9" vs D60, continued....

[Aisin]

Redline shockproof is nothing but dyed 250 weight gear oil. Real men use 600 weight

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Let me spin the problem differently, what else is out there that would offer similar strength to a 14 bolt for similar prices ?
The Tundra third is one of them, but aftermarket support is lacking.
What else ?

Not much?? For the price range anyway, there are rare ones but thats usually low aftermarket support and high cost.

A dana 70hd, 4" tubes, 1/2" wall. Has no 3rd pinion support but has higher available ratios, weighs around the weight of the 14 bolt.

​​​​​​Would make for an easy rear steer axle as it would accept 3" tube for inner seals and inner C's. One could sleeve the whole tube and have 1" axle tubes

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

I’m rear steering my crawler as we type. Search Skittles.

I like the 99-02 Super duty stuff... but I do like portal stuff better....

I wheel with a buggy running 9.5 LC's and they are great and take a beating but I did find his 3rd member build cost to be pretty expensive and as with all the yota 3rds lacking high ratios.

I'm going to read your thread now. Do you have to commit to inner C's to run either the 99-02 or the 05+ or does one work for both?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Not much?? For the price range anyway, there are rare ones but thats usually low aftermarket support and high cost.

A dana 70hd, 4" tubes, 1/2" wall. Has no 3rd pinion support but has higher available ratios, weighs around the weight of the 14 bolt.

​​​​​​Would make for an easy rear steer axle as it would accept 3" tube for inner seals and inner C's. One could sleeve the whole tube and have 1" axle tubes

70hd is just a dana 80 without the strength of a dana 80

They are massive and really heavy, fucking nobody needs 4" x 500 wall tubes. Way heavier than your average 14b. Then still has the same pinion spline as a D60.

The only advantage they have is they use the same carrier as the D80, so maybe a hair more deflection resistance? Not worth the size and weight imo. D70U is the one to have, especially if you can find the mid 80s Ford 35 spline version.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

70hd is just a dana 80 without the strength of a dana 80

They are massive and really heavy, fucking nobody needs 4" x 500 wall tubes. Way heavier than your average 14b. Then still has the same pinion spline as a D60.

The only advantage they have is they use the same carrier as the D80, so maybe a hair more deflection resistance? Not worth the size and weight imo. D70U is the one to have, especially if you can find the mid 80s Ford 35 spline version.

Asked for a cheap alternative :rolleyes:. I went with the 70hd, figured more support for it than the 80? and way easier to find then the 70u. But I do agree the Ford 35 spline teardrop style housing is the one to have. 82-85 Ford f-250/350 diesel usually always had them.

Here in the rust belt most anything that old is tough to come by in junkyards, usually buy axles laying in weeds for years from guys that said they were going to use them 35 years ago and now want beer money. Most trucks that old are long gone, rotted out, crushed.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Asked for a cheap alternative :rolleyes:. I went with the 70hd, figured more support for it than the 80? and way easier to find then the 70u. But I do agree the Ford 35 spline teardrop style housing is the one to have. 82-85 Ford f-250/350 diesel usually always had them.

Here in the rust belt most anything that old is tough to come by in junkyards, usually buy axles laying in weeds for years from guys that said they were going to use them 35 years ago and now want beer money. Most trucks that old are long gone, rotted out, crushed.

Only advantage is 5.86+ r&p, which as you are learning, most don't care about. Dana 80 should have just as many or more options as the 70hd. 70s can be a pain since every model is a little different. The only thing that stays common is the r&p. Bearings vary a lot.

But yes, cheap. My buddy had 3 he couldn't sell for $50 ea. Like 14 bolts were before people figured out you could shave them.

Another one often over looked is the sterling. 10.5" r&p found in basically every 8 lug Ford from the mid 80s till just a few years ago.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Another one often over looked is the sterling. 10.5" r&p found in basically every 8 lug Ford from the mid 80s till just a few years ago.

I considered it, seemed like a good option to match gm60 front and especially because I read on the old board someone mentioning factory 7.17 gears for it but I could not for the life of the of me find any of these gears and no other information on them. This is supposedly the ford part # E5TW4209FA.

After some good searching I figured it wasn't worth the effort unless I bought a few sets.

 

[Bebop]

I'm going to read your thread now. Do you have to commit to inner C's to run either the 99-02 or the 05+ or does one work for both?

It's either or. They aren't compatible one another.

 

[Aisin]

I considered it, seemed like a good option to match gm60 front and especially because I read on the old board someone mentioning factory 7.17 gears for it but I could not for the life of the of me find any of these gears and no other information on them. This is supposedly the ford part # E5TW4209FA.

After some good searching I figured it wasn't worth the effort unless I bought a few sets.

No one ever mentioned 7.17 gears for Sterling axles on the old site. 5.38s are as low as you can go.

 

[arse_sidewards]

No one ever mentioned 7.17 gears for Sterling axles on the old site.

You know how I know you didn't Google that part number?

