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Chinese winch repair

IowaOffRoad

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Thought I'd post this as I've searched the internet everywhere and had to make some assumptions to repair these. All in all, I think what I've found will work for the majority of 8-13k Chinese manufactured winches priced under $400 (not counting the house brand winches of brick and mortar stores. Winches of this type are routinely priced in the $450-600 range for the same junk).

Like alot of you, my group of friends are more than occasional wheelers on a budget. Me and many of my friends have bought pick your brand versions of Chinese winches. I've seen HF, Tuff Stuff, Viper, house brand farm supply, x-brands off ebay/scamazon. They range in colors and load capacity, but the through line appears to be the 8-9500 pound pull winches have a 216:1 ration and the 12-13500 pound versions have a 265:1 ratio. The weight ratings seem to vary in these two groups by motor hp/kw only.

I have been given several of these, non-operational. I've also non-oped a couple myself. All different brands and weights. As I hate throwing things away that can be fixed, I've tried to find parts for years to repair these. Recently, my searching turned up with parts. Mainly, a replacement brush holder assembly.

I'll lay out what seems to be common amongst these winches. Geartrain appears to be identical, at least among the same ratio/rating groups. Motors have a tang drive (looks like a big straight bit screwdriver) on the business end. All have a 4 brush motor. All geartrains are filled with shit grease that resembles vaseline. Most versions have an unplated brushholder that rusts instantly, and unpainted surfaces internally, or at least poorly painted. All have a 2 pin overrunning type clutch for the 'automatic brake' that, if it has seen much use, is beat to hell. All have plastic/fiber bushings that support the spool. All have shitty o-rings that 'seal' the motor housing.

As most of these fail due to an electrical problem in my experience long before you bust a gear or junk a brake, I've looked all over for a replacement motor. I may have found one (I'll get to that later) but for the money you can just buy another winch. I did, across the pond, find a Land Rover specialty company that carried something that 'looked' like it would work. As it cost about $38 to get it shipped to the greatest country on earth, I took a chance on it. I also found that the bolts welded to the end of the field windings take a beating (one of them was detached), so I soldered the one that had come off back on. I also cleaned up the inside of the motor housing with a big wire brush and a drill to take out the flaky rust and painted it. I chucked the armature up in a lathe at work and polished the commutator bar (copper part), armature stack (steel part), and the shaft ends. Don't take off material, just clean it up! Then I pulled the bearings (the winch that was my guinea pig had a seized bearing on the drive end). The bearings on this one, and all the ones I've torn down so far, are 6203 on the drive side, and 6202 on the other. 6203 is so common good hardware stores have them (get a double sealed one). The 6202 I got in stock at the local NAPA. I also took the opportunity to clean and reseal the gear case. The 'grease', if you can call it that, looked more like Crisco. I repacked it with synthetic MOBIL1, but if I do it again I'm going to use boat trailer grease (waterproof). Then I sealed the ends with silicone.

When the brush holder assembly came, I was pleasantly surprised to find the new one was zinc plated. None of the winches I've torn down so far were anything more than bare steel. As I've seen several fail due to the brushes seizing in the holder due to rust, hopefully they will hold up better. I did find some minor differences between what I had and this one, but the new one was functionally identical where it mattered. I did have to oblong one hole, which I did with the holder slid back into the motor. Everything else worked fine. I reassembled with synthetic grease on the factory o-rings for now, as I thought I'd be back in it soon to work on it.

Long story short, It verks! (#aVe) She came off the healing bench, no worse for wear, better than ever! Runs WAY quieter than all the new China winches I've been around. Now, the solenoid pack is another story. I have a solution for that on the way. I will update this thread when I get it.

Thoughts: I think if I ever buy a new Chinese winch in this price range again, I might tear it down when it's brand new, repack the gear train with good grease, pull the brush holder and paint it with zinc-rich primer, and reseal both ends with silicone. I think by spending 2 hours doing this, you'd have a winch that would last considerably longer. I hope my fix for the solenoid pack is good, it's significantly cheaper than any alternative I've found so far. I did find a replacement motor from the same place I found the brush holder assembly, but it's way outside the price range of what makes sense for an 'experiment', and the same price you can find a whole new winch.
Also, I have about 6 hours in this. If it took this long everytime, you should just work some OT and buy a new winch. Now that I've done one, I think I can do it again in less than 1/2 the time, depending on what's broken. I have about $65 bucks in it so far, and will have $95 in it when the solenoid solution shows up. If I'd have bought the bearings online, I'd have saved about $15 , or had they been okay I'd have popped the seals and repacked them and saved another $15. I spent more money than I needed to as it was a science project.

