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Dual External Fuel Pump Plumbing for 4400?

ZSAVAGE81

ZSAVAGE81

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Feb 9, 2021
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OK as the title suggests, I'm trying to plan out my fuel line plumbing for my 4400 car build using dual Aeromotive A1000 fuel pumps on a 32gal Jaz Jeepspeed fuel cell going to a 6.2L LS3. I'm using a Holley Hydramat 16-110 for fuel pick-up along with the recommended pre and post filters recommended by aeromotive and their regulator. U4 Rules state I need shutoff's and I know I need check valves (to both keep the pumps primed and so the one pump doesn't push back through the other). The plan is for only 1 pump to run at a time and only turn the other on in the event of a failure somewhere. So, where would you put the shutoff's? Where and how many check valves? Where to split pick-ups and where to bring them back together? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts or even better see some schematics!

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Just install a rocker switch that takes input power and chooses which pump it goes to. Put your shutoff wherever you normally would.

Run separate pickups, socks and (maybe) filters and tee together between the filters and the rail line, or before the filter if you want to only run a single filter.

OEMs ran dual tank systems. No reason to reinvent the wheel.
 
I need something like this but showing 2 pumps and where the check valves need to go.

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From everything I read these pumps easily lose prime so there has to be a way to place check valves to prevent that while also preventing the one pump from trying to push fuel back through the other.

I think I have the electrical sorted, more trying to figure out the best way to plumb.
 
I believe these have a internal check valve. Or at least i ran a dual pump set up ( one primary, and one back up) without a check vale . It worked for me. I could use some help also. I am trying to put a A1000 in the tank . I got the hydromat , but i can not find a -10 submersible tube or hose and the fittings. Anyone know where to find that type of line?
 
From the pictures there and following how they have them plumbed, I would probably come out of the tank, through a tee/wye (like the 15674), through a check valve and a filter to each pump, then out through a filter and another tee/wye, then into your fuel rail.

That way (hopefully) if you plug a filter you can switch to the other pump and the 2ndary filter should catch any crud if the pump dies.

If you are not concerned with a bad pump leaking externally, or if your pumps have a check valve on the output, you could get rid of the 2nd check valve, but with 2 check valves you should (hopefully) not lose fuel even if a pump is removed.

Aaron Z
 
EXTREMETOWNIE said:
I believe these have a internal check valve. Or at least i ran a dual pump set up ( one primary, and one back up) without a check vale . It worked for me. I could use some help also. I am trying to put a A1000 in the tank . I got the hydromat , but i can not find a -10 submersible tube or hose and the fittings. Anyone know where to find that type of line?
Click to expand...

Here's what Holley recomends for the hydramat:

Earl's LS0010ERL Earl's Fuel Cell Plumbing Kit - Road Course

This kit includes the parts needed to plumb the HydraMat inside the fuel cell for use in ARCA Road Course Racing: (2) 3/4" Stat-O-Seals (2) 7/8" Stat-O-Seals (1) Pre-Made Supply Hose (1) pre-Made Return Hose (1) 8 AN Straight Bulkhead Fitting (1) 10 AN Straight Bulkhead Fitting (1) 8 AN Bulkhead...
www.holley.com www.holley.com

Hydramat Fuel Line Kit

I had Jaz flip my fill plate to the opposite side from a normal jeepspeed cell so that I could wedge a spare tire up over the tank without the filler being in the way so I've gotta do something weird to get the fuel from the deepest part of the tank over to the other side. I'm thinking about using hard line that you bend and flair like brake line and put AN fittings on. Feel like that would assist the magnets in holding the hydramat where it needs to be!

www.racetronix.biz

Aluminum Tube, 6061-T6 5/8

Purchase Aluminum Tube, 6061-T6 5/8
www.racetronix.biz www.racetronix.biz

Aluminum Fuel Line

Alum Line AN Fitting
 
In my bouncer, i had 2 pumps ( primary and one just in case) and i plumbed both with the filter like above. Then i ran both into the regulator and one to the return and the other -8 to the fuel rails. No check valves . It worked with twin turbos and put down 876 to the rear tires with 86 lb injectors.
 
are you running an aluminum pick up or soft hose?
 
I have a drawer of the stuff you need, new. No use
 
ZSAVAGE81 said:
What you want for it?

I don’t know what I’m running from the hydramat to the fill plate yet. Was considering a hard line to help keep the hydramat where it goes.
Click to expand...
Soft lines are known to fall off. Run hard line.

Shipping plus 1 beer.
 
  • pumps are made to push, not pull
  • get them in the tank where they belong
  • pump needs to be sized correctly for the motor, excess pumping is excess heat which causes problems especially in an external pump shituation. (i suspect you are overpumped with the 1000s)
  • make sure your vent is filtered, for every gallon of dinosaurs that go out the tank, a gallon of dirty air goes in

if you are committed to the a1000s. no rubber line in the fuel cell. i am a huge fan of stainless hardline from the rear of the chassis to the firewall, short jumper to the fuel rail.

