Billing Customers For Rust Issues

[Arickvan]

Nope because labor times are calculated on brand new cars that are as clean as it gets.

For those saying basically “labor times are padded and you just wanna charge extra” I think is straight up BS. Customer pay times are pretty accurate in representing how long a job should take WITHOUT RUST, even if you can beat them by 25-50%. With rust involved, it doesn’t take long to run over book time. And the customer should pay for that.

I agree with the idea of quoting a “worst case scenario” price and a “everything goes according to plan” price. That way the customer isn’t shocked when they’re charged an extra hour to drill and tap out a bolt, etc.

point being that you win some and lose some and break even in the end

if you win them all, cool, but you gotta make sure to have repeat customers or youll lose in the end

not a mechanic, but in construction we do small favors for free here and there, sometimes big favors depending on the situation

 

[subybaja]

have you considered looking into a different line of work? toilets always need plunging, roadkill needs to be scraped up, windows need licking. Somewhere the perfect job is just waiting for you, to probably also be terrible at.

Canals also need maintenance and brushcutting.

 

[Ted_Kaczynski]

For the $110/hr or whatever it is now, I'd expect an experienced tech.

This, but I'm willing to split the difference with the guy that knows his shit. Who judges that difference? Jimmyblahblah in this case, and I'm taking my shit somewhere else or doing it myself. OP, be glad your shop is even still open as bat shit crazy as you are.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

This, but I'm willing to split the difference with the guy that knows his shit. Who judges that difference? Jimmyblahblah in this case, and I'm taking my shit somewhere else or doing it myself. OP, be glad your shop is even still open as bat shit crazy as you are.

No idea, I have a buddy who I semi trust who does shit in his driveway for dirt cheap. And another buddy who is a legit mechanic who will do things for around $60/hr.

 

[Eric]

Customer here. I'm ok with getting billed for time above book if I don't get charged book rate when a job is completed faster than the book says it should. Otherwise its bull shit.

 

[Eric]

Nope because labor times are calculated on brand new cars that are as clean as it gets.

Nonsense. And the hourly rate is already bloated in the first place. Granted, alot of that bloating is due to government micro-managment of the auto repair business.

 

[crispins]

I officially take back my previous statement.

I WOULD NOT let Jimmyblahblah work on my car, he is a fucking idiot.

Admits that he beats book time = that is fine

Has an issue = customer must pay more.

Go fuck yourself, you are a piece of shit Jimmy, fuck you and fuck you

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

It's fair to charge extra, if it takes extra time, but imo should be ok'd by the customer. And really the car should be looked at before the price is agreed on. So the customer should know it might cost more because it's rusty.

I also don't think I should pay for 3 hours when the job got done in 1. Which is why I don't take my shit to huge shops.

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I agree, not having to deal with particularly bad rust issues here in the south. Personally, I’d have a few photos of various underbodies in the waiting room, labeled 1-4 in terms of rust. #1 is minimal/normal and book price. #2 is a $50 upcharge, #3 is $150, and #4 take your shit to the junkyard.

Go out there when they drop the car off with a big inspection mirror and a Polaroid camera, snap a couple pics and rate the car before you start.

I disagree with you about paying for 3 hours if it only takes 1 though. That is effectively how experienced mechanics get raises. I’m aware with how book times are calculated, but would you be happy paying the 3 hours it takes for Jr who’s fresh out of Wyotech with his $500 worth of tools struggling through the job for the first time ever?

If Steve, who’s done it 50 times and knows where every hidden bolt is and what size it is before they start, and has invested $3,000 just in specialty tools to make things easier and faster can do it in 1 hour, he should make less money?

Sure, you could break the pay scales up even more than they already are and let the customer choose, but who’s actually going to pick the $150/hr guy (shop rate) over the $75/hr guy. Then Jr gets all backed up getting cars done and Steve has to come help him for half of his normal rate?

If you know the price up front and agree to it, do you really want to sit there waiting on your car for a few extra hours/days so it’s “fair”?

There are times where something that’s not in a book gets quoted and it ends up being WAY easier than anticipated. Think stuff like mounting and wiring a hidden winch. If it’s a walk in the park, a lot of times I’ll discount the quote.

 

[jimmy123456789]

I officially take back my previous statement.

I WOULD NOT let Jimmyblahblah work on my car, he is a fucking idiot.

Admits that he beats book time = that is fine

Has an issue = customer must pay more.

Go fuck yourself, you are a piece of shit Jimmy, fuck you and fuck you

Yes, some jobs it's easy to beat book time, others not so much.

