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Alec Baldwin Shot a Lady
- Thread starter Ted_Kaczynski
- Start date
ChiScouter
Red Skull Member
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Could you please start out by outlining the current rules and practices , then point out the flaws in them and then the corrective actions you would take?
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
I don't know if there is an industry wide rule or practices, but I did point out the flaws in this situation and provided a suggestion for corrective action.
Was it too much for you to read?
ChiScouter
Red Skull Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2020
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Since you don't know the rules or even if there are any then you don't even know if they followed any of them or not providing they even exist yet you know that they are badly flawed and need to be improved on.
It wasn't too much for me to read but it was hard for me to comprehend that someone with so little knowledge about something could be such an expert with the knowledge on how to correct rules and procedures that he doesn't know anything about. Its ok your not the only one around here like that.
Are you going to tell us how to fix things or keep all your wisdom to yourself?
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
I don't know why your so hung up on the rules. If it's that all important to you, why don't you do some research and report back to the class.
I merely commented on how I think this situation could have been prevented. Even though I've worked on a couple movies/commercials/specials, that was not the focus of my career, like less than 2% of all the gigs I did, so I'm not going to spout off about something I don't know, unlike a lot of folks here.
Provience
Kill!
I agree with your sentiment. This is rare enough that there doesn't need to be shit for a rule change.
Less than 1 person a decade dies due to movie guns. It's pretty acceptable and every death was already a violation of existing rules at some point.
Hire competence
300sniper
Gun Plumber
While I'm certainly not for government interference, I don't understand why everyone on a movie set doesn't demand "inert" gun props, that can not possibly fire "real" ammo. It really baffles me that a real functioning gun, and live ammo was allowed anywhere near a set.
Provience
Kill!
Budget would be my biggest guess.
What was that movie...once upon a time in Mexico or whatever the first oof that series was called. They couldn't afford real prop stuff and everything would only fire a blank once, so they had to audio dub in any multiple fires
great movie though, I'd be sad to know it never existed because they couldn't get real proper prop guns or whatever
300sniper
Gun Plumber
Oh, and where's the FBI drone footage of this?......
dntsdad
Central California
You are right. My nor my buddies are rich, famous, leftie actors.
Most other people WOULD have visited a jail
Depends. Is he a lefty actor with a political agenda favoring the media narratives or is he not?
No? Then there would be massive "public pressure" to have him arrested and his life ruined.
Provience
Kill!
Imagine if Clinton Eastwood had this mishap
300sniper
Gun Plumber
You've got examples of this, right? Or are you just speculating that a poor no-name aspiring actor would be in jail pending an investigation?
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
100% That's why they went with the daughter of the famous armorer, that's why the crew had to stay in shitty motels, that's why part of the crew walked off the job. It was a trainwreck from the start.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
It's really not a big deal, there's a big market for non-lethal training rounds and equipment. DozerDan82 might know a thing or two about that.
Modify the action with an offset firing pin that can't fire a standard off-the-shelf primer, get blanks or non-lethal rounds loaded to either make noise and cycle the action, shoot paint or soft projectile etc, have at it. Perfectly real gun in all aspects except it can only fire the specific rounds you made for it.
In the scope of a film budget that seems like a really small percentage to me. Could be wrong.
Provience
Kill!
May not cost much, but you have to know as well
dntsdad
Central California
I am speculating that most ANYONE that pulled the trigger and killed someone would have gone to jail instead of being allowed to leave the state to go house shopping. Could they have bailed out immediately? Probably but tragic accidents are rarely just backslapped and "investigated" for normal people.
Are you making the case that my buddy nor I would have been arrested in the same situation?
300sniper
Gun Plumber
Again, are in in your workplace where your job is to point prop guns and pull the trigger?
dntsdad
Central California
Nope.
Are you saying that your responsibility for your actions end at this job?
If that is the case, then why hasn't the armored at least been arrested? Or is nobody responsible because it is a movie?
Are you saying that your responsibility for your actions end at this job?
If that is the case, then why hasn't the armored at least been arrested? Or is nobody responsible because it is a movie?
300sniper
Gun Plumber
Just because you don’t like someone and want his actions to be criminal, doesn’t make his actions criminal.
300sniper
Gun Plumber
And do you think every single accidental shooting in this country netted a criminal charge? Really?
dntsdad
Central California
Never said that it did.
Nope again. But I will guess that most of them were allowed to leave the scene outside the back of a cop car not allowed to leave the state at will within days of the incident.
300sniper
Gun Plumber
You guess?
dntsdad
Central California
Yes, I have no desire or ability to comb through the records of every shooting ever.
Also, what you classified as "accidental" I would state as "negligent".
I am not a lawyer but those seem like huge distinctions to me. Are they legally distinct? I don't know and that is where I maybe am wrong on this.
