Current state of winches?

[Wilson]

Worth every penny though right? It’s not like a brand new one is much better than one from 1975 that’s in good shape. If the electric motor burns up put the newer version on and you’ve basically got the new winch. My 8274 is a 1975. I think I’ve replaced two solenoids and that’s it.

Absolutely, still better at that buy-in than the Chinese options. The rebuild of my last 8274 came after a hellacious winching session. I dead-pulled a 7000 lb Toyota up the nastiest local rock trail. It killed the winch motor, my alternator and odyssey battery, by the time it was said and done.

 

[RTH]

The tough part is the initial cost of the used 8274. At $4-600 throughout WA state some people would rather buy the badlands whatever cause it's "new". I guess it's just like anything out there, you gotta know what your buying is worth the money and I personally believe 8274's as long as they're in decent condition they are definitely worth it. All that said, I have wondered this same question with all the new gear out there. All sorts of new winch brands that I've never heard of or seen before. Market seems pretty flooded with amazon and whatever other brands people are spending their money on....

 

[Mattafact]

The APEX from HF is virtually the same as Warns XP or so I'm told. It can be had for under 500 pretty often.

https://www.harborfreight.com/apex-synthetic-12000-lb-wireless-winch-56385.html

I have that on the front on my 100 series and the fit and finish is very nice. Looks just like my Warn 9.5TI. I've only used it once and it winched like I asked it to.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

The tough part is the initial cost of the used 8274. At $4-600 throughout WA state some people would rather buy the badlands whatever cause it's "new". I guess it's just like anything out there, you gotta know what your buying is worth the money and I personally believe 8274's as long as they're in decent condition they are definitely worth it. All that said, I have wondered this same question with all the new gear out there. All sorts of new winch brands that I've never heard of or seen before. Market seems pretty flooded with amazon and whatever other brands people are spending their money on....

That and it doesn't just bolt on to any winch bumper.

 

[PAE]

Looks like a cylon.

My well rig has a Braden 10K hydraulic winch.

Did you say it was a mall crawler?

filedata/fetch?id=282932&d=1611380599

 

[Provience]

Absolutely, still better at that buy-in than the Chinese options. The rebuild of my last 8274 came after a hellacious winching session. I dead-pulled a 7000 lb Toyota up the nastiest local rock trail. It killed the winch motor, my alternator and odyssey battery, by the time it was said and done.

See? Hydraulic Mile Marker wins at the end of the day

 

[Mattafact]

Hydraulic is awesome until your engine won't run. At least with electric you can keep swapping batteries with other people in your group, if needed.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

See? Hydraulic Mile Marker wins at the end of the day

They're cool and all, but I've done way too many pulls where the engine can't or shouldn't be on. Ie: righting a flop, getting a rig off a steep side hill, or getting out of a deep creek crossing. Not a great option for a crawler or snow rig imo. Could always run a small electric backup pump for those situations, but definitely not simple.

 

[realsquash]

Part of me really wants the hydraulic winch, but when I looked at all the valving and stuff to operate it I thought it wasn't great bang for the buck.

I will build whatever bumper I need to, currently no bumper. An 8274 on an XJ probably hinders visibility it's so damned big. Maybe one of those Badlands things with a coupon is the way to go. God I hate the sound of that.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Part of me really wants the hydraulic winch, but when I looked at all the valving and stuff to operate it I thought it wasn't great bang for the buck.

I will build whatever bumper I need to, currently no bumper. An 8274 on an XJ probably hinders visibility it's so damned big. Maybe one of those Badlands things with a coupon is the way to go. God I hate the sound of that.

They aren't that tall

If you're willing to cut the grill on it, like quite a bit, you can tuck them back decently.

 

[PAE]

Maybe in your case but my setup has a standalone HPU powered by a 5hp honda engine.

Its slow but it works.

Basically its not powered by the chassis engine, it has its own, the only way to fly, unless its a PTO driven hydraulic pump, have a few of those also.


Still cant get the idler shaft out of the PTO, one comes easily the other one no go and thats the gear I need.

Anyone have a source for this gear that dont cost 200.00 ?

Hydraulic is awesome until your engine won't run. At least with electric you can keep swapping batteries with other people in your group, if needed.

