form of semi flexy pastic in them

It will spray hydrualic oil until it runs out or you shut it off.

its not about the damage of the puncture its the infection that gets you, in alot of cases its the blood infection.
 
TanTJJim said:
Oh yes, most equipment you're talking about will be 1500psi+, more than enough to pierce skin. Even compressed air can do it. Air nozzles in industry will be limited to like 30psi. Look for some videos AvE has done on YouTube, it's quite shocking how easily damage can be done with this stuff.

As far as Ultra4, I know Shannon Campbell got 2nd or 3rd degree burns from an orbital line blowing at Glen Helen years ago. He didn't get pierced but the heat was so bad he thought he was on fire.
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I can understand burns, the shit gets hot.

I know the threshold can be low, but will a 1.5 or 2.5k psi system in what is likely a 3.5k+ rated hose sustain a pinhole effective to cause damage? Aside from happening to have your hand right on top of the pinhole right when it ruptures, is it possible ?

Will 5k pierce with a larger than pinhole stream?
 
A_G said:
real
yes
yes
yes

The pin hole leaks i could see causing a injury, causing a pin hole type leak is abrasion damage. Rub the outter liner off and start rubbing on the braiding underneath, then the inner liner causes a pimple to push up through the braid and it pops.

Not all hydraulic hoses are braided aswell. There non conductive ones, that are more rigid that have some form of semi flexy pastic in them

It will spray hydrualic oil until it runs out or you shut it off.

its not about the damage of the puncture its the infection that gets you, in alot of cases its the blood infection.
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Abrasion wear makes the most sense. I was trying to think about how they could even occur.

What would the effective range be? 6" maybe?
 
Provience said:
I can understand burns, the shit gets hot.

I know the threshold can be low, but will a 1.5 or 2.5k psi system in what is likely a 3.5k+ rated hose sustain a pinhole effective to cause damage? Aside from happening to have your hand right on top of the pinhole right when it ruptures, is it possible ?

Will 5k pierce with a larger than pinhole stream?
Click to expand...


maybe.

Why are you asking?
 
IowaOffRoad said:
Provience If you are trying to 'manufacture' a workplace injury that will lead to a settlement, but not lead to long-term damage to you, pick something else:flipoff2:
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I'm not, but people talk about it all the time like it I'd electric shock or debris in your eye....stuff that happens often (or could but we are all just so damn careful)
 
Provience said:
I'm not, but people talk about it all the time like it I'd electric shock or debris in your eye....stuff that happens often (or could but we are all just so damn careful)
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I can count on one hand those who have been afflicted with such an injury in almost 40 years... BUT it's a bigger number than those I know who've died of COVID:stirthepot:
 
What were the old shot injections in the military psi-wise. I remember the flinchers got sliced
 
A_G said:
maybe.

Why are you asking?
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Just a random thought because somebody said something about hydraulics a few days ago and quickly mentioned piercing due to pressure right along with it.

As in, hey these are electrical wires, don't put them in your mouth when hot...


But; sometimes hydraulic systems, but be careful because the pressure can be high and it will pierce you
 
Provience said:
Abrasion wear makes the most sense. I was trying to think about how they could even occur.

What would the effective range be? 6" maybe?
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A pin hole at 5k i would say within 2 foot

I bet you there is a math forumula out there to figure out how much psi drops over a given area after it releases from a restriction.

Thought to have, is you maybe pushing 5k psi through a half inch hose. So your pushing units of oil say a space of a 1/2" cube, when a "pin hole" opens in the hoses its shoving alot of fluid through a small orfice so the pressure will increase...some of the fluid will atomize and in the grand scheme of things..tempature should actually drop after its pushed through the restriction
 
Provience said:
I can understand burns, the shit gets hot.

I know the threshold can be low, but will a 1.5 or 2.5k psi system in what is likely a 3.5k+ rated hose sustain a pinhole effective to cause damage? Aside from happening to have your hand right on top of the pinhole right when it ruptures, is it possible ?

Will 5k pierce with a larger than pinhole stream?
Click to expand...

Pressure is pressure whether it's a tiny pinhole or a larger stream. I think I see where your line of thought is though and if I'm correct the question you have would be more related to distance from the hole. You're obviously more susceptible to injury the closer the skin is to the leak at the hose or whatever, obviously the further away your skin is the less risk there is. It should also follow that a tiny leak will lose it's effective risk much closer to the leak whereas a larger leak will have more risk further from the leak.

edit. It looks like A_G covered what I'm trying to convey pretty well also. The real point is that we have little control over the size of the leak so it's best to have controls in place to minimize risk altogether.
 
A_G said:
A pin hole at 5k i would say within 2 foot

I bet you there is a math forumula out there to figure out how much psi drops over a given area after it releases from a restriction.

Thought to have, is you maybe pushing 5k psi through a half inch hose. So your pushing units of oil say a space of a 1/2" cube, when a "pin hole" opens in the hoses its shoving alot of fluid through a small orfice so the pressure will increase...some of the fluid will atomize and in the grand scheme of things..tempature should actually drop after its pushed through the restriction
Click to expand...
I'm also trying to wrap my head around how you would have this kind of failure in a way that you would be in the line and close enough for a problem. It seems like a sudden pressure spike, say a mechanical overload failure, wouldn't be very likely to result in a pinhole rupture
 
I think it was probably a more common injury per-capita at one time, just like electric shock and falling from great height, because more people were willing to do shit for themselves and were less scared of their shadow. This, of course, led to more people doing things that they shouldn't with their intellect and experience, but a small price to pay for the majority of people having some kind of experience evaluating cost/benefit and risk/reward. Things that are lacking today.

Provience said:
I'm also trying to wrap my head around how you would have this kind of failure in a way that you would be in the line and close enough for a problem. It seems like a sudden pressure spike, say a mechanical overload failure, wouldn't be very likely to result in a pinhole rupture
Click to expand...

I would worry less about a hose and more about a crack in a fitting, hardline, bulkhead, or housing. I've seen more of the magic rainbow oil stream (or flame thrower depending on where it occurs) come out at high pressure from one of these than a hose, but it does happen, especially in an environment where you mix weld splatter and hydraulics.
 
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