Enduro/trail/hare scramble bikes

[willis_racing]

They're still available, but they're trying to make them basically miserable to own. Red sticker bs.

It was my understanding that they're just straight up banning the3 sale of new red sticker OHVs for '22+, but you would know more about it than me.

Doesn't mean they aren't missing out on sales because of it. I can speak for every part of the country, but almost every bike I see out in the wild or in a truck is a euro bike or older jap bike.

Yeah KTM definitely has the offroad market cornered, there's no denying that. I do think that all of the jap manufacturers that are worth shit making offroad and cross country oriented models is proof that we're at least a demographic they're willing to step into, but with the caveat that most of them have been out of the smoker game for long enough that the R&D dollars would be pretty hard to justify.

Obviously yamaha has seen the sales potential and at least made an attempt with the YZ250X. Although it's not all that comparable to the Europeans are offering.

With how many of those things they sell, I'd like the think the 250x was a market primer and they have something better coming down the pipeline, but I also know factory Yamaha to be incredibly stubborn, so who knows.

 

[CarterKraft]

We're going to have to disagree but I think they thought their plan was succesful to move away from 2T bikes to the expensive disposable 4t variants.

KTM made their 2T electric start 14 years ago...
Fuel injection and counter balancing 5+ years ago.
I am a fan of KTM but I like Jap bikes too, the lack of development shows though and is insulting to the customer base.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

It was my understanding that they're just straight up banning the3 sale of new red sticker OHVs for '22+, but you would know more about it than me.

You may be right, I don't really know or care

Yeah KTM definitely has the offroad market cornered, there's no denying that. I do think that all of the jap manufacturers that are worth shit making offroad and cross country oriented models is proof that we're at least a demographic they're willing to step into, but with the caveat that most of them have been out of the smoker game for long enough that the R&D dollars would be pretty hard to justify.

I thought about that also. Honda or Kawk would almost have to start from scratch. But kinda not really. The YZ hasn't changed much, I don't see why the others couldn't base a new model off the old stuff.

With how many of those things they sell, I'd like the think the 250x was a market primer and they have something better coming down the pipeline, but I also know factory Yamaha to be incredibly stubborn, so who knows.

I'd be pretty surprised if yamaha came out with say a 300 xcw competitor, although I hope I'm wrong.

They basically started the sport sxs market, yet let Polaris pass them so damn far before releasing the yxz. Then now still refuse to offer a factory turbo, 4 seat or a better suspension to compete with can am and Polaris.

We're going to have to disagree but I think they thought their plan was succesful to move away from 2T bikes to the expensive disposable 4t variants.

It's possible, although I think the people buying new bikes all the time aren't going to vary much if it's 2t or 4t.

KTM made their 2T electric start 14 years ago...
Fuel injection and counter balancing 5+ years ago.
I am a fan of KTM but I like Jap bikes too, the lack of development shows though and is insulting to the customer base.

I would prefer a yz300xw or whatever over the ktm. The jap stuff just seems that much more bulletproof, although that may be in my head.

The thing with the japs, is they don't usually throw stuff out without it being absolutely proven. The ktm electric start 2 strokes is an example. From the first ~8 years of it sucked, and a lot of people just pull it off anyway.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Side note:

Am I the only one who would love a modern chassis with a ~300-400cc air-cooled 4stroke engine? ~35 hp is probably plenty. I feel like not having coolant and radiators might make it similar weight to a liquid cooled 2 stroke, but maybe I'm way off.

 

[CarterKraft]

Side note:

Am I the only one who would love a modern chassis with a ~300-400cc air-cooled 4stroke engine? ~35 hp is probably plenty. I feel like not having coolant and radiators might make it similar weight to a liquid cooled 2 stroke, but maybe I'm way off.

I used to think that way but really I probably wouldn't want it ultimately.
Heavy and low power is not a good combo.
My dad always rode XR250's so it was easy to compare.

I got really close to buying a GPX one time, just couldn't get past my china bike experience.

GPX Moto - 50cc-450cc Dirt Bikes

50cc-450cc Dirt bikes, GPX Moto's off-road dirt bikes are built for quality, performance, and affordability, Dealers welcome. Since 2003.

gpxmoto.com

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I used to think that way but really I probably wouldn't want it ultimately.
Heavy and low power is not a good combo.
My dad always rode XR250's so it was easy to compare.