I agree that the customer should be advised beforehand about any issues that could occur because of the condition of their vehicle (i.e. rust) or because of known common rust issues of that vehicle (Chevy truck camber bolts, Ram 1500 lower strut bolts, tie rod sleeves, etc.) and told beforehand that the repair will cost x "worst case scenario" and x if all goes well.

All these people who have issues with charging more really don't understand business or flat rate. As I said, the time studies that the flat rate labor times are taken from are calculated on brand new vehicles without rust, an ideal world that's rarely seen out in the field. You become able to "beat" the book time through repetition and finding shortcuts to repairs (i.e. instead of unhooking everything from intake manifold and removing it completely, unbolting it and using zip ties/bungee cords to hold it up, saving steps). You know exactly what tools you need, what you need to remove first (or not at all), etc.

Now let's throw rust into the equation. Say I've got a front wheel bearing to replace on a Ram 1500 (book time is 1.3 hours). And let's say (because it's true) that the CV axle threads are completely caked with rust, needed wire wheeled to clean them up. It's also seized in the hub so I take my air chisel with the point and air hammer the axle loose, filling the hole were it goes with PB Blaster.

And say the hub is very corroded in the knuckle and I spend 30 minutes of that 1.3 hours hammering the bearing out. After that I've got to wire wheel the knuckle to clean all the corrosion off it so the new hub assemble will fall right into place and not have to be "ran in" with the bolts and an impact. I've spent over half an hour of my time just dealing with rust and corrosion. In the flat rate time studies I'm sure they just unbolted everything, tapped on it with a hammer and it fell right out. Not the same conditions, therefore shouldn't be the same charge IMO.

It's not the customer's fault that their vehicle is rusty, but it is their responsibility to deal with and pay for problems that arise by living in a rust belt area.

 

[jimmy123456789]

Nonsense. And the hourly rate is already bloated in the first place. Granted, alot of that bloating is due to government micro-managment of the auto repair business.

At the dealership level I agree, there's lots of "fat" that could be trimmed at the dealer level in terms of wasted money.

But on the independent level, there's still a lot of expenses that go into running and "keeping up" in the industry, and many shops fall behind. Special tools and diagnostic equipment aren't cheap, and the number of competent techs in the business are dwindling and getting harder to retain, so pay and benefits has to go up to draw them in. The tool invest on a tech's end alone can run well over $50000, let alone all the shop equipment and tools, insurance, rent/mortgage, maintenance, utilities, wages, taxes, and all the other overhead that goes into running a shop. With that level of overhead, can't really expect to see a legit shop working less than $60, and that's on the cheap end.

 

[jimmy123456789]

I’ve gotten hit with a fee for “remove seized bolts” before. We’re talking about shit like small block ford timing cover bolts, or lower control arm bolts that haven’t moved in 20 years. I think it was like $50 an hour, and they usually don’t charge for the full hour. It’s just to cover the cost for the gas for the torch and the extra time working shit back and forth on shit you can’t be blatantly destructive with. Leaf spring bolts, cut them off and charge me for the new ones, it’s cheaper and easier for everyone that way, and shops know it. That’s not really an option on Ford timing cover bolts though.

Rotor rusted to the hub? Fuck you, beat it off with a fucking hammer. If it’s been on there long enough to be that stuck, it’s probably due for replacement anyway.

1. Yes, sometimes torching bolts and replacing is more efficient than trying to save rusty fasteners.

2. I'm pretty lazy and don't even get out my hammer for rotors anymore, my air hammer takes off 99% of the rotors I change. I just air hammer the face of the rotor and around the hat, especial if it's rear rotors and has drum in hat style parking brake systems. And I'm not saying you charge because you had to hammer on a rotor for 30 seconds, but you HAVE to draw the line somewhere. How long would you spend working on something rusted (being paid flat rate) before you asked for more time?

 

[jimmy123456789]

Customer here. I'm ok with getting billed for time above book if I don't get charged book rate when a job is completed faster than the book says it should. Otherwise its bull shit.

What's to stop a shitty mechanic from just "milking" the time from you to get book time? If shops started charging by actual time vs. book time, they tell the techs to work slower so they could charge more, whereas now the techs and the shop have incentive to get work in and out as fast and efficiently as possible.

 

[DMG]

Do you have a problem taking money when you do it quicker than book time?

Is the book time 3 hours, you could do it in 1 hour, but it's a rusted pig and it takes you the whole 3 hours, and now you want compensated for 2 extra hours?

