debate time - mountain lion deterrent

[Weasel]

So a dumb debate having with a buddy. He's weirdly freaked out Mt Lions when out tromping around the woods. He wants a gun to carry to scare one off. Not really a gun guy and he thinks a 9mm is way too big.

He was in a gun store the other day looking at LRC revolver. He likes it cause he can carry it in his pocket and it's small.

I think it's a bad/poor idea, but here goes the really dumb part imo.

He says they come in 2 calibers that he's interested in. 38 and 22. He's thinking the 22 cause it will hold 9 rounds vs 5 rounds for the 38.
He's thinking the 22 will share off a cat and if it doesn't he has more rounds to shoot it with.

I say the he needs a 38 or 9mm. But he thinks the 22 is loud enough to scare off a cat. I told him that the 22 won't stop a Cat if it does attack and says that if he hits it that will scare it off.

Nuts thing is the gun shop agrees with him. I think they are both nuts.

If a cat is curious about you I don't think you'll see it and if it is semi-stalking the noise from a 22 isn't gonna do squat. If a Cat is attacking or on a serious stalk 22 won't stop it without being very good with shot placement and practice. Of which he's and his girlfriend are not going to do.

I said he should carry a big stick or a bag of rocks and would have better luck

So what says irate?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Just give him bear spray

If he's out alone and a cat wants to take him down, he will never see it coming anyway.

 

[Weasel]

I suggested that as well and or an air horn.

 

[aron82]

Ar pistol in a drop leg holster. It's a 22 and he can have whatever size magazine he's willing to lug around.

Sounds like he has already made up his mind and while a micro 9 or snub nose revolver would be a better choice he won't see it.
At least tell him to get good quality 22 ammo. I think that they are even making some now specifically for ccw..

 

[total newb]

I sure as hell wouldnt want a 22 as a cat deterant. Im not scared of them per say and im not a "gun guy" either.

I would say a 9mm is the bare minimum.

Theres a lot of very small 9mm that still carry 10r. My buddy had a very small h&k 9mm i really liked (back around 2000ish) and it fit my chubby hands very well.

 

[_03_]

Stared down a mountain lion at 40' years ago, then he stalked a buddy for about 2 miles.

10mm in a chest rig is the minimum.

 

[FrankenToy]

Rule is: Carry as much gun as you can handle.

.22 or .38 is better than nothing, and it may provide for an amusing epitaph on his headstone.

 

[Texas97]

uhhh... 5.7 in a non-AR pistol with Hornady V-max bullets?

 

[Steve300xcw]

Hound hunters have shot alotta stuff out of trees with small caliber guns.

That said a 22 isnt my idea of a defense gun.

Your buddy needs to go shoot a couple of those lil pistols before he buys one. Might surprise him

 

[Yotota]

He should buy the 22lr LCR. Then take him shooting with it a bunch. He'll get hooked, buy the .38sp LCR, and maybe a 9mm LCR, and then more guns.

Chess, not checkers.



I want a 22lr LCR just for shits. It would be a good raccoon dropper. And realistically nothing he carries will ever get used against a cougar, because like others said the odds of ending up needing a gun are slim to none with a big cat. But if it gets him out in the woods it's a net win.

Worst case scenario, he doesn't like the icky scary gun and one of us buys it for $100.

 

[WaterH]

For his scenario, I think the air horn would be best. If he’s determined to use a gun, 9 mm or bigger. The 22 will kill it, but not fast enough.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

uhhh... 5.7 in a non-AR pistol with Hornady V-max bullets?

5.7 actually isn't a bad idea.

 

[Texas97]

5.7 actually isn't a bad idea.

Agreed. It's actually a great idea.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Agreed. It's actually a great idea.

I've wondered how they would do against bear. I hear that you want penetration through the skull. A bunch of Small fast traveling rounds seem like they could be better than a few giant rounds that are hard to squeeze off quickly and accurately.

 

[Texas97]

I've wondered how they would do against bear. I hear that you want penetration through the skull. A bunch of Small fast traveling rounds seem like they could be better than a few giant rounds that are hard to squeeze off quickly and accurately.

i think the FN 5.7 can defeat most all soft body armor, atleast they used to. i guess it would depend on the round you are using. obviously, through a pistol you lose some velocity, but there's no way a bear skull would be able to stop 5.7 rounds within 40-50 feet.

2,000 feet per second would do the trick, i think.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

i think the FN 5.7 can defeat most all soft body armor, atleast they used to. i guess it would depend on the round you are using. obviously, through a pistol you lose some velocity, but there's no way a bear skull would be able to stop 5.7 rounds within 40-50 feet.

2,000 feet per second would do the trick, i think.

I'm sure one well placed 44mag or better would probably be more effective. But being able to fire off 5 or 10 follow up shots sure would up your odds of hitting something vital.

I'd like to pick up a 10mm for a woods pistol though.

 

[Splib]

Fish and Game in Idaho Grizz Country carry 10mm Glock with Underwood Ammo I think. For the kiiteh the 9mm is simple and ammo is plentiful and cheap. The 5.7 would seem to work very well on the cat, if you got it in time. Would vetilate the shit out of it with almost any ammo including varmit type shit. Sadly enough I have second hand info regarding a fatal kitteh attack back in the 90's CA. In that instance with a fit athletic woman the cat was unable to make a quick kill and the death occurred only after about 40 feet of ground showed sign of struggle and the victim and numerous bites on forearms and shoulders. So..... maybe a Trevon Martin chance to pop a single round off with a KelTek or similar. Wont ever know. There is at least one video of a guy who is stalked then attacked. Uh, there's two videos. In one he scares kitteh off with a near miss and in another one he kills it with a head shot at about 8 feet distance. Both 9mm IIRC. Odds are better than not your first sign of danger is a 130 lb cat in your face grabbing with the claws from behind. Having a dog is arguably the best dectection/alternate target scenario. In India the Preserve professionals take donkey with them when in les tigres habitat.