I got really close to buying a GPX one time, just couldn't get past my china bike experience.

GPX Moto - 50cc-450cc Dirt Bikes

50cc-450cc Dirt bikes, GPX Moto's off-road dirt bikes are built for quality, performance, and affordability, Dealers welcome. Since 2003.

gpxmoto.com

Is an air cooled 4t really that heavy? I always figured that it was just in a chassis that they weren't trying to make light at all.

Edit: that site says 241 for the air cooled 250 4t and 242 for the water cooled 300 2t.

About 15 lbs heavier than a 300 ktm.


Also, that site is very interesting, they seem to be pretty serious about competing with real bikes.

 

[willis_racing]

We're going to have to disagree but I think they thought their plan was succesful to move away from 2T bikes to the expensive disposable 4t variants.

I don't really see new 4 strokes as any more or less disposable than dirt bikes have ever been. They can run for well over 300 hours with little to no big maintenance and even if you do decide to do a top end, it's $250. I legitimately have no idea where all the mechanical hate for 4 strokes comes from, they are amazing machines.

KTM made their 2T electric start 14 years ago...
Fuel injection and counter balancing 5+ years ago.
I am a fan of KTM but I like Jap bikes too, the lack of development shows though and is insulting to the customer base.

I think most of that is just Jap businessmen being kooky jap businessmen.
That said, the idea of development in our sport is very strange. The technology still considered to this day to be the objectively best in suspension components remains relatively unchanged since like 2008, and the bike that runs those is competitive at the highest level despite being like 20lbs heavier than the KTM.
"Motorcycre not broken, simpry ride better"-Jap engineers probably

Side note:

Am I the only one who would love a modern chassis with a ~300-400cc air-cooled 4stroke engine? ~35 hp is probably plenty. I feel like not having coolant and radiators might make it similar weight to a liquid cooled 2 stroke, but maybe I'm way off.

You're probably not the only one, but I'm definitely not gonna stand on the back of that bus

Seeing how far modern technology and design can go into making a true high performance air cooled engine would certainly be interesting, I just figure if that idea were possible we would have seen more of it by now. without liquid cooling you're adding a ton of metal around the cylinder and head, and a bunch of provisions and capacity to support oil cooling.

 

[willis_racing]

Is an air cooled 4t really that heavy? I always figured that it was just in a chassis that they weren't trying to make light at all.

The only specific example that I know off the top of my head is the engine in my ATC350x. That bastard weighs like 92lbs on its own. That's just shy of half the overall weight of both my dirt bikes.

 

[CarterKraft]

Is an air cooled 4t really that heavy? I always figured that it was just in a chassis that they weren't trying to make light at all.

Edit: that site says 241 for the air cooled 250 4t and 242 for the water cooled 300 2t.

About 15 lbs heavier than a 300 ktm.


Also, that site is very interesting, they seem to be pretty serious about competing with real bikes.

I think they are and at the weight penalty the performance inherent to them doesn't help.

I agree with your sentiments believe me. I have dreamed of a light weight low power trail bike.
The truth is outside of my use case it has little value from a business perspective on the corporate stage.
GPX used to have 200cc 2T bike with a "enduro" engine package, a low RPM dinger derived from some chinese moped.
I bet that bike was awesome for what I wanted.

There was a guy on ADV that built a YZ? with a blaster 200 air head. A Pretty sweet trail bike I bet.

Built a WR200, because I didn't know they existed

Midway through building a desert bike, I had an idea get into my head, and it wouldn't get out. It was a woods bike. A modern chassis with a small...

www.advrider.com

 

[CarterKraft]

When I got back into riding in 2010? I got a buddies old cross country race prepped '95 WR250z.
It was a great bike for what I was doing, following my son/daughter on pit bikes 60's etc.
When I wanted to upgrade due to parts availability etc. I started looking for 200 KTM.
That same buddy had been on a 300 XCW for several years at that point with 450EXC for the bigger DS type rides.
He said fuck that 200 and get a 300. I bucked it and bucked but he finally produced this bike for sale at a 2 good price so I bought it.
He wasn't wrong. I don't regret the 300 at all and at altitude (10K+) I am really glad for extra CC's.

