H1 portal kit beside JHF

[SLOWPOKE693]

why? 4.88 of 4.56 in the diff puts you at and effective 8 and change ratio. how much deeper you want?

Not for getting a deeper overall axle ratio, but to take stress off the joint's, axle shafts, and ring and pinion. A deeper portal ratio also means you can use a higher ring and pinion to achieve the same reduction, which also means a larger pinion gear and more tooth contact (generally). Notice how a lot of the portal buggies are able to get away with 8" Toyota based stuff despite water-filled 42" stickies? That said, a lot of comp rigs are down around 10+:1 overall axle ratio.

2.5:1 and 2.73:1 gears are still out there for 9" axles which would get you down to 4.58:1 with the Weld 74 ratio. Not that the 1.83 in the Weld74 boxes is that far off the 1.92:1 (I believe for 12K gears, but could be wrong), but I would have thought if you were going to go 100% custom, you'd go a little lower if anything. IIRC, 404 stuff is 2.13:1.

Don't forget about the lever arm portals create. Sure, you could stuff 2.5-1 gearing in the boxes and have an awesome crawl ratio but you also end up with an axle that's trying to twist itself off the links or leafs its bolted to. You are not eliminating torque twist with portal boxes, you are just moving it to a different location.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Don't forget about the lever arm portals create. Sure, you could stuff 2.5-1 gearing in the boxes and have an awesome crawl ratio but you also end up with an axle that's trying to twist itself off the links or leafs its bolted to. You are not eliminating torque twist with portal boxes, you are just moving it to a different location.

Assuming the overall reduction ratio stays the same, the reaction force at the links doesn't change. 10:1 with 4:1 R&P and 2.5:1 portals will put the same hurting on the links as 5:1 R&P and 2:1 portals.

 

[Bebop]

Distance to wheel centerline (lever) does change, doesn't it ?

 

['84 Bronco II]

Distance to wheel centerline (lever) does change, doesn't it ?

I was talking about portals vs portals. Maybe I misunderstood Slowpoke's response? I thought he was talking about 2.5:1 gearing vs. the 1.83:1 employed in the Weld74 2 gear boxes.

EDIT: Or are you suggesting that 2.5:1 gearing would require a different centerline spacing than the 1.83:1 gears?

 

[Bebop]

Nope, I'm dumb and thinking about portals vs non portals.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Has anyone tried to get a set of those Chinese portal boxes or axles I've seen mentioned on this site and others?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I was talking about portals vs portals. Maybe I misunderstood Slowpoke's response? I thought he was talking about 2.5:1 gearing vs. the 1.83:1 employed in the Weld74 2 gear boxes.

EDIT: Or are you suggesting that 2.5:1 gearing would require a different centerline spacing than the 1.83:1 gears?

I'm talking about going from 1.5:1 to 2.5:1 without changing anything else like R&P or T-case gearing. Your multiplying torque, no?

 

['84 Bronco II]

I'm talking about going from 1.5:1 to 2.5:1 without changing anything else like R&P or T-case gearing. Your multiplying torque, no?

I am not talking about just slapping a set of portals on an existing axle, but even if that were the discussion, are you saying that you can see an application where changing your final drive ratio 30-100+% without making any other changes would be acceptable?

Short of the Jeep portals that are marketed as being a lift kit and regear in one, I would imagine most people would be changing their ring and pinion ratio accordingly to maintain their targeted final drive ratio.

 

[Sterlingfire]

I'm talking about going from 1.5:1 to 2.5:1 without changing anything else like R&P or T-case gearing. Your multiplying torque, no?

That's the way i read it... seems to me you're right. Torque increase puts more stress on the lever that's created with the portal install.

 

[Sterlingfire]

I am not talking about just slapping a set of portals on an existing axle, but even if that were the discussion, are you saying that you can see an application where changing your final drive ratio 30-100+% without making any other changes would be acceptable?

Short of the Jeep portals that are marketed as being a lift kit and regear in one, I would imagine most people would be changing their ring and pinion ratio accordingly to maintain their targeted final drive ratio.

I think the point is going to be that this is targeted towards being more of a bolt on thing for jeeps more then for the truly custom builder like you or most anyone else on this site. Most bolt on nannies are not going to change the r+p once they bolt the portals on. I mean how many jeep huffers even change r+p when they lift and throw 37's on their stock axles
This is marketed as a bolt on r+p swap with the added advantage of being a lift as well.

 

[Bebop]

I think it's a great solution.

If i had the $ and a JK, I'd rather do a set of portals vs the classic lift kit + one tons

 

[JR4X]

I think it's a great solution.

If i had the $ and a JK, I'd rather do a set of portals vs the classic lift kit + one tons

Same. Now that I understand how it all plays together. Jesse’s portals are psycho tough. And it takes so much strain off of the diff and shafts small stuff becomes strong again. Nobody running Jesse’s axles is having issues with Toyota 8” thirds. I had written those off a lifetime ago for being weak pos’s. And they are, till you half their load right inside the wheel.

