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How short of a solid axle swap on first gen Tacoma is possible?

Lil'John

Lil'John

Former #278
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Thread title is short. What is min lift that can be done with leaf spring SAS?

Victim is an 02 trd 4wd tacoma extra cab.

Longer:
What might prevent 1" lift SAS? Oil pan?

edit with more info
The truck can't maintain an alignment to save it's tires. The last set I just replaced lasted under 10k:eek: This is less than the 15k or 17k I got from Super Swampers and Baja Claws... yes, one step below an all-terrain couldn't last 10k. The alignment didn't last 6 months and I'm not doing stupid driving.

My old 99 Tacoma didn't eat tires like this even without doing an alignment in 144k:eek: This was doing almost abusive wheeling too often.

So, rather than continue to fuck with the existing setup, I'd rather just SAS it. The SAS would probably pay for itself in two to three years.:confused:

The reason for super low SAS is to stay in a 31 to 32" tire. The truck is a daily driver and the worst 'wheeling' it will ever see is snowed on roads. I've got Land Cruisers for real wheeling.
 
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The frame will be the limiting factor. Chip the frame off from the rear of the fender wells forward and rebuild with something arched and you'll be able to keep it a lot lower.
 
Lil'John said:
Thread title is short. What is min lift that can be done with leaf spring SAS?

Victim is an 02 trd 4wd tacoma extra cab.

Longer:
What might prevent 1" lift SAS? Oil pan?
<this spot reserved for more details this afternoon>
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Check out my build thread, mines low slung and on leafs. It's actually kind of annoying to wheel and it needs to be taller, basically the same truck you are working with. Chop the front frame off and make some arches on the new frame and the oil pan will be your limiting factor.
 
Thanks for the replies so far. Plan was for spring under along with other bracket/spring lowering options: rear mounted spring hangers and front mount spring sliders.

From my memory, classic Taco SAS was:
Rancho 44044 (5" Waggy springs??)
Rear sump oil pan
Mini truck IFS PS box
Waggy axle

Without going frame cutting, how low can I go? I'll take a look tomorrow but anyone know off top of head?

Upward travel isn't going to be critical as this truck isn't a real wheeling rig. Pulling from edit in original post: Fucking truck won't hold an alignment and I'm tired of 10k mile tires every year:eek:
 
If your not gonna wheel it, I would look for a d30 out of a TJ/yj/xj/zj/wj and radius arm it like those guys do. That way it can be on coils and not ride like ass and you could run the factory low type steering those have and not have to worry about anything. Hardest part would be placing the pan hard bar so you don't get death wobble and bump steer, but that still shouldn't be hard. That setup would probably work just fine even if you were going to lightly wheel it.
 
Sonoran did a SUA 4runner with about 2-3” of lift way back in the old days.

Big issues are oil pan and drag link.
 
As much as this goes against this forum.....

What you want is a huge step backwards and a waste of money, if the goal is just to drive it on the street, imo. Figure out the issues and fix and/or upgrade the ifs. There is a lot of support for that platform. What is actually going out of alignment?
 
YotaAtieToo said:
As much as this goes against this forum.....

What you want is a huge step backwards and a waste of money, if the goal is just to drive it on the street, imo. Figure out the issues and fix and/or upgrade the ifs. There is a lot of support for that platform. What is actually going out of alignment?
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Agreed. Bad alignments kill tires, but the truck should hold alignment barring mechanical (worn, broken steering/suspension parts) or structural issues (bent frame, etc).

If you're on a 31/32 tire, I assume you have 0-minimal lift (an assumption for sure) but I would check all of the front end (which should be done before any alignment is done) and if that all checks out, start digging deeper. How are the tires wearing?
 
YotaAtieToo said:
As much as this goes against this forum.....

What you want is a huge step backwards and a waste of money, if the goal is just to drive it on the street, imo. Figure out the issues and fix and/or upgrade the ifs. There is a lot of support for that platform. What is actually going out of alignment?
Click to expand...

