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Best stock class 4600/4500 Base

The EMC class is such a weird conundrum of vehicles. 4800’s qualify fastest and tend to run the desert the fastest. 4500 stays in the middle and poor 4600, slowest in the desert don’t get a chance to get around the upper class cars that break, can’t drive, or just don’t work for what they’re doing.
 
Definitely put a 15,000 # winch on that superduty. Probably better have one in the bed for pulling it backwards too


giant sticker on the side "Team Forceps: We'll remove your bloody plug!"



The spindle bolts broke on one side was what stopped them out at cougar buttes. They got it fixed and then timed out.

well, spindle bolts is kind of an odd thing to break, bummer they timed out.
 
well, spindle bolts is kind of an odd thing to break, bummer they timed out.

There's a decent number of pictures of desert broncos with stock spindles held on with ten or twelve (original pattern is five or six) studs or bolts.

Yet another one of those mistakes you don't make if you are intimately familiar with the platform and have the time to test and tune all the shenanigans out of your build. Same goes for the radius arm.

A lot of these guys are buying a particular vehicle to build ~2yr before they race it or they're buying an already raced vehicle that someone else built and re-working it over the course of a year or two. That doesn't really leave a lot of time for eliminating these sorts of weak points. Even if you know you should double bolt the spindle there's still a million other things demanding your limited time.

Would I have doubled the number of bolts on my spindles? Probably not until I broke one. But after seeing this year's race you can bet your ass if I ever decide I want to race a TTB vehicle that I'll do so.
 
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I didn’t know about the spindle bolt issues either and thought I considered myself a TTB guy. Maybe a couple miles an hour less on the jump and he’d have made it to spooners.
 
I didn’t know about the spindle bolt issues either and thought I considered myself a TTB guy. Maybe a couple miles an hour less on the jump and he’d have made it to spooners.

I wouldn't call it an "issue" but they're a lower current fuse than the rest of the beam system (once you've made better radius arms and plated the stock beams) by a large enough margin that over the years many people have felt the need to turn spindles out of fancy alloys and graft D50 outers onto 44 beams (with the latter being more common in my observation).

I wonder if air bumps would have saved him. Just something so that the bump stop isn't quite so hard.
 
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There's a decent number of pictures of desert broncos with stock spindles held on with ten or twelve (original pattern is five or six) studs or bolts.

Yet another one of those mistakes you don't make if you are intimately familiar with the platform and have the time to test and tune all the shenanigans out of your build. Same goes for the radius arm.

There's a reason I'm running super duty D60/fabbed knuckles/Spidertrax ultimate unit bearings on my D35 beams :laughing: no way was I keeping the stock RBV stuff and if I'm doing a cut/turn sorta thing anyway, I might as well put modern strong stuff onto it, because fuck spindles in general.

The radius arms I built are pretty stout, the driver side bent a little when the t-case locked up at 60 MPH and the axle tried to roll under the truck (2" 0.25 wall), but beyond that they've been fine. One thing that I overlooked though is that the driver side one does way more work than the passenger one. Both locate the beams but the driver side is handling all the drive torque for both wheels while the passenger side only handles braking torque for that side. I built them identically and in reality probably didn't have to.

When the driver side bent it also broke the welded nuts for the 3/4" bolts inside the beams. Keeping those bolts tight has been a challenge. I have Nordlocks on it now and they seem to keep it together, and I'm fine with that for our local races, but if I were to run EMC with it I'd probably weld the radius arms in place or at least find some additional mechanical connection points.
 
When the driver side bent it also broke the welded nuts for the 3/4" bolts inside the beams. Keeping those bolts tight has been a challenge. I have Nordlocks on it now and they seem to keep it together, and I'm fine with that for our local races, but if I were to run EMC with it I'd probably weld the radius arms in place or at least find some additional mechanical connection points.

tab off the back of the beam and use a bolt. would be easy to refrofit what you got

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There's a reason I'm running super duty D60/fabbed knuckles/Spidertrax ultimate unit bearings on my D35 beams :laughing: no way was I keeping the stock RBV stuff and if I'm doing a cut/turn sorta thing anyway, I might as well put modern strong stuff onto it, because fuck spindles in general.

The radius arms I built are pretty stout, the driver side bent a little when the t-case locked up at 60 MPH and the axle tried to roll under the truck (2" 0.25 wall), but beyond that they've been fine. One thing that I overlooked though is that the driver side one does way more work than the passenger one. Both locate the beams but the driver side is handling all the drive torque for both wheels while the passenger side only handles braking torque for that side. I built them identically and in reality probably didn't have to.