If anyone has anything to add, tell me I'm wrong/stupid/wasting my time on China junk, or a cheaper source for parts, or a better way to repair these (especially a replacement motor for cheaper), please post up that information.

Below are a couple of links. One to the brush holder assembly, one to the motor you shouldn't buy, one to the 'solution' to the shitty solenoids these things come with.

Brush & Holder Set (replacement) - LL1446BP1 - Britpart | Rimmer Bros
Britpart DB1300 Winch Motor | Rimmer Bros
Winch Solenoid Relay 12V 500A Controller Switch Boat 4WD 4x4 ATV Control | eBay
 

bgaidan

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I used a couple of those contactors on my warns because I didn't feel like fucking with solenoids any more. So far they've held up fine and I've put a pretty good load on both winches. But just typing this makes me realize I should probably buy a spare to keep in the truck when one inevitably lets the smoke out.
 

Derp

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I've been looking at those dirt cheap 13K winches on Amazon, just to put in a hitch receiver cradle to very occasionally use to drag a car up onto a trailer or pull my truck back out of anything I stupidly get myself into. I have noticed they all seem to be one of two (maybe three) manufacturers, with different paint jobs or stickers, and I've been wondering how truly identical they all are.

Thank you for taking the time to answer every question I've had about their build quality, what the failure points are, and especially what preventative things can be done to make them last longer and operate better.
 

Weasel

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I pulled apart my Smittybuit winch and resealed with a semi-setting rtv and repacked everything with Redline Grease. Also changed out most of the bolts to a known grade and source.

Good info above.
 

IowaOffRoad

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I pulled apart my Smittybuit winch and resealed with a semi-setting rtv and repacked everything with Redline Grease. Also changed out most of the bolts to a known grade and source.

Good info above.
Replacing the bolts with 'better' hardware is something on my to-do list. The 2 bolts that hold the motor to the frame are shit. I haven't done it yet, but they need done as under hard loads the motor housing rotates slightly and you cannot tighten them very tight as they don't go very far into the frame. I think building studs out of 8.8 or better grade all-thread is probably a good idea, and bottoming them into the frame with loc-tite before cutting them off. Heli-coiling them might be a good idea as well.

By no means do I think this work turns it into a Ramsey or Warn, but I do think you'll get much longer life out of them.

What series Smittybilt did you get? XRC or X2O? Size? I just bought an X2O Gen2 10k over the winter with synthetic rope cuz a buddy of mine has had good luck with his. Do you like it? Are you glad you upgraded the hardware? I'm tempted to pull it down before installing it and looking it over but am concerned it won't seal up great when I'm done and negate the 'waterproof' nature of it.

I haven't been into Smittybilt, MM, Ramsey, or entry-level Warn. I think with most of these they are either built in China or with predominantly Chinese components but with much better oversight on quality parts and assembly. Hell, even Edelbrock started buying Chinese rough castings and finish machine them in the States on their entry level manifolds. I'm not insulting the Asian-ness of the parts, just the parts selection and quality control. I would love to buy an American made Warn, but I couldn't afford to run a winch and build a rig both with my budget. I also can't afford to throw away $300 every year on another cheap winch and feel good about it.
 

ridenby

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Nice write up. The first ebay winch I got sounded like a rock crusher running. I opened it and brake cleaned some of the vasoline off and put green grease on gears. Made a difference.
 

IowaOffRoad

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Nice write up. The first ebay winch I got sounded like a rock crusher running. I opened it and brake cleaned some of the vasoline off and put green grease on gears. Made a difference.
I keep remembering stuff I should have added to the initial post. When I got my first china winch (Viper 13k) it sounded exactly the same. One of the reasons I got to digging into these is I burnt one of the copper braided wires off a brush due to the excess load very shortly after my first uses. Initially, the excess load was due to axial tension on the motor bearings due to the assembly process. When I worked at a factory producing conveyor systems, we had the same issue but we had methods of dealing with it. Essentially, when they press everything together during assembly, the inner and outer races end up in a different plane. How we dealt with it at the factory is much the same principal you use when you smack the yoke on a driveshaft after replacing the u-joint to free it up. I took the end cap off the motor and lightly tapped it with a rubber mallet and reassembled it. It brought the races back into alignment and took the load down on the motor considerably, and quieted it down by 50% or more. That, and putting actual grease in the planetary reduction. Between me and my friends, we've had a couple of dozen of these winches. Some of them are relatively quiet out of the box and don't draw an inordinate amount of amps. Some melt down battery cables and sound like a Starbucks coffee grinder. It's a crapshoot.