Cameronswmp9 said:
Agreed. Bad alignments kill tires, but the truck should hold alignment barring mechanical (worn, broken steering/suspension parts) or structural issues (bent frame, etc).

If you're on a 31/32 tire, I assume you have 0-minimal lift (an assumption for sure) but I would check all of the front end (which should be done before any alignment is done) and if that all checks out, start digging deeper. How are the tires wearing?
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No disagreement from me that doing a SAS to fix an alignment issue is a bit odd. Tire wear is inside edge on both front tires. From my brief research, this is an issue with toe in and not camber/caster.

Some long info:
This truck has had tire wear since day one that I got it(18???) Back in Jan of this year, the upper passenger ball joint failed(25mph). I took to shop and had repaired. As part of the repair, an alignment was performed. Nothing was identified as an issue once the repair was done and it didn't barely get into spec.

I will say that both strut bushings have failed again in the last 3 months or so. I replaced them within the last year with I believe Moog replacements. I don't recall if this was before or after failure above. I'm considering the SAS because I'm looking at having to replace both struts.

The truck to best of my knowledge has zero lift and is running a 31" tire in whatever flavor is below all terrain. Wheeling involves going through snow to get to town. The roads aren't bad in my area. Not great but not bad.

As I noted, I bought an almost clone of this truck in 99 new off the lot(non-TRD). I beat the shit out of the truck wheeling and never did an alignment. Think playing pinball going up dirt hills. IT never ate tires like this SOB. BFG MTs lasted 35k with even wear while Swamper Radial and Baja Claw lasted ~15k also with even wear.

With the above said, I agree an alignment should hold short of 8" deep pot hole at 55mph. I haven't hit one that bad.

edit
I'd certainly take suggestions on front suspension upgrades that will help lock in the alignment and upgrade 'mountain road' driving.
 
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Lil'John said:
No disagreement from me that doing a SAS to fix an alignment issue is a bit odd. Tire wear is inside edge on both front tires. From my brief research, this is an issue with toe in and not camber/caster.

Some long info:
This truck has had tire wear since day one that I got it(18???) Back in Jan of this year, the upper passenger ball joint failed(25mph). I took to shop and had repaired. As part of the repair, an alignment was performed. Nothing was identified as an issue once the repair was done and it didn't barely get into spec.

I will say that both strut bushings have failed again in the last 3 months or so. I replaced them within the last year with I believe Moog replacements. I don't recall if this was before or after failure above. I'm considering the SAS because I'm looking at having to replace both struts.

The truck to best of my knowledge has zero lift and is running a 31" tire in whatever flavor is below all terrain. Wheeling involves going through snow to get to town. The roads aren't bad in my area. Not great but not bad.

As I noted, I bought an almost clone of this truck in 99 new off the lot(non-TRD). I beat the shit out of the truck wheeling and never did an alignment. Think playing pinball going up dirt hills. IT never ate tires like this SOB. BFG MTs lasted 35k with even wear while Swamper Radial and Baja Claw lasted ~15k also with even wear.

With the above said, I agree an alignment should hold short of 8" deep pot hole at 55mph. I haven't hit one that bad.

edit
I'd certainly take suggestions on front suspension upgrades that will help lock in the alignment and upgrade 'mountain road' driving.
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Have you tried a different alignment shop? Have you looked at it, shook it down, compared looking left and right, and comparing? I wonder if you have something slightly bent, hard to tell with the naked eye, where some measurements come in. That's where I would start. Spindle, UCA/LCA, tie rod.... Possibly aligning straight but toe out on turns with bent parts can really mess it up.

As far as upgrades, they are plentiful and up to your hearts content.
 
Cameronswmp9 said:
Have you tried a different alignment shop? Have you looked at it, shook it down, compared looking left and right, and comparing? I wonder if you have something slightly bent, hard to tell with the naked eye, where some measurements come in. That's where I would start. Spindle, UCA/LCA, tie rod.... Possibly aligning straight but toe out on turns with bent parts can really mess it up.

As far as upgrades, they are plentiful and up to your hearts content.
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I have not tried another alignment shop. I will be doing so sometime this coming week now that I tossed some new tires on it.

