Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[YotaAtieToo]

3RZs are being built up over 900 HP for the drag strip and they are claiming a modded, but stock crank, so a realiable 350-400 is possible?

BUT... the 3RZ is an iron block with aluminum head and tip in just under 400 on the scale.

The newer 2TRs are also iron block/alum head. Maybe that's part of the reliability, but maybe we could shave close to 100lbs with an aluminum block?

The Ecotecs are all aluminum and have been built to over 1,000 hp and weigh around 330. BUT, they are an older engine, so missing some of the things that could make more efficient power.

The Caddie CT4 2.7 4cyl is all aluminum: 325 hp @5500 and 380ftlbs @2000-4000 rpm. The best weight I could find was "80 lbs lighter than 4.3".... so maybe around 300lbs?

Dry sump it and pick up an extra 25 hp?

The CT4 also has a 10 spd auto trans.

All goes back to my point of "is it worth it maybe save 100lbs over an aluminum push rod V8?

The tiny little engine and trans the moon buggies guys are using are probably the best bet for actually saving wieght but still making good power.

 

[JohnnyJ]

I think a small engine with 8-10 speed trannyand light t-case would be interesting. The idea of different tires lap tolap is interesting.

 

[mjlogan88]

3RZs are being built up over 900 HP for the drag strip and they are claiming a modded, but stock crank, so a realiable 350-400 is possible?

BUT... the 3RZ is an iron block with aluminum head and tip in just under 400 on the scale.

The newer 2TRs are also iron block/alum head. Maybe that's part of the reliability, but maybe we could shave close to 100lbs with an aluminum block?

The Ecotecs are all aluminum and have been built to over 1,000 hp and weigh around 330. BUT, they are an older engine, so missing some of the things that could make more efficient power.

The Caddie CT4 2.7 4cyl is all aluminum: 325 hp @5500 and 380ftlbs @2000-4000 rpm. The best weight I could find was "80 lbs lighter than 4.3".... so maybe around 300lbs?

Dry sump it and pick up an extra 25 hp?

The CT4 also has a 10 spd auto trans.

3rz is antiquated and heavy

Packaging wise a 60 deg V6 might work better than an inline 4. By the time you hang intake and exhaust manifolds an inline 4 gets pretty wide.

GM and Ford both make pretty decent lightweight V6's these days that are right around an advertised 300hp stock NA

 

[Chkn]

VW VR6 is a small, but powerful engine.



Can take 600 hp on the stock bottom end.

edit - The VR6 looks to be 400lbs or so, heavy, so that's not the solution.

The Ford ecoboost V6s put out decent numbers, but they are 400lbs too.

If money was no object.

 

[bdkw1]

But I’m a VW fan boy, German engineering all day

Fuck you and your trpple square sockets.
I've had both the GTI and the Golf R. They were fun to drive and the motors were awesome. Working on them and reliability suck balls.

 

[JR4X]

The 2.3 ecoboost weighs 311 pounds ready to run. It’s not cheap but 600+ hp is pretty easy out of them. DI and no fancy or complicated plumbing. Easily adapted to any transmission or the 10 speed is meant to be behind it.

 

[Bebop]

So far we've got the tires settled on 37s.

Next up engine.... Which one?

Inline 4 to keep things small and tight or a V-6?

• Gotta hold up to 6 hours of hell.
• How much power?

The 1000cc turbo + DCT form the Maverick R or the Pro R drivetrain.
I'd settle on 350hp which are totally doable for both.

Personally I like the idea of the Mav R better. Smaller and the lack of belts is amazing.

what motors are the rally guys running?

one of those tuned down a bit could be interesting

1600cc with crazy engineering.

Rumor has it Justin Hall is planning on or building an Ifs car. He has more real world racing and competitive crawling experience then 95%+ of the field but is on a working mans budget. It will be interesting to see whay he comes up with.

Ho. He's getting a LMF car. Solid axle.

The easiest engine for us to use in our imaginary build would be a 1000+ cc motorcycle engine. Hayabusa turbo motors for example make stupid power, the transmission is already attached and figuring out reverse shouldn't be hard. Hell, put reverse in the transfer case like my Honda.

Nah. UTV engine is much better if you want to stay around 1000cc

Perhaps the VW 2.0TSI could have potential if someone figures out a transmission for it.