I was reading about Chinese industry in general and why their export consumer products can me so much cheaper than elsewhere. Essentially, they farm QC out to the consumer. Even with a higher rate of come-backs than industry standard, they make it up by not employing inspectors. It's not that they never check, just that it's so much rarer than industry standard. In some cases, nothing is ever inspected until reports from the field indicate a problem. I've had the 'privilege of inspecting Chinese machining on critical engine surfaces. As someone who spent a decade as a machinist, I have thoughts. The tolerance is there. By that, I mean by the 'letter' of the print, not the spirit. If they are machining a large surface, you can see exactly when the tool broke and was changed. The tool paths and speeds are optimized for speed and nothing else. No edges are ever broke. No non-load bearing casting is ever thrown out, just filled with 2 part epoxy.

All this is to say, I think you can have much better luck with these things by doing a little finish work they aren't doing yourself, if you have a couple of hours. If they did it there, it would probably add $50 to the final cost of the winch, that includes upgraded hardware and grease, better sealing, more plating. IF some American distributor would spec this, sell them under their own name, and offer a 2 year warranty, they would probably run everyone else out of the market in the $300-600 dollar price point. You could sell at the same margin and end up with a $400 dollar winch that would last like a $700 dollar winch for what most people use it for. It's never going to replace the reliability or peace of mind a $1000+ dollar winch will afford you, especially considering the 5% duty cycle standard these are built to (read the manual for one of these and that's what it said in the specifications). Business idea for anyone who wants it.
 

Weasel

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XRC 8k winch bought in 2009, hardware was just twisting off or stripping out when I pulled the unit apart. Alot of that stainless stuff is such junk. I think they have improved their products since then.
 

TrailTamer

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I like this thread. I have at least 3 winches, maybe 4, to go through.

Have anyone find a good solution to enclose/seal up your solenoid pack/contactor? As much as I tried to protect the housing my badland winch came with, I still break them! punched a huge hole on bottom side when the cable come in contact and pushed it off the mounting bracket.
 

Weasel

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remote mounted inside of the frame rail on the truggy and under the ARB bumper on the DD and switched to an Albright style contactor.
 

bgaidan

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All this is to say, I think you can have much better luck with these things by doing a little finish work they aren't doing yourself, if you have a couple of hours. If they did it there, it would probably add $50 to the final cost of the winch, that includes upgraded hardware and grease, better sealing, more plating. IF some American distributor would spec this, sell them under their own name, and offer a 2 year warranty, they would probably run everyone else out of the market in the $300-600 dollar price point. You could sell at the same margin and end up with a $400 dollar winch that would last like a $700 dollar winch for what most people use it for. It's never going to replace the reliability or peace of mind a $1000+ dollar winch will afford you, especially considering the 5% duty cycle standard these are built to (read the manual for one of these and that's what it said in the specifications). Business idea for anyone who wants it.

Isn't the pretty much what HF is doing? When the new 12k came out it was priced around $900 and probably didn't sell for shit. Apparently they realized they couldn't compete wit the other chinese sellers and now you can get it for $500. Only thing that lacks is the warranty. I think it's still only 3 months and you have to pay another $120+ for 2 years. But, for $500, you're getting a decently fast 12k with synthetic rope and a decent wireless remote. By the time you add synthetic and a better remote to the cheapest ones, you're right at the same price point. The bonus with HF is that you can actually get some parts for it if you break it.


I bought a 10k X20 right after the HF one came out.....primarily because I somehow got it for $470 out the door from Amazon and the best you could do on the HF back then was around $650. Given the pricing for both today, I'd definitely go with the HF.
 