 

[Lil'John]

Part of me really wants the hydraulic winch, but when I looked at all the valving and stuff to operate it I thought it wasn't great bang for the buck.

I will build whatever bumper I need to, currently no bumper. An 8274 on an XJ probably hinders visibility it's so damned big. Maybe one of those Badlands things with a coupon is the way to go. God I hate the sound of that.

~6" taller is too tall?

Here is the front of an FJ55(similar size to XJ):

I can't see it what so ever.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

~6" taller is too tall?

Here is the front of an FJ55(similar size to XJ):

I can't see it what so ever.

It's probably more than 6" compared to a m8000 style winch. They're also deeper. Xj's can tuck a normal winch super tight, Google xj hidden winch if you care.

I don't think you'll be hiding an 8274

My plan on my 4runner was to try and get the motor behind the grill and maybe just have to cut the drill for the gear box.

 

[Lil'John]

It's probably more than 6" compared to a m8000 style winch. They're also deeper. Xj's can tuck a normal winch super tight, Google xj hidden winch if you care.

I don't think you'll be hiding an 8274

I can go throw some measurements against a HF12k. I don't recall it being THAT massive compared to any other winch. Granted, my install is in a custom bumper that is low mount between the frame rails.

Why would I want to hide my winch? Looks clean just where it is

 

[Provience]

They're cool and all, but I've done way too many pulls where the engine can't or shouldn't be on. Ie: righting a flop, getting a rig off a steep side hill, or getting out of a deep creek crossing. Not a great option for a crawler or snow rig imo. Could always run a small electric backup pump for those situations, but definitely not simple.

hand pump would be far superior to E pump just due to the draw. an E hydraulic pump will pull ~1/2 the amps of an E winch, so there isn't really much benefit there.

come-alongs | McMaster-Carr

manual cranks are a good backup for everybody.

How long do you figure you can run your E winch with any decent load before it starts causing havoc? for short bursts, manual works well.

i've also got an electric winch that i need to pull apart and rebuild. been thinking of sticking it in the rear just because

 

[YotaAtieToo]

hand pump would be far superior to E pump just due to the draw. an E hydraulic pump will pull ~1/2 the amps of an E winch, so there isn't really much benefit there.

come-alongs | McMaster-Carr

manual cranks are a good backup for everybody.

Well I didn't think about that, I think I'd just use my big ass come a long at that point

How long do you figure you can run your E winch with any decent load before it starts causing havoc? for short bursts, manual works well.

It's always been long enough to get me out of whatever. It's usually only a few minutes to right a flop. Obviously it's not going to last long, at that point, you're going to need outside help.

i've also got an electric winch that i need to pull apart and rebuild. been thinking of sticking it in the rear just because

I put a rear winch on my sxs and I think I used it just as much or more than my front

 

[Provience]

I put a rear winch on my sxs and I think I used it just as much or more than my front

oh yeah? huh, well maybe i'll pull it apart and see what broke sooner rather than later then

 

[YotaAtieToo]

oh yeah? huh, well maybe i'll pull it apart and see what broke sooner rather than later then

Maybe not more, but once you have one, it's pretty handy. Mostly for snow stuff. Say your front slide off the road into a tree, front winch might not help. I think I'll set my 4500 up on a receiver mount for the Sami. Won't need it every trip, but can be handy.

 

[Provience]

Well, figured i'd add some pictures so that things can be compared to other things or whatever.

Smittbuilt XRC8

5/16" main drive shaft, pretty standard tab drive motor deal

4 Brush motor with bearings on both ends

Two of the 3 planetary gear sets, you can see the scalloping on the outer ring gear, that is where the "free/engage" switch functions

and the innermost gearset. this sun gear drives the drum directly and the planet gear is built into the case housing.

pretty basic stuff. and probably real similar to all the other 3 planetary gear electric winches out there in similar form.

info from their online flier.