Book time is calculated on a new rust free vehicle. If the torch comes out the customer pays.

 

[A_G]

Those that cant...manage.

Change the world for your coworkers apply to be a service manager.

 

[Eric]

What's to stop a shitty mechanic from just "milking" the time from you to get book time? If shops started charging by actual time vs. book time, they tell the techs to work slower so they could charge more, whereas now the techs and the shop have incentive to get work in and out as fast and efficiently as possible.

Apparently you skipped economics 000 on the day they covered COMPETITION.

 

[Ted_Kaczynski]

At the dealership level I agree, there's lots of "fat" that could be trimmed at the dealer level in terms of wasted money.

But on the independent level, there's still a lot of expenses that go into running and "keeping up" in the industry, and many shops fall behind. Special tools and diagnostic equipment aren't cheap, and the number of competent techs in the business are dwindling and getting harder to retain, so pay and benefits has to go up to draw them in. The tool invest on a tech's end alone can run well over $50000, let alone all the shop equipment and tools, insurance, rent/mortgage, maintenance, utilities, wages, taxes, and all the other overhead that goes into running a shop. With that level of overhead, can't really expect to see a legit shop working less than $60, and that's on the cheap end.

You're bullshit genie popping out of the bottle pricing working both sides of the coin to your favor is precisely why I take my shit to the dealer or do it myself. They have the right tools and parts or I have the will to see it through. If anyone is setting up moving targets for my wallet, it'll be me

Don't bill me for your Tech's snap on addiction, I can just buy my own..

 

[total newb]

What's to stop a shitty mechanic from just "milking" the time from you to get book time? If shops started charging by actual time vs. book time, they tell the techs to work slower so they could charge more, whereas now the techs and the shop have incentive to get work in and out as fast and efficiently as possible.

Or just maybe. There are not shitty mechanics out there that dont scam ass

 

[jimmy123456789]

You're bullshit genie popping out of the bottle pricing working both sides of the coin to your favor is precisely why I take my shit to the dealer or do it myself. They have the right tools and parts or I have the will to see it through. If anyone is setting up moving targets for my wallet, it'll be me

Don't bill me for your Tech's snap on addiction, I can just buy my own..

I’ll ask again, what should techs and shops do about rust. I’ve presented the solution of billing more than book time for dealing with rust, what’s unfair about that?

Far as tools go, you’ve got to have quality tools to get the work done. Harbor freight will only get you so far, and good tools aren’t cheap. Having a POS tool break when you need it most and you don’t have a backup SUCKS

 

[jimmy123456789]

Or just maybe. There are not shitty mechanics out there that dont scam ass

Who’s scamming anyone? I’d charge book time and if billing for rust, I snap a few pictures of exactly what I dealt with if the customer wants to see exactly why I’m biking extra. Most don’t care, but anyone that wants to make a fuss about it, I have documentation.

 

[Ted_Kaczynski]

I’ll ask again, what should techs and shops do about rust. I’ve presented the solution of billing more than book time for dealing with rust, what’s unfair about that?

Far as tools go, you’ve got to have quality tools to get the work done. Harbor freight will only get you so far, and good tools aren’t cheap. Having a POS tool break when you need it most and you don’t have a backup SUCKS

My solution is your shop isn't touching my shit. You wanna call me after my shit is apart and held hostage to charge me more..fuck you. Learn to give an honest quote or fuck off.

Your Tech's tools are yours and theirs problems. Balance it in an honest hourly rate with an honest quote or go fuck yourself.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

I have a feeling jimmy needs a map to find his way home everyday and a manual to guide him through tying his shoes.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I agree, not having to deal with particularly bad rust issues here in the south. Personally, I’d have a few photos of various underbodies in the waiting room, labeled 1-4 in terms of rust. #1 is minimal/normal and book price. #2 is a $50 upcharge, #3 is $150, and #4 take your shit to the junkyard.

Go out there when they drop the car off with a big inspection mirror and a Polaroid camera, snap a couple pics and rate the car before you start.

I disagree with you about paying for 3 hours if it only takes 1 though. That is effectively how experienced mechanics get raises. I’m aware with how book times are calculated, but would you be happy paying the 3 hours it takes for Jr who’s fresh out of Wyotech with his $500 worth of tools struggling through the job for the first time ever?

Like I said, if I drop it off at a large shop with a 110/hr rate, I expect an experienced tech to be doing the work or, at minimum, overseeing it. If new guy takes 5 hours on a 3 hour job, I'd expect the shop to eat the 2 hours. Why would it be the customers fault that he's new?