Makes excellent low end torque, 240whp@4500 and 273ft-lbs@1600 with a 6500 redline a stock in a GTI, and people are claiming a “reliable” 400+hp on street driven no prep cars. But it’s the internet so who knows, but it seems that the hard part is keeping the transmissions alive at that point.

Seems like direct injection motors have the best potential to make the most out of a small package engine.

But I’m a VW fan boy, German engineering all day

OMFG I've been saying that for 10 pages now !!!

And they make a lot more power than that.

And why is no one doing HT driveshafts? Seems like that would be a no brainer.

TT guys are.

The 2.3 ecoboost weighs 311 pounds ready to run. It’s not cheap but 600+ hp is pretty easy out of them. DI and no fancy or complicated plumbing. Easily adapted to any transmission or the 10 speed is meant to be behind it.

I agree 100%

 

[Bebop]

Not saying this is the ultimate car, but it would cool to see a pint sized Dragon. Single seater, sitting next to an offset inline 4, narrow chassis. 6+ speed wide spread transmission with a deep ~4:1 first gear and ~0.6 overdrive, single speed transfer case and FIS, or trailing arm solid rear if you must . High reduction portals with lightweight differentials and axle shafts, 37" tires, ~80" wide or less, ~100" WB

agreed 100%.

In my mind :

Pro R engine / trans (which forces you to be RHD)

Proformance front diff

YAMAHA YXZ DANA 30 BILLET DIFF - 850HP RATED

YAMAHA YXZ 1000R REAR BILLET DIFFERENTIAL - Billet Rear Diff Upgrade for Yamaha YXZ Rear Diff - DANA 30 Gears - Billet YXZ Case - YXZ Billet Pinion Support - Yamaha YXZ Billet Case - YXZ Diff Failure -YXZ Rear Differential - YXZ Pinion Failure - Dana 30 Gears - Accepts YXZ and RCV Axless/CV Joints

www.proformance.com.au

Give a lot of money to Weissman or 74Weld and make 3/4th sized 4 gear front portals

Single shocks as much as possible.

Trailing arms rear.

Rear Spidertrax axle with aluminum third member and 35sp gun drilled shafts. (I don't think there are any better options out there).

37" UTV tires.

 

[EXTREMETOWNIE]

What is a HT driveshaft?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

What is a HT driveshaft?

Heat treated.

 

[JR4X]

Heat treated.

What material? 4130?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

What material? 4130?

I assume so.

 

[JR4X]

SLOWPOKE693 and I have mentioned this thing before. I think this gives a visual of what I’m thinking of size wise. The idea is right but the execution wasn’t all there. This was built by Chris Coughlin in Colorado and doesn’t have any fancy parts. Uses stock GM ifs unit bearings all the way around, single 2” coilovers no bypasses. The new owner wrecked it shock tuning. Didn’t latch the quick release steering wheel, it came off in his hands and he yard saled it. DNF’d the main race.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

SLOWPOKE693 and I have mentioned this thing before. I think this gives a visual of what I’m thinking of size wise. The idea is right but the execution wasn’t all there. This was built by Chris Coughlin in Colorado and doesn’t have any fancy parts. Uses stock GM ifs unit bearings all the way around, single 2” coilovers no bypasses. The new owner wrecked it shock tuning. Didn’t latch the quick release steering wheel, it came off in his hands and he yard saled it. DNF’d the main race.

Not sure how I didn't put two and two together on that one. I kept saying to myself the car looked familiar but couldn't place it, thanks for clearing that up for me. I always liked that car and thought it was pretty awesome for a low budget garage built car.

 

[mjlogan88]

The 2.3 ecoboost weighs 311 pounds ready to run. It’s not cheap but 600+ hp is pretty easy out of them. DI and no fancy or complicated plumbing. Easily adapted to any transmission or the 10 speed is meant to be behind it.

DI is the only part of the ecoboost 2.3 that I don't like, at least from an aftermarket ecm standpoint.

I'm sure there are standalones that will run DI, but port injection simplifies things quite a bit.

Something like this might be the ticket Port Injection Kit, EcoBoost

 

[Bebop]

What material? 4130?

or 300M

Branik has been making them forever.

 

[Bebop]

DI is the only part of the ecoboost 2.3 that I don't like, at least from an aftermarket ecm standpoint.

I'm sure there are standalones that will run DI, but port injection simplifies things quite a bit.