5.5 HP
172:1 gearing

Line load	NO LOAD	2000lbs	4000lbs	6000lbs	8000lbs
line speed	37.2 fpm	18 fpm	13.1 fpm	10.2 fpm	8.2 fpm
motor current	75 amp	195 amp	260 amp	335 amp	410 amp

weight 94 lbs including 94' of 21/32" wire rope

 

[Provience]

and the only other winch i've ever had apart. Mile Marker H10500

Single planetary gear set, thrust bearing in the end

I don't remember the shaft diameter, but it was more than 5/16" as it doesn't have the massive gearing benefit

gears

and i pulled the number off of the hydraulic motor and it came up as a Prince 17.9 Cu In splined motor, which appear to be ~$3-400 for a replacement. but as a 2 bolt with a common spline, wouldn't be particularly difficult to change out to a different sized motor if somebody wanted to mess around with it i'm not sure there is any difference between the 10500 and the 12000 other than the 17.9 cu in vs the 24 cu in motor, for example

Info from their online flier

rated on 3.5 GPM and 1500 PSI
6:1 gearing

layer of cable	1	2	3	4
line speed (low gear) FPM	5.65	6.43	7.41	8.58
Rated Load (LBS)	10,500	8,500	7,400	6,400

Line Speed FPM High Gear 31 36 42 48
Rated Load 1,600 1,300 1,200 1,000

Weight 98 lbs including 100' of 3/8" wire cable


which is why the electrics are generally preferred for speed, because they automagically adjust line speed to load via amp draw to ensure you've always got the highest line speed the load will tolerate, while the hydraulic gives you a static line speed regardless of load.

I don't know what breaks on winches besides motors and solenoids, so robust internals are probably not too much of a concern really

 

[Provience]

also, i'm going to go ahead and borrow a page from masterpull as i'm looking to run a smaller diameter line to compensate a little bit for a cut down drum.

Choose the Correct Size Winch Line (masterpull.com)

Diameter / Strength:


Choosing a winch line diameter comes down to the strength of the winch line. Master Pull recommends using a 1.5:1 to 2:1 safety factor with the winch that you are installing the winch line on. This means the winch line should have a breaking strength of 1.5 to 2 times the pulling power of the winch. For example, if you have a winch with a 9,000 lb pulling capacity, the line should have a breaking strength in the range of 13,500 to 18,000 lbs or higher.

It is always possible to put a larger diameter winch line for additional strength, but keep in mind that as winch line diameter increases, the length of the line has to decrease for it to fit on the drum. This is where the high breaking strengths of the Superline® and Superline® XD really shine. With these winch lines, you can typically use a smaller diameter and achieve the same safety factor as a normal synthetic winch line. For example, a 3/8" diameter Classic winch line has a breaking strength of 17,600 lbs. A 5/16" diameter Superline® is rated at 21,700 lbs, meaning you can fit more line on your drum and increase the breaking strength by going with the Superline®
http://www.masterpull.com/choose-the-correct-size-winch-line/

http://www.masterpull.com/choose-the-correct-size-winch-line/

it's interesting that the "classic 3/8" line" has a 17,600 lb breaking strength and 3/8" steel cable is rated at 14,400 lb breaking strength. It seems like synth line breaks more than cable, but maybe that is related more to age and wear and tear that leads to synth failures.

 

[Provience]

well, reading masterpull saying "1.5-2x" safety factor and pondering on me ridiculing the notion of thinking about safety factors on shackles because they are all so overrated as to be of no concern, i figured i'd look for a more in depth article on the cables.

All About Winch Cable (And Why They Snap so Much) - Roundforge

bammo, internet delivers again. well damn, so maybe i will go with a larger than 3/8" cable and just carry extra lengths of stuff, because even with 100' of rope on the spool, it's never enough.

 

[Squamch]

They aren't that tall

If you're willing to cut the grill on it, like quite a bit, you can tuck them back decently.

yep, spaced my rad back 1" and jammed this in pretty deep.

 

[TRINDU]

Anyone with an 8274 knows it's an 8274 and lists accordingly. Need to look for ads that just saw old warn.

I have 3 M8000, RC9, HS9500, 8274, and M12000. Plus a shitty HF 9000. The most I ever paid for one was $225, and that was for the HF new 10 years ago and it's on a trailer. Some just needed a new solenoid, others full rebuild. All depends what you're willing to do.