When the driver side bent it also broke the welded nuts for the 3/4" bolts inside the beams. Keeping those bolts tight has been a challenge. I have Nordlocks on it now and they seem to keep it together, and I'm fine with that for our local races, but if I were to run EMC with it I'd probably weld the radius arms in place or at least find some additional mechanical connection points.

Since the stock bolts are 1-1/8 head you can cut up cheapo hitch ball wrenches and bolt those on as retaining tabs to keep the lower bolt from spinning. It's like $25 and three hours of your life you'll never get back. :laughing:

The plan is to just slip four 1/2 pipes (5/8 ID) over a set of D50 U bolts, bolt it to the beam and then weld then copy the D50 U bolt plate template onto some flat steel and build my arms off those flanges and plate the shit out of the beam somewhere along the way. I figure that should nicely distribute the force around the beam and I can run D50 u bolts and lower shock mounts. Coil mount can bolt on using the same four bolts. Since I have zero idea where my lower shock is gonna be, where I'm gonna run a bump stop, whether I'll use coils or coil-overs, etc. being able to revise the geometry in that area by swapping a simple plate should make my life easy. But I'm building a trail truck, not a race vehicle so my needs are different.

For EMC welding the arms on and just adding saddle gussets to increase the area of beam they tie to is definitely the way to go.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do for radius arm material. I kind of like the idea of square tube since it has better compression and bending strength than round and packs a hell of a lot more steel into an equivalent diameter.

I am definitely going to inboard the radius arm ends though. I think the wheel geometry benefits of doing that greatly outweighs how much it fucks you in the steering department.

I've gone back and forth on knuckles a lot but I think the D50 knuckle will be enough for me. I can always plate it if I have issues. My plan is to do the typical D50 knuckles on D44 swap and then hog out the beam windows as much as necessary to make room for the shaft while keeping close to stock RBV width.
 
There's a reason I'm running super duty D60/fabbed knuckles/Spidertrax ultimate unit bearings on my D35 beams :laughing: no way was I keeping the stock RBV stuff and if I'm doing a cut/turn sorta thing anyway, I might as well put modern strong stuff onto it, because fuck spindles in general.

I tried looking for your old thread but I am having issues finding it, do you have a link to when you built the beams and knuckles?

Has TTB been given a fair shot in the Hammers yet? I know the FSB had a spindle and radius arm failure, the blue ranger that raced 4600 this year broke the front passenger/driver axle shaft and cracked his transmission before ending in cougar buttes.
 
I tried looking for your old thread but I am having issues finding it, do you have a link to when you built the beams and knuckles?

Has TTB been given a fair shot in the Hammers yet? I know the FSB had a spindle and radius arm failure, the blue ranger that raced 4600 this year broke the front passenger/driver axle shaft and cracked his transmission before ending in cougar buttes.

The Torchmate car Jesse Haines built about 10 years ago was a pretty solid attempt, but that was the 4400 class (https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/2011-torchmate-ttb-ultra4-build-thread.924520/). I believe it is still racing as there was a TTB 4400 I saw during qualifying.

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There was a Bronco II that raced 4600 several years ago that got a write up in Petersen's, but I don't believe it was particularly successful https://www.fourwheeler.com/features/131-1307-1987-ford-bronco-ii/

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I tried looking for your old thread but I am having issues finding it, do you have a link to when you built the beams and knuckles?

Has TTB been given a fair shot in the Hammers yet? I know the FSB had a spindle and radius arm failure, the blue ranger that raced 4600 this year broke the front passenger/driver axle shaft and cracked his transmission before ending in cougar buttes.

dang, i was wondering what was up with the ranger. :(
 
Since the stock bolts are 1-1/8 head you can cut up cheapo hitch ball wrenches and bolt those on as retaining tabs to keep the lower bolt from spinning. It's like $25 and three hours of your life you'll never get back. :laughing:

The plan is to just slip four 1/2 pipes (5/8 ID) over a set of D50 U bolts, bolt it to the beam and then weld then copy the D50 U bolt plate template onto some flat steel and build my arms off those flanges and plate the shit out of the beam somewhere along the way. I figure that should nicely distribute the force around the beam and I can run D50 u bolts and lower shock mounts. Coil mount can bolt on using the same four bolts. Since I have zero idea where my lower shock is gonna be, where I'm gonna run a bump stop, whether I'll use coils or coil-overs, etc. being able to revise the geometry in that area by swapping a simple plate should make my life easy. But I'm building a trail truck, not a race vehicle so my needs are different.