'soft' options, if you decide against stainless

811 PTFE Lined Stainless Steel Braided Racing Hose - Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

Goodridge 811 is a flexible, lightweight stainless braided hose developed for pro racing. The PTFE liner is compatible with all fluids and resists fuel vapor penetration.
www.pegasusautoracing.com www.pegasusautoracing.com

cj-motorsports.com

PTFE Tube, Submersible

cj-motorsports.com

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wire it this way, do your due diligence to unsure the voltage drop isnt too much
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why not the checks on the otherside like before the shutoff and even in the tank? Keeps the fuel from draining back out of the pump?
 
mobil1syn said:
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Do this with the pumps in the fucking tank like god intended and you can ditch the extraneous line, the shutoff valves, not worry about all the extra leak points you introduced and not have to find a spot in the chassis to package the pumps.
 
This whole thread is a lesson in how to over complicate things lol
 
Bebop said:
This whole thread is a lesson in how to over complicate things lol
Click to expand...
No. I was in the same place trying to package 2 exterior pumps. Protect them. Easy to use.

Use AN Y’s, not T’s. The T’s seemed like it would create unnecessary resistance.

OP. I ended up with manual shut offs and not a dual system plumbed relying on check valves. So you’d have to get out, turn 2 valves to swap but your getting out anyway. One of the main reasons is that if I was losing fuel pressure, it’s time to check for a leak Before becoming a ball of fire. When your fuel pressure drops, it’s leak, filter, broken pump, wiring, internal tank issue(soft hose pickup fell off and is laying in tank). You can virtually eliminate the fuel filter from being and issue if you run a canister.

I used this system after reading about multiple check valve failures.

4400 races are sprints, so when you stop to go leak check, your off the podium anyway. Might as well turn 2 knobs.

I’ve been in fire bad multiple times. So maybe you won’t get out to leak check as step 1.
 
Poke said:
I was in the same place trying to package 2 exterior pumps. Protect them. Easy to use.
Click to expand...
Exterior pumps are dumb.
Tons more plumbing, more exposed to exterior agressions (duhhh), proven to fail more often, etc etc.

Put the pumps inside the tank and one piece hard line everything.
 
I am currently fighting to put the pumps in the tank, it is a pain in the ass but i is what you are supposed to do. In my bouncer i had the pump external, but i drill to hole in the bottom of my fuel cell and put the bulkheads there. The pumps where always flooded unless i shut the manual valves. No room for that setup in a 440o car.
 
Bebop said:
Exterior pumps are dumb.
Tons more plumbing, more exposed to exterior agressions (duhhh), proven to fail more often, etc etc.

Put the pumps inside the tank and one piece hard line everything.
Click to expand...

How many off road exterior racing pumps and set ups have you yourself had issues with on your race cars?

This thread was specifically asking about external pumps. I’ve never had an issue, leak or failure in years of abuse and use. So to me, inaccessibility is dumb. But if you have lost pumps or had external pump issues
then your opinion would be the opposite.

There is what the experts say, best practices, what the engineers say, and what will work best for you. So which option is best for you?
 
Multiple external pump failures. A1000s specifically. Switched to internal Weldons and problems went away.
Same car won a few Ultra4 Europe races and is the back to back 2021/2022 WTI champ.

On my personal car I ran an internal pump from the get go and am still on the same unit 3 years later.

Also have had the same experience on multiple trail cars and helped a well known buggy manufacturer to switch to internal pumps and solve fueling issues.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Do this with the pumps in the fucking tank like god intended and you can ditch the extraneous line, the shutoff valves, not worry about all the extra leak points you introduced and not have to find a spot in the chassis to package the pumps.
Click to expand...

Ultra4 rule book requires shut-offs.
 
Top TT team :

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Add shutoffs at the pump outlet.
 
Bebop said:
Multiple external pump failures. A1000s specifically. Switched to internal Weldons and problems went away.
Same car won a few Ultra4 Europe races and is the back to back 2021/2022 WTI champ.

On my personal car I ran an internal pump from the get go and am still on the same unit 3 years later.

Also have had the same experience on multiple trail cars and helped a well known buggy manufacturer to switch to internal pumps and solve fueling issues.
Click to expand...

And mine has been the complete opposite. External pump on my trail rig for the last 7 years and no problems. Numerous external pumps on truck that race our local baja series and no issues either. Local shop also runs external pumps on all of their buggies and I can't recall the last time there was any pump issues.

I would prefer an in tank pump setup but doesn't always happen.

I do agree with no over complicating it though.
 
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