 

[Tech Tim]

also, i'm going to go ahead and borrow a page from masterpull as i'm looking to run a smaller diameter line to compensate a little bit for a cut down drum.

Choose the Correct Size Winch Line (masterpull.com)



it's interesting that the "classic 3/8" line" has a 17,600 lb breaking strength and 3/8" steel cable is rated at 14,400 lb breaking strength. It seems like synth line breaks more than cable, but maybe that is related more to age and wear and tear that leads to synth failures.

Another idea is to run less rope on your drum and carry extra as a winch line extension.

When installing my Zeon 10S, we spooled in 75' of it, cut it and respliced both cut ends. So my winch has 75' on it and I have a 20'-ish extension in my gear bag. It helps you get down to the lower wraps faster for more pulling power, it also gives the drum area a little more room for the rope to wind up in one area or another during a pull.

Yes, winch rope is typically stronger than the steel cable. That's what got Emil at Masterpull to start thinking about using it for winching applications (yes, he was the guy that started the winch rope trend). Most of the time I've seen winch rope break it is from damage to the rope.

 

[Tech Tim]

Anyone with an 8274 knows it's an 8274 and lists accordingly. Need to look for ads that just saw old warn.

I have 3 M8000, RC9, HS9500, 8274, and M12000. Plus a shitty HF 9000. The most I ever paid for one was $225, and that was for the HF new 10 years ago and it's on a trailer. Some just needed a new solenoid, others full rebuild. All depends what you're willing to do.

Good idea.

For anyone doing this, make sure you know the difference between the 8274, 8200 and the older Belleview style winches. Belleviews are only worth having if you want something retro on an old rig. The 8200 looks like a 8274, but missing the engagement knob and brake. Some parts are interchangeable.

 

[arse_sidewards]

obligatory Hydraulic Milemarker 2speed winch with a ported stock power steering pump and a small/midsized cooler and never think about it again.

PTO winch, skip all the stupid hydraulic porting and just drive it with a hydraulic motor that's the right size to begin with.

Hydraulic is awesome until your engine won't run. At least with electric you can keep swapping batteries with other people in your group, if needed.

Spend a couple hundred bucks on an electric over hydraulic power pack and quick connects (or some valves) if that's an issue.

~6" taller is too tall?

Here is the front of an FJ55(similar size to XJ):

I can't see it what so ever.

Not everyone is willing to cut all the strength out of the middle of their bumper just to package a winch. I know nobody with a Toyota even scratches the paint but the rest of us bump trees and rocks and whatnot on the regular and we can't be cutting the web out of our bumpers for the same reasons we don't notch frames for exhaust.

 

[gt1guy]

Well, figured i'd add some pictures so that things can be compared to other things or whatever.

Smittbuilt XRC8

info from their online flier.

5.5 HP
172:1 gearing

Line load	NO LOAD	2000lbs	4000lbs	6000lbs	8000lbs
line speed	37.2 fpm	18 fpm	13.1 fpm	10.2 fpm	8.2 fpm
motor current	75 amp	195 amp	260 amp	335 amp	410 amp

weight 94 lbs including 94' of 21/32" wire rope

I went with a big oversized M15 winch because the amp draw at the 8-10k pulling level was much lower that a 8-10k winch. I have dual batteries mounted way in the back of my land barge, so the battery cables are long as hell to get to the winch.

According to the chart at 8k the big winch is using 125 less amps. That should by me a little extra time in getting myself unfucked.

 

[Wilson]

PTO winch, skip all the stupid hydraulic porting and just drive it with a hydraulic motor that's the right size to begin with.



Spend a couple hundred bucks on an electric over hydraulic power pack and quick connects (or some valves) if that's an issue.



Not everyone is willing to cut all the strength out of the middle of their bumper just to package a winch. I know nobody with a Toyota even scratches the paint but the rest of us bump trees and rocks and whatnot on the regular and we can't be cutting the web out of our bumpers for the same reasons we don't notch frames for exhaust.

What a silly argument to make as an attempt to validate your dislike of the 8274. I could say “it’s stronger to mount your winch with the feet facing the direction of pull,” but that would be equally silly. All of my 8274 bumpers have been designed and built around that package and sacrifice nothing.

 

[Wilson]

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