No point to this rambling... but at this point I have no use for a de-tuned version of this bike.

 

[Squamch]

Any thoughts on the ktm 150s?

 

[willis_racing]

Any thoughts on the ktm 150s?

My only time on one was pit riding it back to my truck for a buddy at a race. Has about the same bottom end feel as a 125 (so nothing) but They get glowing reviews constantly. I hear they're quite the zingers when you rev them out.

One thing I will say is that they feel like bicycles weight-wise. They are absolutely lighter than you can believe. Make good chick bikes if your woman has long enough legs.

 

[CarterKraft]

My only time on one was pit riding it back to my truck for a buddy at a race. Has about the same bottom end feel as a 125 (so nothing) but They get glowing reviews constantly. I hear they're quite the zingers when you rev them out.

One thing I will say is that they feel like bicycles weight-wise. They are absolutely lighter than you can believe. Make good chick bikes if your woman has long enough legs.

That's my summary
Have to be ridden mad.
very "light" feeling

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Haven't read everything, but that gpx moto 250 is not much heavier than the new 250 and 300 2t.

Fwiw, that gpx company is interesting. I like the small frame 250 4t that still has fullsize wheels as an option. Could be a great wife bike.

 

[willis_racing]

Haven't read everything, but that gpx moto 250 is not much heavier than the new 250 and 300 2t.

Fwiw, that gpx company is interesting. I like the small frame 250 4t that still has fullsize wheels as an option. Could be a great wife bike.

The GPX bikes are tending to get pretty positive independent reviews too. If I was made of money I'd definitely pick up a fleet of them just to say I did

 

[CarterKraft]

Haven't read everything, but that gpx moto 250 is not much heavier than the new 250 and 300 2t.

Fwiw, that gpx company is interesting. I like the small frame 250 4t that still has fullsize wheels as an option. Could be a great wife bike.

There was a bunch of threads on ADV about them and the predecessor Pitster Pro (I think).

 

[YotaAtieToo]

My buddy who bought the gas gas almost bought a ~185 ssr bike. Basically a crf150f sized bike, but with way more power, better suspension and rear disc.

The dealer talked him out of the $2200 bike and into the $11k bike, weird

My wife has a crf150f and it's just so much fun, great size and just enough power. Something just a bit bigger that doesn't weigh a ton and has decent suspension would be great imo.

 

[KrustyTJ]

Squamch I'd skip the used bike market the way things are in my area and just put down a deposit on a new YZ250 2 smoker for next season run what ya got this year and enjoy a new bike next season

 

[Squamch]

Squamch I'd skip the used bike market the way things are in my area and just put down a deposit on a new YZ250 2 smoker for next season run what ya got this year and enjoy a new bike next season

I've ridden with one guy on a mew jap bike...and he wasn't having a good time. I don't think they're the ticket around here. Everyone rides a euro bike.

This is my buddy Red, who's a much better rider than me, on some of the faster, more open, local trails.

 

[willis_racing]

I've ridden with one guy on a mew jap bike...and he wasn't having a good time. I don't think they're the ticket around here. Everyone rides a euro bike.

This is my buddy Red, who's a much better rider than me, on some of the faster, more open, local trails.

God DAMN that looks fun.

I gotta go grab helmet cams of some of my desert tough stuff here in the next few months. Trail video swap thread?

 

[Squamch]

God DAMN that looks fun.

I gotta go grab helmet cams of some of my desert tough stuff here in the next few months. Trail video swap thread?

If you have hipstergram it's well worth following him. He lives about 1 minute from the trails and rides constantly.

 

[KrustyTJ]

That's a decent pace he had there different scenery for sure. There is a big single track trail here (MCCCT) and some other smaller ones in the orv trail system here. We mostly run the wide open trails sandy with berms and woops with wide open spots here and there. I've rode the single track a few times just seems to slow for me.

 

[Squamch]

That's a decent pace he had there different scenery for sure. There is a big single track trail here (MCCCT) and some other smaller ones in the orv trail system here. We mostly run the wide open trails sandy with berms and woops with wide open spots here and there. I've rode the single track a few times just seems to slow for me.

The riding crew that I've foolishly associated myself with likes to go to trials spots...I can honestly feel the progression in my riding day to day riding with them. Slow is fun too for me.