Accidents happen but a series of events that causes the death of someone when that could have prevented at multiple stops along the way is not an accident in my mind but instead negligence and for that, someone needs to be held accountable.
I believe that the person pulling the trigger is ultimately and always where the buck stops but in this instance it seems that there are more people that should be as well.
Again, if this happened to a group of people camping, what would happen?
I would guess, because its fucking hypothetical, not what happened in this instance.
plym49.2
Sasquatch49.2
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 550
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- 405
Most all of these mental gymnastics are pointless. It's like not wearing a seat belt. 99.99999% of the time it does not matter. But get in a wreck, and suddenly it does. Bottom line is that he pointed a gun at a person and pulled the trigger.
300sniper
Gun Plumber
Maybe look up New Mexico’s statutes on homicide, manslaughter and murder? It may get there if that’s where the investigation takes them, but if you read the statutes, mainly 30-2-5. Excusable homicide, then come back and say anyone other than a celebrity would be arrested at the scene.
Edit: I’ve no doubt he hill be held accountable in a civil suit and pay heavily. Criminally? We’ll see.
dntsdad
Central California
OK. I did
30-2-5. Excusable homicide.
Homicide is excusable in the following cases:
A. when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act, by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent; or
B. when committed by accident or misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, if no undue advantage is taken, nor any dangerous weapon used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.
Again, for me (and I am nobody) this does not qualify. Again, I don't see this as an accident. This is negligence.
An accident is driving down the road and a person jumps in front of you on foot and you kill them.
Pointing a weapon that you know is real and killing someone is not an accident in my eyes but negligence.
Will the law see it that way, I guess like you said, we will see. Again, I would stand my ground that it depends on who you are. A young gangbanger wannabe? Nope. A "redneck" hunter? Nope. A Silicon Valley exec? Probably. A left wing movie star? Almost certainly.
30-2-5. Excusable homicide.
Homicide is excusable in the following cases:
A. when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act, by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent; or
B. when committed by accident or misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, if no undue advantage is taken, nor any dangerous weapon used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.
Again, for me (and I am nobody) this does not qualify. Again, I don't see this as an accident. This is negligence.
An accident is driving down the road and a person jumps in front of you on foot and you kill them.
Pointing a weapon that you know is real and killing someone is not an accident in my eyes but negligence.
Will the law see it that way, I guess like you said, we will see. Again, I would stand my ground that it depends on who you are. A young gangbanger wannabe? Nope. A "redneck" hunter? Nope. A Silicon Valley exec? Probably. A left wing movie star? Almost certainly.
300sniper
Gun Plumber
At this point, you’re assuming he knew the gun was real and could fire real ammunition. That’s what investigations find out. And then, the evidence will need to be strong enough that they feel they can get a conviction under NM law as written.
My point is just because you or I think someone is, or should be criminal, doesn’t make it so.
So . . . put a cork in the torch oil & throw the pitchfork back in the shed for now?
ChiScouter
Red Skull Member
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I think you did spout off on something you don't know a thing about, thats why I called you out. Instead of doing your own research to support your position you come back here and suggest that I do it for you. I missed the post where you had specific recommendations on how to improve firearm handling and still make a film. Can you please post it up again.I don't know why your so hung up on the rules. If it's that all important to you, why don't you do some research and report back to the class.
There was one nice guy who posted some really great real world info in this thread, and another more sarcastic one who seemed to know something about the subject but I think their posts have mostly been lost in the board meltdown or ignored. Both of them are probably shaking their heads when reading the thread now and don't feel like repeating the same stuff all over again.
Away from making fun of Doc, my guess is that charges may come to 3 of them but the prosecutors office has to do a lot of legwork before they know who to charge with what. To me they would first be going over the contracts the people involved signed regarding firearm handling, the firearm safety rules handed out to the crew members involved, and the way firearms are typically handled on a set before they could decide who was at fault, etc, etc, etc.. Then can you translate breaking rules into criminal charges or is all that previous stuff moot and they proceed as if it was a couple of people clowning around at a party, or what? Does this get looked at as an unsafe workplace situation or as people playing with guns? Is that a civil or criminal matter? These are rhetorical questions but that is how I am looking at the situation. Aside from the irate legal minds there must be some other lawyers discussing this in blogs somewhere.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
From post #392. Don't like my suggestions? Fine with me;
".We all know the Keanu Reeves story, but obviously he's the exception. Sure it would be nice and even very doable to give everyone on set a firearms safety brief, but I don't see that happening. It needs to be only two people touch the guns, the armorer and the actor. In my industry Intel buys a lot of my product and every weld is signed by the installer with his employee number, total accountability, so if there is a weld failure they know who to talk to, the installer and the supervisor that inspected the weld."