I haven't looked at it recently. But last time I looked, there was no visible damage that would cause me to suspect any 'deep' issues. When I had the ball joint repaired, the shop gave it the once over and I don't recall anything being reported. I'll check receipt when I can find it.

I'll see if I can dig up pictures of how bad the tires get but think inner edge going to cords while outside edge almost looks new:eek: No, the truck doesn't looked stanced when looking at it from the front.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for in upgrade parts but my quick google didn't show shit aside from Trailgear "SAS kit".:shaking: If I buy upgrade parts, which parts are going to give me the best bang for buck in terms of onroad performance? New control arms? Performance coil overs? I'm not above spending money for quality/performance parts if the benefit is known or at least intuitive.
 
Definitely sounds like a camber or toe out issue, but camber should show up on the alignment. Did you get print outs of the alignment to show the specs? Ask about toe out on turns, they should have a way to check it. A Toyota specialty shop would be a smart call too.

WFO has a solid kit, but will be pure overkill for what you use the truck for, SD60s and all. Doing this would be pushing your cruiser territory, but it's a sweet kit.

As far as upgrades, it's your hearts desire. Basic strut setup, coilovers, long travel, etc. If I were you, find issue and fix/upgrade, as you aren't wheeling the truck where you really need much, then I would probably just replace struts as needed, possibly a slight lift if desired. The coilovers, mid/long travel stuff just isn't needed. I know Marlin, and possibly a few others, make the locking plates for the cams, but I don't have any real experience with them.
 
My daily is a Fj cruiser on 33's (one generation newer suspension) I've beat the thing like a rented mule. (Bent a spindle, broken lower strut eye, bent tie rods, trashed Cvs, ball joints, the whole nine yards:shaking:)

Might be worth checking your Lower control arm bushings for play, and the camber/caster eccentrics, and the tabs they ride in, If you haven't already. Frame tabs are sometimes prone to bending and getting bashed wider then the OD of the eccentric Cams.

From the research I've done, this sometimes is a hit and miss issue, with some trucks having issues and some not.

From my understanding, this is what causes MY ongoing tire wear issues, eccentrics will slide back and forth in the frame slots if the tabs are bent or worn, causing everything to get rather "Dynamic"

Again, I'm working with a generation newer, but maybe worth looking into on your yota.

SAS is IMO not worth it to fix alignment issues, If you keep going through Cvs, bending tie rods, AND knocking your alignment out, maybe the "cost" (Time, money, headache) would balance out.

But that being said, We're all just people on the internet, if you wanna SAS your Taco, giver.
 
Korzenowsky I haven't done full on disassemble diagnosis. I have done an 'external' visual diagnosis looking for any obvious bends or road rash; none found.

But, on the camber issue with worn out lower control arms, eccentrics, and tabs, I would think the alignment shop wouldn't have been able to set it. The alignment worked for maybe six months of no tire wear. Then it was gone.

As I commented, going with a SAS strictly to fix an alignment issue probably is a bit much. But I do need new struts so that cost washes out. Not buying tires every 6-9 months makes the pain of SAS a bit less.
YotaAtieToo said:
What is actually going out of alignment?
Click to expand...
I only play a mechanic so I couldn't tell you what is going out of alignment. As I noted, the tires are getting completely roasted along the inner edge of both front tires; bald inside with full tread outside:eek: My google mechanic ability says this is toe in issue.

On the new rack and TREs, that is an option. I had the bushings in the rack replaced back in Jan when the upper ball joint failed. But wouldn't that also show as being unable to align? Again, I have no idea.
 
Found a picture from very first set of tires that I burned through after I bought truck:
badTires.jpg

These weren't generic no-name brand. I can't recall brand but I could dig it up after the yard dries up. I've burned up three other sets since the above picture. The strut bushing in the picture shows almost normal location. The upper end of the tab is almost level with the upper metal of the strut right now.

If you look at the truck from the front, there is no noticeable inward tilt to the tire at the top.
 