For EMC welding the arms on and just adding saddle gussets to increase the area of beam they tie to is definitely the way to go.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do for radius arm material. I kind of like the idea of square tube since it has better compression and bending strength than round and packs a hell of a lot more steel into an equivalent diameter.

I am definitely going to inboard the radius arm ends though. I think the wheel geometry benefits of doing that greatly outweighs how much it fucks you in the steering department.

I've gone back and forth on knuckles a lot but I think the D50 knuckle will be enough for me. I can always plate it if I have issues. My plan is to do the typical D50 knuckles on D44 swap and then hog out the beam windows as much as necessary to make room for the shaft while keeping close to stock RBV width.

All those words, yet you'll never start building anything :flipoff2::flipoff2:
 
All those words, yet you'll never start building anything :flipoff2::flipoff2:

Suspension work comes after driveline. Driveline comes after machine shop. Machine shop comes after loader and shitboxes. Somewhere in there I renovate my house and build a new garage. Shit doesn't get done fast when you've got a dozen projects in parallel. But in order to make efficient use of resources you gotta have a million things going on. I see why it takes sceep forever to do shit.

I have all the hard parts for the beam project. I'm just not "there" yet.
 
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Suspension work comes after driveline. Driveline comes after machine shop. Machine shop comes after loader and shitboxes. Somewhere in there I renovate my house and build a new garage. Shit doesn't get done fast when you've got a dozen projects in parallel. But in order to make efficient use of resources you gotta have a million things going on. I see why it takes sceep forever to do shit.

I have all the hard parts for the beam project. I'm just not "there" yet.

Yeah I get that. Too many projects get old fast
 
Centre mount PTO driven capstan winch FTMFW :smokin:

I can't find it now but there was a vertical drum worm gear winch on CL near me awhile back. The drum was like 8" tall and the edges to hold the cable were like 30" diameter and it was meant to mount between the frame rails on a standard 34" truck frame. The worm gear housing was like a foot across so safe to assume the pull with a single wrap on there was pretty substantial.
 
Bumping this ancient thread up.

What about a reg cab short bed 07+ Tundra?

Add a long travel IFS kit and rear leaves with pimpy shocks and 35s for 4600?

They're 126.8in wheelbase, great reliable engine and trans, 1-ton strength rear diff already (maybe build a Ruff stuff housing with FF ends though? Or just truss the shit out of the stock one).

34 spline 9in HP IFS front and I believe 36 spline rear axles with 10.5in ring gear. ARBs are available for both.

Camburg makes some nice fabricated spindles for the front too :homer:

Realistically you could fab up a lot of the stuff needed, or just order stuff off the shelf if you were so inclined.
 
I think the front is going to be the biggest issue, if you can build a rock solid ifs, you should win about everything. Bonus points for a kick ass winch and self recovery skills
 
Bumping this ancient thread up.

What about a reg cab short bed 07+ Tundra?

Add a long travel IFS kit and rear leaves with pimpy shocks and 35s for 4600?

They're 126.8in wheelbase, great reliable engine and trans, 1-ton strength rear diff already (maybe build a Ruff stuff housing with FF ends though? Or just truss the shit out of the stock one).

34 spline 9in HP IFS front and I believe 36 spline rear axles with 10.5in ring gear. ARBs are available for both.

Camburg makes some nice fabricated spindles for the front too :homer:

Realistically you could fab up a lot of the stuff needed, or just order stuff off the shelf if you were so inclined.
Only problem I can see is finding one and if it meets the 1000 units per year.
 
What about a reg cab short bed 07+ Tundra?
Other than more horsepower in bone stock form what does that get you as a base platform that a fullsize bronco doesn't?

You can build a hell of a bronco with nothing but an F250 doner and a fat bank account divided up three ways (engine builder, trans builder, camburg/autofab. This has all been tried. Fullsize rigs on 35s just don't have the relative ground clearance requires to deal with the rocks without a bunch of time wasted with the winch.
 
Funny how everyone keeps trying to say IFS and V8, when a 4cyl leaf rig keeps winning :laughing:

Also, remember tcase and axles are unlimited as long as suspension style stays the same.