If Steve, who’s done it 50 times and knows where every hidden bolt is and what size it is before they start, and has invested $3,000 just in specialty tools to make things easier and faster can do it in 1 hour, he should make less money?

Not at all, I'd think a more experienced guy should make more per hour than a less experienced guy, but the flat rate shit is a whole different ball game.

Sure, you could break the pay scales up even more than they already are and let the customer choose, but who’s actually going to pick the $150/hr guy (shop rate) over the $75/hr guy. Then Jr gets all backed up getting cars done and Steve has to come help him for half of his normal rate?

If you know the price up front and agree to it, do you really want to sit there waiting on your car for a few extra hours/days so it’s “fair”?

There are times where something that’s not in a book gets quoted and it ends up being WAY easier than anticipated. Think stuff like mounting and wiring a hidden winch. If it’s a walk in the park, a lot of times I’ll discount the quote.

Most normal repair jobs should be quoted before hand. The final bill should be close. I understand if things come up. Rust is a good example. I think if the bill is going to be significantly more, it should be verified with the customer. For example, "hey the bolts were rusty, we had to spend another hour to get them out" I'm fine with. On the other end, my buddy took his 299d cat skid steer in to get the a/c fixed. Dealer quoted him him ~$1k. He goes to pick it up and they want $1950. He is pissed because it's basically double. Which I understand, imo, they should have called at some point to approve extra costs.

I've been on both ends. Mostly fab work. Guys ask, how much for xx. Then they figure, may as well do xxx and xxxx while were there. Then don't understand why their bill is 40% more than the quote.

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[TrikeKid]

I don't eat any turd sandwich I didn't make for myself. Bring me a rusty piece of shit or something with bolts already broken off and I'm charging for it but it'll be on the original estimate. Anything more than a couple years old gets the time bumped or rounded up too. Most shops do that for themselves, they just don't pass it along to the tech.

 

[jimmy123456789]

My solution is your shop isn't touching my shit. You wanna call me after my shit is apart and held hostage to charge me more..fuck you. Learn to give an honest quote or fuck off.

Your Tech's tools are yours and theirs problems. Balance it in an honest hourly rate with an honest quote or go fuck yourself.

Never said I’d tear down a vehicle and hold you “hostage”. Wouldn’t tear down a vehicle to that extent without some sort of diag charge. And I’d warn any customer beforehand of any issues that might crop up.

Secondly, without actually having ran an automotive business how can you say the hourly rate isn’t honest? You don’t know the overhead a shop has. There’s a reason why most legit shops labor rates fall into a range. The lower end bottoms out somewhere because that’s the minimum cost to do business and still be profitable. Expecting a shop to only charge $20-35 an hour is ludicrous.

The automotive trade is looked down on by the general public in a way that few other professions are, and I think it’s from both lack of education and trying to price shop for auto repair and then being disappointed. Other trades charge similar hourly rates and aren’t viewed with the same disdain as auto mechanics.

Competent techs cost money, as does a shop. You as the customer will pay for that. Or take it to Joe Blow down the road who’ll do it cheap, and most likely wrong.

 

[montrose818]

Rust is not not part of book time. At that point book time goes out the window and its charged as a different job.

 

[Ted_Kaczynski]

Never said I’d tear down a vehicle and hold you “hostage”. Wouldn’t tear down a vehicle to that extent without some sort of diag charge. And I’d warn any customer beforehand of any issues that might crop up.

Secondly, without actually having ran an automotive business how can you say the hourly rate isn’t honest? You don’t know the overhead a shop has. There’s a reason why most legit shops labor rates fall into a range. The lower end bottoms out somewhere because that’s the minimum cost to do business and still be profitable. Expecting a shop to only charge $20-35 an hour is ludicrous.

The automotive trade is looked down on by the general public in a way that few other professions are, and I think it’s from both lack of education and trying to price shop for auto repair and then being disappointed. Other trades charge similar hourly rates and aren’t viewed with the same disdain as auto mechanics.

Competent techs cost money, as does a shop. You as the customer will pay for that. Or take it to Joe Blow down the road who’ll do it cheap, and most likely wrong.

Every response you post solidifies my decision to avoid independent shops. You're the reason I go up the chain from your likeness or do it myself. Are you really this thick headed?

 

[jimmy123456789]

Every response you post solidifies my decision to avoid independent shops. You're the reason I go up the chain from your likeness or do it myself. Are you really this thick headed?