IowaOffRoad

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Where are you getting a HF Apex winch for $500 unless there’s something like a Black Friday sale?
As far as what HF is doing: I don’t know. I haven’t been inside an Apex winch. Everything I posted refers to the badlands style winch, and my suggestion that someone could spec plated internals and better grease and build a much better winch at the $400 price point doesn’t take into account sales of better, faster winches for more money. I do think that many people would spend the extra $100 if you could demonstrate a markedly better product as it would still be a couple hundred dollars cheaper than the next closest competition at regular price. If you’re suggesting not to waste your time on this I don’t blame you. I think I’d trade money for a better winch and save my time for something else at the point of buying a new one. If you’ve already sunk money in one of these, or if someone else is just throwing it away I offered this up to be able to salvage them. I am not suggesting that the end result is superior to a Brand winch or even on par with the Apex or Smitty offerings. I just bought an X2O myself as I wanted a faster, possibly more reliable winch.
 

bgaidan

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Where are you getting a HF Apex winch for $500 unless there’s something like a Black Friday sale?
As far as what HF is doing: I don’t know. I haven’t been inside an Apex winch. Everything I posted refers to the badlands style winch, and my suggestion that someone could spec plated internals and better grease and build a much better winch at the $400 price point doesn’t take into account sales of better, faster winches for more money. I do think that many people would spend the extra $100 if you could demonstrate a markedly better product as it would still be a couple hundred dollars cheaper than the next closest competition at regular price. If you’re suggesting not to waste your time on this I don’t blame you. I think I’d trade money for a better winch and save my time for something else at the point of buying a new one. If you’ve already sunk money in one of these, or if someone else is just throwing it away I offered this up to be able to salvage them. I am not suggesting that the end result is superior to a Brand winch or even on par with the Apex or Smitty offerings. I just bought an X2O myself as I wanted a faster, possibly more reliable winch.
It was $500 in store last week. I guess it was their "spring black friday" sale or something. But you know HF, it'll be that price every holiday weekend. Current price not on sale is $600 so it'll most certainly be available cheaper at times. I almost picked one up, but I probably won't need it for anything for over a year and fuck storing more junk.

I think we're still learning the new HF sale and pricing model....and they'll probably slowly change back to more coupons and sales.
 

rockmup

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It was $500 in store last week. I guess it was their "spring black friday" sale or something. But you know HF, it'll be that price every holiday weekend. Current price not on sale is $600 so it'll most certainly be available cheaper at times. I almost picked one up, but I probably won't need it for anything for over a year and fuck storing more junk.

I think we're still learning the new HF sale and pricing model....and they'll probably slowly change back to more coupons and sales.

I've been watching on line for them to get back down to 500 for a few months and haven't seen it yet. They were 449.00 last Octoberish but I didn't need one then.
 

TrailTamer

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remote mounted inside of the frame rail on the truggy and under the ARB bumper on the DD and switched to an Albright style contactor.
I Need some kind of box as the one of mine broke is on a winch cradle. Otherwise I won’t have asked & Mount elsewhere on the rig.
 

bgaidan

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I've been watching on line for them to get back down to 500 for a few months and haven't seen it yet. They were 449.00 last Octoberish but I didn't need one then.
I guess it was a couple weeks ago when I saw them for $499. I'm sure this is the new regular sale price.
1620153137136.png
 

IowaOffRoad

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I would like to get my hand on one to tear down. Buddy of mine bought one when he joined the inside track club as they give you 20% off your first item. He used the savings to purchase the 2 year warranty. The manager told him that they will give him a new one no questions asked before 2 years. I may tear his down before his 2 years are up because he says he’s getting a new one before it runs out. Ethically a little squishy, but if he’s going to do it anyway I’m going to get some knowledge out of it.
I was in the city when they were doing that sale, both HF’s were out almost immediately. Got online, according to the published inventory there was only 2 stores in 250 miles that had one. I was going to buy one for my new project and see what I thought, maybe next time. I should have bought one last fall for $449, they were probably using it as a loss leader to draw in customers.
[Hot Item] High Quality 4X4 Recovery Winch 12000lb with Synthetic Rope