A TJ or JK with jhf portals would probably be hard to touch, short of the new $200k bronco I've heard about :homer:

I think a 1st gen tacoma single cab or 3rd gen 4runner with a healthy 3rz would be a fun rig with out being too terribly expensive. Or a 2nd gen tacoma for the better IFS.
 
Other than more horsepower in bone stock form what does that get you as a base platform that a fullsize bronco doesn't?

You can build a hell of a bronco with nothing but an F250 doner and a fat bank account divided up three ways (engine builder, trans builder, camburg/autofab. This has all been tried. Fullsize rigs on 35s just don't have the relative ground clearance requires to deal with the rocks without a bunch of time wasted with the winch.

IFS with coilovers vs TTB. So "better" but kinda not, unless you go all out. TTB is way easier to make beefy for the everyday guy.

I don't think any full size stands a chance.

I'd still like to do a early ranger or exploder with a D50/10.25 for a cheap, fun, durable rig.
 
Bumping this ancient thread up.

What about a reg cab short bed 07+ Tundra?

Add a long travel IFS kit and rear leaves with pimpy shocks and 35s for 4600?

They're 126.8in wheelbase, great reliable engine and trans, 1-ton strength rear diff already (maybe build a Ruff stuff housing with FF ends though? Or just truss the shit out of the stock one).

34 spline 9in HP IFS front and I believe 36 spline rear axles with 10.5in ring gear. ARBs are available for both.

Camburg makes some nice fabricated spindles for the front too :homer:

Realistically you could fab up a lot of the stuff needed, or just order stuff off the shelf if you were so inclined.

126.8" wheelbase and an 80" body width will be a giant trail tampon on 35" tires. How good the stock axles are is a bit irrelevant in 4600 since the axles are unlimited (just have to match the stock suspension configuration type). You can swap all that stuff into a smaller package like a Tacoma or Ranger if the Tundra axles really are the shit.

While V8 power would be nice I think it would be largely offset by the additional weight of the Tundra over smaller platforms. Power is not as much of an advantage as a lot of people think in my opinion. With 4600, the suspension is the limitation on speed in the desert more so than power. Having more power will make it easier to one-shot some of the soft and steep hill climbs as well as open up passing opportunities, but I don't think it will make a huge impact on your average speed through the desert. Jesse Haines won the 2020 King of the Hammers with ~125HP and a top speed of 60MPH beacause he had stupid low axle gearing with his portals and the diesel couldn't rev high enough to go faster :laughing:

Only problem I can see is finding one and if it meets the 1000 units per year.

That rule applies to Make and Model and not specific configurations of a model as far as I understand. Of course, that rule doesn't apply if you are someone special…

Funny how everyone keeps trying to say IFS and V8, when a 4cyl leaf rig keeps winning :laughing:

Also, remember tcase and axles are unlimited as long as suspension style stays the same.

A TJ or JK with jhf portals would probably be hard to touch, short of the new $200k bronco I've heard about :homer:

I think a 1st gen tacoma single cab or 3rd gen 4runner with a healthy 3rz would be a fun rig with out being too terribly expensive. Or a 2nd gen tacoma for the better IFS.

This is spot on. An IFS rig has never finished EMC at KOH in the 4600 class, much less won it :laughing: I don't think it is the advantage a lot of people want to believe. Of course that is likely to change with Brad Lovell and his mega buck 4600 Bronco Ford built to basically buy the 4600 win as a marketing stunt for the new Bronco :laughing:

It isn't your average IFS though since it has some fancy 74Weld portals grafted on. I think any small, light platform you can effectively run portals on will do pretty killer since the 35" tire requirement really cripples the class in the rocks.

I don't think any full size stands a chance.

Exactly. It is more than a matter of being willing to destroy the body. The size will physically hang you up in the rocks and stop you in your tracks on 35" tires. The only advantage fullsize rigs generally have given the class rules is bigger engines, but as I discussed above, that isn't a huge advantage given the suspension limitations of the class and will be offset to some degree by the additional weight that will come along with the fullsize platform.

The only fullsizes that might have a chance would be short wheelbase ones like a Bronco, but even then, I think it will be a struggle to get through the rocks. Even with a kickass winch and great co-driver, you are not going to finish in time if you have to winch your way through all of the rock trails.
 
Shit, didn't know lovell was building a ringer. The damn savvy jeep did well exactly 1 time, however

They moved up to 4500 and killed it. It was demoralizing having Currie pass us heading into town for the win as we rode the struggle bus with an empty talent tank trying to finish lap 1…
 
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