Edit. I did see Jesse broke something in his rear axle during the trail breaker but he was on some impossible stuff. Tire under a ledge and giving it full throttle to try to make it go somewhere when there was nowhere to go.

 

[mobil1syn]

Same. Now that I understand how it all plays together. Jesse’s portals are psycho tough. And it takes so much strain off of the diff and shafts small stuff becomes strong again. Nobody running Jesse’s axles is having issues with Toyota 8” thirds. I had written those off a lifetime ago for being weak pos’s. And they are, till you half their load right inside the wheel.

Edit. I did see Jesse broke something in his rear axle during the trail breaker but he was on some impossible stuff. Tire under a ledge and giving it full throttle to try to make it go somewhere when there was nowhere to go.

one thing to mention is they are all going into a fabricated housing which helps as well. jesse was talking about running sami diffs, not sure if anyone has yet.

 

[JBT]

Has anyone tried to get a set of those Chinese portal boxes or axles I've seen mentioned on this site and others?

My friend got a set and there are lots things thats need to be improved, but nothing major except for the 3rd member. They are basically a copy of volvo portals with center section from an early land cruiser with 7:1 R&P. But when you consider what you get and what you pay it's not that bad.


To take advantage of a portal axle one should design the whole axle around the portals. Start with a 8" R&P with a 2.xx ratio so you get a beefy pinion. Then you can use toyota size axle shafts and cv's to keep the cost and weight down. 2 gear portal boxes with at least 2:1 ratio (the more the better), to safe the shafts and R&P. Basically some of the money and weight spent on the portal boxes should be recouped in the upstream components.
If you only go for 30 or 50% gear reduction you have to have 1.5" shaft with massive cv's and a very beefy 3rd member all which costs a lot and is heavy, and the total cost of the axle will be very expensive.

 

[Opiebennett]

one thing to mention is they are all going into a fabricated housing which helps as well. jesse was talking about running sami diffs, not sure if anyone has yet.

Kevin Reimer's buggy runs all Sami stuff upstream of portals.

It's for sale too if your in 'rock buggies' on FB -

 

[Bebop]

My friend got a set and there are lots things thats need to be improved, but nothing major except for the 3rd member. They are basically a copy of volvo portals with center section from an early land cruiser with 7:1 R&P. But when you consider what you get and what you pay it's not that bad.


To take advantage of a portal axle one should design the whole axle around the portals. Start with a 8" R&P with a 2.xx ratio so you get a beefy pinion. Then you can use toyota size axle shafts and cv's

Yota CVs = shitty turning radius though.

 

[Opiebennett]

I think the front engine cars with flipped low pinion 8" 3rds are learning about pinion oiling issues - and I think the 8" R+P is still the weakest link in the axle as some have found.

Jesse markets them as "if you regularly break dana 60 1480 35 spline stuff, these probably aren't for you" sold not as a "stronger than a Dana 60" but as a near peer in overall strength, with some significant advantages.

 

[mobil1syn]

I think the front engine cars with flipped low pinion 8" 3rds are learning about pinion oiling issues - and I think the 8" R+P is still the weakest link in the axle as some have found.

Jesse markets them as "if you regularly break dana 60 1480 35 spline stuff, these probably aren't for you" sold not as a "stronger than a Dana 60" but as a near peer in overall strength, with some significant advantages.

jesse setup is for the slow technical crawler, really has no business in anything else.

if you want to show out, 74weld is you product

 

[JR4X]

one thing to mention is they are all going into a fabricated housing which helps as well. jesse was talking about running sami diffs, not sure if anyone has yet.

Yes, there are two JHF cars with aluminum tracker diffs playing the lightweight game.

Yota CVs = shitty turning radius though.

they aren’t using Toyota CV’s though. They’re using Branik or RCV’s and getting way better turning radius. Jesse is doing something to big RCV’s with little shafts and getting 50° (claiming 50) steering. He’s binding them and making them click to do it but some of his customers followed suit.

 

[mobil1syn]

He’s binding them and making them click to do it but some of his customers followed suit.

codys clicked and it bothered him greatly

 

[JR4X]

codys clicked and it bothered him greatly

If it were me I’d limit them where they didn’t click but Haines doesn’t let it bother him. I cringe watching him but he won the WErock finals in Farmington not by a little, by a lot. He’s definitely doing something right.

 

['84 Bronco II]

There are people breaking the 8" stuff (although it seems to be infrequent), in fact Jesse was asking about Toyota 8.4" stuff recently. I believe that is what he is running in his comp car now, but I could be mistaken. I think Suzuki stuff is asking for trouble unless using it in an ultra light weight build with low power, but even then, I don't know that it would hold up to competition use. Cool to see people doing it though, and I think it would be viable in a rec wheeler.