Tell me this isn’t the Apex winch. Perhaps IBB community could come up with the minimum buy and one of the vendors could
take delivery. Distribute them for S&H? You listening 4x4toyotatyler or JimmyJet10? #SnailTrail4x4 podcast
 

bgaidan

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I would like to get my hand on one to tear down. Buddy of mine bought one when he joined the inside track club as they give you 20% off your first item. He used the savings to purchase the 2 year warranty. The manager told him that they will give him a new one no questions asked before 2 years. I may tear his down before his 2 years are up because he says he’s getting a new one before it runs out. Ethically a little squishy, but if he’s going to do it anyway I’m going to get some knowledge out of it.
I was in the city when they were doing that sale, both HF’s were out almost immediately. Got online, according to the published inventory there was only 2 stores in 250 miles that had one. I was going to buy one for my new project and see what I thought, maybe next time. I should have bought one last fall for $449, they were probably using it as a loss leader to draw in customers.
[Hot Item] High Quality 4X4 Recovery Winch 12000lb with Synthetic Rope

Tell me this isn’t the Apex winch. Perhaps IBB community could come up with the minimum buy and one of the vendors could
take delivery. Distribute them for S&H? You listening 4x4toyotatyler or JimmyJet10? #SnailTrail4x4 podcast
This is the closest I've seen to a tear down


That china one looks close, but not the same as the apex. The right side case looks way shorter. Probably a copy of the apex and I'd suspect it has the QC problems you mentioned earlier.

I've always been curious what the freight is like for large orders from Alibaba...like pallets full. There are a couple of products I've found on there that i know could be profitable to resell if the freight doesn't double the purchase price. For the one you posted, you're looking at $8300 + freight for the minimum order....so probably at least $10k.

Here's the same with steel line but it has a wireless remote...



Edit:

Now, price and feature wise, this one is interesting:
 

IowaOffRoad

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ENJOIN 12000LBS Synthetic Rope Winch (Waterproof) 12v 4×4 Electric Winch

bgaidan: I was intrigued by the gear ratio listed in the alibaba listing (191:1), which would indicate a faster winch. If you go straight to the manufacturer's website, they list it as 265:1 and a rated no load line speed of 21.3 ft/s. That is the same no load line speed listed by basically everyone selling a 12-13.5k winch. Now, the 6.6hp motor is more than most you see, and it's 'waterproof'.

I watched that video. It does seem to be built basically the same as the $300 winches internally, but with better grease. You'll notice that the 'beefy' outer part of the gear housing is a facade, but how it mounts to the main frame is better than the cheap ones. The motor has the power studs all on one side, and I think they must have internalized the cable to the brushes. I haven't really looked my buddy's over that well, helped him mount it in the dark a month ago and haven't seen it since.

As far as it's superiority to the one I linked previously: if you'll look on alibaba or made-in-china.com you will see in the listings a minimum purchase amount for customization. I believe some of the 'better' spec'd winches are basically what HF spec'd for themselves from one of these suppliers, but with a few differences. I'm not running down HF as I am a recurring shopper, but many things they sell there can be had cheaper. The nice thing about HF is their liberal return policy and the ease of accessibility compared to what we've been discussing and you don't have to wander the internet to find it. I looked for a US seller and haven't found one for those enjoin winches. If I had 10G's floating around with nothing to do I think I'd look into importing a couple crates of those Enjoin winches customized black and green with Irate on them (with Austin's blessing of course) and start selling them for a couple of Jacksons over cost+shipping. Alas, we're getting baby #4 in a few months and I don't have the time, even if I could scare up the $.
 

bgaidan

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I've never bought through Alibaba before, but I'm game to get a "sample" one if it's not too much of a PITA dealing with them. Like I said, there area couple other marketable products I've considered purchasing in qty there, just haven't been motivated to make contact and figure out if it's worth it or not.


Like I said earlier, one of the biggest advantages I see with HF is they DO stock some spare parts for them so if you break something you're not completely SOL. I'd be curious if you ordered a couple dozen from them if they'd also be able to send you a spare parts lot of the parts that are most likely to fail so you could at least support them for a year or two after the sale.
 

bgaidan

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Fuck it....just put in an order for one. I'll be the gunea pig. :flipoff2: Let's see how long it takes to get here on the slow boat from china.
 

IowaOffRoad

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Yay! (I think) I hope we didn’t encourage some bad buying decisions:grinpimp: When you get it do a full aVe style #Boltr teardown video! That way, even if it doesn’t work as good as we all hope, you’ll still get some enjoyment out of it!
 

TrailTamer

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I have a potentially silly idea, any reason why shouldn't I add a greasing zerk somewhere on the gear case side on top side and a vent/drain plug on bottom, to pump some grease into there to keep it lubed and push old or water out at bottom (plug removed when greasing)?
 