 

[Weasel]

He's not a non-gun guy he's just fixed on the size of everything. He's shot all my psitols, AR, AK and whatever else. Not a great shot but he says the 9mm are to big. I honestly don't get it and haven't been able to figure out how to talk him into or out of the size of it. And some of the recoil as well but that's on normal mid framed guns.

And he pretty much lives in the woods his entire life. Hiking, dirt bikes, crawlers. I don't know what it is about Cats that as him so spooked.

His biggest point is he thinks the noise from a 22 will scare off a cat. He does have a GSP that goes with them everywhere but afraid dog is gonna get attacked.

 

[Splib]

.22 in a revolver is loud, especially outdoors to kitteh. 9 or a 357 is louder

 

[Texas97]

.22 in a revolver is loud, especially outdoors to kitteh. 9 or a 357 is louder

22 revolver is Loud to the shooter, yes.

Not so much down range.

 

[rockmup]

He's not a non-gun guy he's just fixed on the size of everything. He's shot all my psitols, AR, AK and whatever else. Not a great shot but he says the 9mm are to big. I honestly don't get it and haven't been able to figure out how to talk him into or out of the size of it. And some of the recoil as well but that's on normal mid framed guns.

And he pretty much lives in the woods his entire life. Hiking, dirt bikes, crawlers. I don't know what it is about Cats that as him so spooked.

His biggest point is he thinks the noise from a 22 will scare off a cat. He does have a GSP that goes with them everywhere but afraid dog is gonna get attacked.

Bear spray

Cats don't care about noise much if their plan is to have you for dinner.

 

[Steve300xcw]

I want a 22lr LCR just for shits. It would be a good raccoon dropper.

My favorite little 22 pistol was a walther p22. Jammed on everything except mini-mags. But man that thing killed alot of grouse. Perfect size for your back pocket

 

[Roc Doc]

Have any of you seen a Mountain Lion in the wild? I've seen tracks and scat but never an actual lion, and I've been in lion country since I was in Boy Scouts. We have quite a few Bobcat around here and they are not so shy and are seen on a pretty regular basis.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Have seen a handfull of cougars while out farting around the woods. Have stumbled onto more bears than anything.

Made a bad shot with a 22 on a bobcat years back. Was amazed how fast that thing turned into a blur. Did not know an animal could move that fast. Took alot more shots before I hit that thing again

 

[Aisin]

The problem with 5.7 is most of it isn’t loaded to 5.7 spec. You gotta spend the money and get the FN bullets for it.

 

[total newb]

Have any of you seen a Mountain Lion in the wild? I've seen tracks and scat but never an actual lion, and I've been in lion country since I was in Boy Scouts. We have quite a few Bobcat around here and they are not so shy and are seen on a pretty regular basis.

Not in a wild enviroment. Ive seen a couple from my truck around the nieghborhood and the nieghbor has pics from his porch camera.

Im more worried about bears and the dogs. If it came to a cat im not going it see it coming and already fully fucked but i feel like i could fight it enough for it to leave.

300lb bear? I dont feel like i could physicaly harm it enough to deter it.

 

[rockmup]

Have any of you seen a Mountain Lion in the wild? I've seen tracks and scat but never an actual lion, and I've been in lion country since I was in Boy Scouts. We have quite a few Bobcat around here and they are not so shy and are seen on a pretty regular basis.

I have several times. The first was in the Clear Creek area in the late 70's. I've seen them by UCSC and in Nisene Marks state park.
I came down a ridge once and was within 50' of a mom and 2 cubs that were hanging out on the lower limb of an oak tree in Los Padres. I wouldn't have seen them except they made a noise, I was hunting pigs and not looking up. She never moved and I dropped off into the bottom.

 

[Roc Doc]

Woman I used to work with told the story of her husband taking their 9 and 11yo kids MTB'ng up at Brianhead UT, and the guys in the bike shop recommended this trail because it was mostly downhill. Well I've ridden that trail and it is not for beginners, and 6 hours into the ride, between crying and getting the little girl calmed down, her brother tapped dad on the shoulder to point out a lion in a nearby tree intently watching them. Dad got everyone safely down to Parowan, but it was a miserable day, but not as miserable of a day the guys in the bike shop had the next day. There is no way, inexperienced kids should have been on that trail.

 

[_03_]

Have any of you seen a Mountain Lion in the wild? I've seen tracks and scat but never an actual lion, and I've been in lion country since I was in Boy Scouts. We have quite a few Bobcat around here and they are not so shy and are seen on a pretty regular basis.

As I posted earlier in the thread, yes. It was a Tom in his prime and he could have been on me in the blink of an eye. I was both awe struck at his build and how insignificant I was in the setting. At that distance, no small caliber will stop an attack fast enough. It is one thing to kill a stationary predator and another when it's running at you.

 

[Splib]

I saw one in the head lights warming itself on the pavement at night on Hwy 32 coming home from a bar at Butte Meadows, CA. It was gone in a single bound over the guard rail. Had another one noisily approach through dry forest litter as I was passed out Nakee on the porch under a blanket. Third time one was set up to eat our dog but I never saw it.

They are thick at the place in Idaho and I came upon a fresh, real fresh kill last trip. Four known deer kills in the last 3 years within 1 mile of the house that I know of, certainly more that are unseen. Eagle attacked a Mule Deer there a few years back. Shit's rough there

Neighbors treed one with a single hound that was watching the kids at the school play yard last year. SSS To the OP I would say recommend your friend take his dog and get the 9mm pistol. Absolutely get the pistol.