Slander said:
My Avalon did that when the struts blew out.
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Isn't it the case that in a lot of car the strut is part of the camber(caster) adjustment and there isn't an upper control arm? With this Tacoma, the 'strut' assembly just provides a compact method to mount the spring/shock assembly.:confused:
 
rockota said:
Damn. Something’s forked.
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Yeah.

Here is what the strut bushing looks like as of 3pm pst today:
badBush.jpg


The above is a six to eight month old Moog bushing that I pressed in. The strut feels good: I push down on hood and it comes back up without a lot of rebounds.
 
Definitely a toe issue, can see the feathering on that tire. Something is fawked for sure.

Obviously not being there to really look at it, and that picture is showing the strut and not much else in steering suspension. I'd bet a donut there's something bent in there.
 
Any Pics from front of vehicle? Pics of upper and lowe ball joint areas? Pics of TRE’s and rack?
 
a 2.0x12 coilover with a radius arm setup is going to be the 'simplest' SAS solution, however if you dont have the skills to deal with the IFS, i doubt you will be able to handle the SAS.

the lower control arms bushing flex, not rotate so is possible theyre blown out and the bolts are still tight. those racks are also know for being sloppy, hence the poly bushings.

id start with the following items to deal with the IFS and would look into replacing the lower arms. something is pissed if there is that much tire wear. check for cracked upper strut/arm mount.

Toyota Tacoma 2.5 Coil-Over Reservoir (Set) 1995-2004, 0-2" Lift, Front - Kartek Off-Road

Toyota Tacoma 2.5 Coil-Over Reservoir (Set) 1995-2004, 0-2" Lift, Front for a sandrail, rock Crawler, KOH, Ultra4, truck, UTV, side-by-side, dune buggy, mini buggy, manx, king of the hammers, 4x4, or Jeep
www.kartek.com www.kartek.com

Urethane Steering Rack Bushing Kit For 96-04 6-lug Tacoma & 96-02 4Runner - Kartek Off-Road

Urethane Steering Rack Bushing Kit For 96-04 6-lug Tacoma & 96-02 4Runner for a sandrail, rock Crawler, KOH, Ultra4, truck, UTV, side-by-side, dune buggy, mini buggy, manx, king of the hammers, 4x4, or Jeep
www.kartek.com www.kartek.com

Lower Control Arm Cam Tab Gussets For 96-04 Tacoma Prerunner/4WD, 96-02 4Runner - Kartek Off-Road

Lower Control Arm Cam Tab Gussets For 96-04 Tacoma Prerunner/4WD, 96-02 4Runner for a sandrail, rock Crawler, KOH, Ultra4, truck, UTV, side-by-side, dune buggy, mini buggy, manx, king of the hammers, 4x4, or Jeep
www.kartek.com www.kartek.com
 
My strut bushings look only slightly better than that and my tires wear great. Definitely not the issue.

Edit: although, because the struts hold the wieght of the rig, it could contribute to my theory of sagged front end causing it.

I'd look at a set of nice set of replacement struts with new coils and maybe a new rack.
 
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mobil1syn said:
a 2.0x12 coilover with a radius arm setup is going to be the 'simplest' SAS solution, however if you dont have the skills to deal with the IFS, i doubt you will be able to handle the SAS.

the lower control arms bushing flex, not rotate so is possible theyre blown out and the bolts are still tight. those racks are also know for being sloppy, hence the poly bushings.

<snip>
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Nothing says I don't have the skills to rebuild front IFS. I lack experience/knowledge of diagnosing what is going on in the front.

I do have the skill to a SAS with no issue. I've done more than a few similar projects. Most recent was rear spring replacement in a project.

$2k on coilovers won't happen... that will almost pay for all the parts needed for SAS: ~$350 for springs/brackets, ~$350 PS stuff, and a bunch left for choosing axle... if I up the budget a hair, that can be Ruffstuff housing.

Rack bushings were replaced in Jan along with other parts when I got ball joint repaired. I don't recall if the control arms were replaced at same time. I'm still looking for my receipt.
 
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