IowaOffRoad

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As long as it has a path for grease to expand that’s not necessarily a bad idea. The only issue may be is if you are around muddy or sandy water the possibility of grit getting in the gears goes way up. The machining it pretty tight and not much of a piece of sand may lock it up. If you just have issues with water that’s like rain water or clear stream water it’s probably a good plan. Use boat trailer grease (waterproof).
 

bgaidan

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I have a potentially silly idea, any reason why shouldn't I add a greasing zerk somewhere on the gear case side on top side and a vent/drain plug on bottom, to pump some grease into there to keep it lubed and push old or water out at bottom (plug removed when greasing)?

I think you'd have far better results just pulling the gear box off every year or two and cleaning out the old shit and regreasing. Most of them have multiple layers of planetaries and you're not likely going to realy displace the old grease on the gears themselves. I light coat of good, quality grease in the right spots is better than a gear box full of grease where 98% of it isn't doing anything.
 

TheRix

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Ordered the brush kit. The badlands 9k on my tow rig quit after the brush connecter bolt broke off the brush leads.
Thanks for the write up and links.
 

IowaOffRoad

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Decided to include some pictures this time. Just rebuild my (un)trusty Viper 13K winch I've ran for 7 years now. One too many baths in the river and various mudholes led to it being a chunk of ballast at the front of the rig. I found a few differences, but not enough to stop me getting it working.

Below is the new Britpart brush assembly
New britpart brushes.JPG

Here is the geartrain outer housing after cleaning, behind you can see the outer shell and rotor before cleaning
Viper 13000 geartrain housing cleaned.JPG

Here is a closeup of the geartrain before cleaning
Viper 13000 geartrain.JPG

Here is the motor housing with the old brushes
Viper 13000 motor housing and brushes.JPG

Winch after cleaning, regreasing geartrain and reinstalling rotor.
Viper 13000 motor reassebly.JPG

Here is the cleaned up motor housing with new brushes installed. I painted the interior after a drill with wire wheel de-rusted the interior
Viper 13000 new brushes installed 2.JPG

Closeup of the new brushes installed
Viper 13000 new brushes installed.JPG

Old rusty brushes, she sure ain't a waterproof winch
Viper 13000 old brushes.JPG

Pre-cleaned rotor and bearing. I replaced the larger bearing on the drum side, I cleaned and repacked this bearing. Teeny bit rough but good enough for now as I'm trying to finish it up to hang on the rig for a weekend wheeling trip tomorrow.
Viper 13000 rotor.JPG

interior of motor before cleanup
Viper 13000 stator.JPG


So, here's the differences I found between this one and the other I rebuilt, which was 6 years older than this one.

Geartrain has a separate skinny housing right on the end of the main housing that is just sandwiched with the cap screws for the first stage reduction gear. All the gears in the interior appear to be the same. I suspect it is a modular design to eliminate it and the corresponding planet gear for the 9k version and speed up the gear reduction.

Screws for the old brushes, and the holes in the housing were too small for the Britpart brush assembly, though all the holes were basically in the same location. Took the smallest of tweaking with needle-nose to make one tab of the brush holder line up. The Britpart screw holes are 10-32 machine screw thread. I drilled the external holes on the motor housing out with a 3/16" bit and intalled new screws. One hole in the new plate isn't threaded. I just used a nut on the backside (forgot to mention this in the first post on the other winch.

The automatic brake on this one is a more robust, but more troublesome design. is uses a spring with tabs on it (sorry I didn't get more photos, this was at 3 am and my hands were filthy) that appears to force it against the outside of the housing, while the metal parts are beefier, this spring isn't. I also added some lube, which was probably a mistake as it doesn't bind against the housing very well. Oh well, you shouldn't trust a brake on a winch anyway, and it didn't grab great when new. It does seem to eventually grab, though that was just on the bench. Time will tell how it works in the field.

I just repacked the bearings and the geartrain with Mobil synthetic wheel bearing grease. Better than the dried vaseline-like substance I pulled out of it.

If I lay my hands on another non-op winch that is repairable I'll try to get the whole process. Maybe I'll be able to recruit the boy as photographer, not an option at 3am:laughing:

If anyone else has any variations of these I haven't detailed, drop your knowledge!
 
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