Looking at the weight of the Toyota stuff vs. 9" (especially with an aluminum 3rd), it just doesn't seem to me that the weight savings is worth it, especially when you are adding water to the tires anyway. It seems that the 9" gets the drive shaft up even higher and has a lot more ratio availability and strength.

EDIT: However, if you could get some really deep portal ratios (2.5-3:1), it would be interesting to see what you could get away with for shafts, joints, and center sections.

 

[mobil1syn]

If it were me I’d limit them where they didn’t click but Haines doesn’t let it bother him. I cringe watching him but he won the WErock finals in Farmington not by a little, by a lot. He’s definitely doing something right.

jesse is still living out of the shop at badlands deep down inside. so unless it doesnt work i dont think it bothers him

 

[mobil1syn]

There are people breaking the 8" stuff (although it seems to be infrequent), in fact Jesse was asking about Toyota 8.4" stuff recently. I believe that is what he is running in his comp car now, but I could be mistaken. I think Suzuki stuff is asking for trouble unless using it in an ultra light weight build with low power, but even then, I don't know that it would hold up to competition use. Cool to see people doing it though, and I think it would be viable in a rec wheeler.

Looking at the weight of the Toyota stuff vs. 9" (especially with an aluminum 3rd), it just doesn't seem to me that the weight savings is worth it, especially when you are adding water to the tires anyway. It seems that the 9" gets the drive shaft up even higher and has a lot more ratio availability and strength.

EDIT: However, if you could get some really deep portal ratios (2.5-3:1), it would be interesting to see what you could get away with for shafts, joints, and center sections.

its not weight, its ground clearance. hes moving fuel cells and other random stuff to the axles to get weight where he wants it.

 

['84 Bronco II]

its not weight, its ground clearance. hes moving fuel cells and other random stuff to the axles to get weight where he wants it.

Definitely part of the equation, but how much smaller is a fabricated Toyota housing than a 9"? I honestly don't know, but I would guess ~.5"? Doesn't seem like diff clearance is really holding the current crop of portal cars back, but maybe that 1/2" or so still makes a difference

 

[Opiebennett]

There are people breaking the 8" stuff (although it seems to be infrequent), in fact Jesse was asking about Toyota 8.4" stuff recently. I believe that is what he is running in his comp car now, but I could be mistaken. I think Suzuki stuff is asking for trouble unless using it in an ultra light weight build with low power, but even then, I don't know that it would hold up to competition use. Cool to see people doing it though, and I think it would be viable in a rec wheeler.

The 8.4 stuff was for his 2 seat car.

 

['84 Bronco II]

The 8.4 stuff was for his 2 seat car.

Interesting. I wonder what the difference in weight between the two are? That would seem to indicate that trail cars might want bigger diffs, but maybe he is just playing around and experimenting.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Interesting, I hadn't seen that. A little more reduction would have been nice though.

1.83:1 isn't enough?

I do agree, the 1.3:1 that's common with bolt on portals, isn't enough. I have a pipe dream to put sxs portals on Sami axles, but would rather have more than 1.3:1

 

[Wilson]

Sweet, I think I’m good!

 

[YotaAtieToo]

There are people breaking the 8" stuff (although it seems to be infrequent), in fact Jesse was asking about Toyota 8.4" stuff recently. I believe that is what he is running in his comp car now, but I could be mistaken. I think Suzuki stuff is asking for trouble unless using it in an ultra light weight build with low power, but even then, I don't know that it would hold up to competition use. Cool to see people doing it though, and I think it would be viable in a rec wheeler.

Looking at the weight of the Toyota stuff vs. 9" (especially with an aluminum 3rd), it just doesn't seem to me that the weight savings is worth it, especially when you are adding water to the tires anyway. It seems that the 9" gets the drive shaft up even higher and has a lot more ratio availability and strength.

EDIT: However, if you could get some really deep portal ratios (2.5-3:1), it would be interesting to see what you could get away with for shafts, joints, and center sections.

Toyota 8" diff is much smaller than a 9".

Although an aluminum 9" diff is probably lighter and obviously almost infinite ratios.

Doesn't the regular 9" arb suck by design?

The zuk aluminum diffs are retarded small and light, I'm talking like 35lbs? Factory 4.62, 4.88 and 5.12s are pretty common, with aftermarket 4.62s and 5.38s available. Then obviously the housing is tiny and light as well.



On a semi related note, I was watching trail breaker and was wondering.....these guys are pushing the absolute limit of what these rigs can do. Would ctis be an advantage? I'd think they're running pretty low pressure with how light they are, but sometimes higher pressure helps with hopping on full throttle climbs, while low pressure is good for crawling. Not sure how it would like water though