Just get an ECU that runs DI, why is it a problem?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Forgot about the QC gears, but damn those things are big and heavy

They are?

Website says 90 lbs, which is lighter than an atlas.

Size wize, I think it's going to be a little larger than most any traditional tcase, but like he said, quick change ratios makes it worth it.

 

[mjlogan88]

Just get an ECU that runs DI, why is it a problem?

Im not sure that it is or isnt a problem. Hell I don't even know what most KOH guys run for ECU's these days. Or what ECU will/wont run DI.

My thoughts were simplification of the fuel system by eliminating the high pressure side

 

[Bebop]

Lots of DI capable ECUs out there

 

[JR4X]

Im not sure that it is or isnt a problem. Hell I don't even know what most KOH guys run for ECU's these days. Or what ECU will/wont run DI.

My thoughts were simplification of the fuel system by eliminating the high pressure side

DI is the key to getting big power out of small displacement engines. Why would you give that up? My little guy is pretty cool. It has knock sensors and self tunes for whatever octane you put in it. It’ll run safely on 87, it just derates itself to do so. If you put 110 in it, it gives itself more timing and more boost, really makes it snappy. The 2000 psi high side doesn’t seem to be an issue, I don’t know why it’d be concerning to you?

 

[Bebop]

DI is the key to getting big power out of small displacement engines. Why would you give that up? My little guy is pretty cool. It has knock sensors and self tunes for whatever octane you put in it. It’ll run safely on 87, it just derates itself to do so. If you put 110 in it, it gives itself more timing and more boost, really makes it snappy. The 2000 psi high side doesn’t seem to be an issue, I don’t know why it’d be concerning to you?

Every diesel out there has been running some form of DI forever.
It's not a problem.

 

[JR4X]

Every diesel out there has been running some form of DI forever.
It's not a problem.

High side FRP is one of the things I can see on my gauge pod. It’s crazy to me the control the ECM has over it. At idle it’s around 325 psi. The second you touch gas pedal it’s up to 1500 psi then 2000 and change at 22 psi boost. Let off the gas and it drops back to 325 and back to up to 2000 in an instant. And it does that on a returnless system.

 

[mjlogan88]

DI is the key to getting big power out of small displacement engines. Why would you give that up? My little guy is pretty cool. It has knock sensors and self tunes for whatever octane you put in it. It’ll run safely on 87, it just derates itself to do so. If you put 110 in it, it gives itself more timing and more boost, really makes it snappy. The 2000 psi high side doesn’t seem to be an issue, I don’t know why it’d be concerning to you?

I'm just a simpleton home gamer a decade or 2 behind the times

My angle is I'd give up a percentage of HP for a reduction in parts count.

My input and experience it pretty irrelevant at the level that this discussion is at. Carry on, great read so far

 

[mobil1syn]

Rumor has it Justin Hall is planning on or building an Ifs car. He has more real world racing and competitive crawling experience then 95%+ of the field but is on a working mans budget. It will be interesting to see whay he comes up with.

Ho. He's getting a LMF car. Solid axle.

Justin is getting the LMF car and the according to wayes via the live stream nick allegri is getting an IFS car. interesting side note allegri is not on the race results.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

interesting side note allegri is not on the race results.

Did he get DQ'd for some reason? I'm 99% certain I saw and heard his name a few times during the live streams.

 

[Tech Tim]

DI is the key to getting big power out of small displacement engines. Why would you give that up? My little guy is pretty cool. It has knock sensors and self tunes for whatever octane you put in it. It’ll run safely on 87, it just derates itself to do so. If you put 110 in it, it gives itself more timing and more boost, really makes it snappy. The 2000 psi high side doesn’t seem to be an issue, I don’t know why it’d be concerning to you?

John, are you still running the OE ECU or aftermarket?

 

[Tech Tim]

OMFG I've been saying that for 10 pages now !!!

No, you haven't, you mentioned VW engines once, maybe twice?

So spell it out for us non-German speaking fools..... What is your choice for engine and why?

How much power can you get without going nuts on $$$?
How reliable are they at that level?
What is the weight?

 

[Tech Tim]

If money was no object.

$15K USD for the engine block alone!

Unfortunately it is a dry block, designed for drag racing, so it wouldn't work for what we do very well.

 

[Bebop]

How much power can you get without going nuts on $$$?

Define this please.
What is a "going nuts" $$$ figure ?

I'm talking engine + control system.