What exactly do you disagree with me about?

Im saying you don’t understand the costs of doing business and what you’ve gotta charge in order to turn a profit. That cost is passed along to the customer, Like it or not. That’s how business works.

 

[jimmy123456789]

Ladies and gentleman, we have identified the problem. Do you think the rest of us enjoy going to work? That every part of our jobs are easy, or fun, or enjoyable? No. But I drag my ass into work every day and bust my ass, doing the easy shit and the suck ass parts, because that’s what I have to do to pay my bills and put food on the table. You are standing there bitching about the harder parts of your job, which is why you are getting so much hatred on here. You are lazy and entitled. You want every thing to be easy, to be spoon fed.

Everyone is paid in direct proportion to the difficulty of the problems you solve, and how quickly and efficiently you solve them. Flat rate is great since it directly effects your pay in connection to how efficiently you are working on that project. Because you want to sit there and coat everything in Fucking glitter paste, and take the time to drag out an air hammer, change your bit, and hook up the air line, and probably oil it up too since a perfect technician such as your self keeps his tools in tip top shape, instead of grabbing a 24oz ball pein hammer and hitting it with your fucking purse, you are not working to maximum efficiency. “But I don’t won’t to wear out my elbow”. Fuck you, pussy. You are selling you body and your time to the company you work for. Making reasonable efforts to reduce long term effects of working in a shop are fine, ear and eye protection as examples. But a fucking air hammer because you are worried about elbow pain 40 years down the road? Where do we draw the line? Do you wear a hard hat too because you might bonk your head and get a boo boo? Grow a pair and swing a hammer.

I have done absolutely horrific things to my body, and I have all the scars and pain to prove it. It’s all a result of choices I made and how I chose to live my life. Every time you go to work you are selling your time and your body to the company you work for. It’s a fact. If preserving your body, and living a perfectly safe life is your biggest priority, fucking quit trying to be a mechanic in the rust belt, wrap yourself in bubble wrap, and start punching the clock at some office job with a bunch of other pussies. You are attempting to work in a field that doesn’t walk hand in hand with the lifestyle you have chosen to live. You will not be successful, you will not be happy. Put the tools down and let someone else who is willing do the job.

You are a lazy, ball baby, pussy.

“But it’s rusty” - every other mechanic in the rust belt deals with it

”they’re not doing it by the book, that’s why they get it done faster than me”- correct, they are doing it efficiently, which is why they make more than you. That’s a you problem. Either figure it out, or fuck off. Pick your battle, not every bolt needs wire wheeled until it’s shiny and new

1. Why fight with rusty shit a second time when the vehicle comes back for more work. Too many techs have the mindset of “Oh I’ll never see that car again” and it bites them in the ass. That’s why I use the “glitter paste”, to make life easier. If you wanna create more problems for yourself be my guest.

2. So I’ll ask you, when is it appropriate to charge for dealing with rust. When is your time being spend fighting with it for free “worth” the extra labor charge?

3. If you wanna prove how much of a badass you are by swinging a hammer like a caveman and wearing your body out by the time you’re 50 be my guest. I’ll let the tools do the work and not go home sore everyday. Still a physical job but you can make it easier on yourself without sacrificing too much time. I’m not a whore that “sells my body” to the company LMAO.

4. I am maximizing efficiency, both on this job and in the future. Having to take a hammer to the rims because they’re corroded to the hubs every time the vehicle comes in is a WASTE OF TIME. Not to mention efficiency. So that’s where the anti seize/ fluid film comes in.

 

[LSxFJ]

A couple labor guides have now added a "severe service" category, we quote based off that if it's a rusty bag of shit. We won't quote a job without seeing the vehicle in person and showing the customer in person what we're up against. Usually .5 per broken bolt & that's stated in the estimate. You eventually get handle on how to deal with rusty/corroded cars, it's really not that big of a deal. Once and a while you loose your ass on one, but that's life

 

[jimmy123456789]

A couple labor guides have now added a "severe service" category, we quote based off that if it's a rusty bag of shit. We won't quote a job without seeing the vehicle in person and showing the customer in person what we're up against. Usually .5 per broken bolt & that's stated in the estimate. You eventually get handle on how to deal with rusty/corroded cars, it's really not that big of a deal. Once and a while you loose your ass on one, but that's life

I agree losing your ass on some jobs is life. What I don't get is the indignation from customers (and members here) at the very notion that you should even charge for dealing with rust at all. Your shop obviously had no trouble billing for these type of issues. More shops need to do the same.