 

['84 Bronco II]

Let me spin the problem differently, what else is out there that would offer similar strength to a 14 bolt for similar prices ?
The Tundra third is one of them, but aftermarket support is lacking.
What else ?

I guess I'll bite since this thread doesn't seem to have much of a point anyway

Around here, you can pick up any rear end you want for ~$125 out of the junkyard, doesn't matter what it is. Older stuff that doesn't show up in the junkyards any more can command a higher price, but Dana 60s,70s,80s, 14 bolts, Sterlings, and AAMs are all plentiful in the yards.

I know the 14 Bolt has the all-mighty 3rd pinion support, but I'd put the Dana 70 and Ford Sterling 10.25/10.5 in the same league strength-wise. They all have 10.5" ring gears; although I would give the 14 Bolt the edge in gear strength, and put the Sterling in between the 14 Bolt and Dana 70 since it has a 31 spline pinion (37 spline in 2011+ axles) vs 29 for the Dana 70. I don't hang out with Rock bouncers, but I haven't heard about many issues with gear failures from guys running any 10"+ axles. They all have ~1.5" diameter axle shafts. The 14 Bolt and Sterling have the same gearing limitation (5.38) compared to the Dana 70 that can go down to 7.17. The Sterling and Dana 70U have much better clearance without shaving and can be shaved themselves. I know several people running Sterlings with nothing more than a set of aftermarket gears (welded stock carriers) in their buggies on 40-43" stickies and V8 power that aren't having problems. These are buggies that get run in high-traction places like Sand Hollow and Farmington regularly.

The new Dana M275 and M300 available in the '17+ Superduty trucks seems like they could be interesting:

 

[Aisin]

You know how I know you didn't Google that part number?

I did. It sure as fuck doesn’t bring up any Sterling 7.17 gear sets. That post from the other site is from a year before I joined.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I did. It sure as fuck doesn’t bring up any Sterling 7.17 gear sets. That post from the other site is from a year before I joined.

Nobody said you could buy them. Just that people were talking about it on the old board.

It's an old part number from back when catalogs were still a thing. A couple catalogs probably got printed with the part number before the reason to manufacture 7.17s evaporated.

 

[JR4X]

You obviously know that the rigidity of the housing can make a large difference. Why aftermarket D60 housings hold better than old stock stuff. Same with 9". Why would a 14b be any different?

Any of you numerous broken 14b buddies start out with something new or at least from a newer rig?

Yeah I know a couple people that tried Torq 14’s. Loren Healy tried racing on them and they just weren’t reliable. He built a brand new car around them for 2011. The main caps would break letting the carrier loose. Till he got sick of that and replaced them with spidertrax 9”s mid year. Lubes Wasinin had one and I believe his problem was the same. When the 3rd broke, he couldn’t get the axle shafts out and the 3rd wouldn’t come out of the housing. He replaced it with a junkyard 14B.

When I broke the R&P in the CRD high pinion 60 rear in my Jeep I genuinely looked at building a Torq 14 to replace the 60. I don’t want junkyard housings, and I don’t need high pinion rear. It didn’t take long even then to know I needed to steer clear of Torq. 14’s are strong, I just don’t care for the trade offs required to use them. F-that.

And now we know that GW-10’s are competitive with aftermarket 14B dropouts. $2,500 for a bare torque 3rd??? You still have to supply gears, carrier/locker and bearings. You can get a complete True-hi 9” with a spool for $2,200 and when you give them your money, you will actually get the product you paid for.

 

[Tech Tim]

70hd is just a dana 80 without the strength of a dana 80

Agree there.

D70U is the one to have, especially if you can find the mid 80s Ford 35 spline version.

iirc, the Dana 70U has a smaller inner pinion bearing and the truck pull guys have found that to be the weak link.

One to definitely stay away from is the D70-3, they are somewhat rare in pick-up trucks, more common in cab chassis applications like ambulances, box trucks etc. They have a weird ring gear offset, so you have to do some mixing, matching and grinding to put deeper gears in.

Yeah I know a couple people that tried Torq 14’s. Loren Healy tried racing on them and they just weren’t reliable. He built a brand new car around them for 2011. The main caps would break letting the carrier loose. Till he got sick of that and replaced them with spidertrax 9”s mid year. Lubes Wasinin had one and I believe his problem was the same. When the 3rd broke, he couldn’t get the axle shafts out and the 3rd wouldn’t come out of the housing. He replaced it with a junkyard 14B.

When I broke the R&P in the CRD high pinion 60 rear in my Jeep I genuinely looked at building a Torq 14 to replace the 60. I don’t want junkyard housings, and I don’t need high pinion rear. It didn’t take long even then to know I needed to steer clear of Torq. 14’s are strong, I just don’t care for the trade offs required to use them. F-that.

And now we know that GW-10’s are competitive with aftermarket 14B dropouts. $2,500 for a bare torque 3rd??? You still have to supply gears, carrier/locker and bearings. You can get a complete True-hi 9” with a spool for $2,200 and when you give them your money, you will actually get the product you paid for.

Healey was using the Solid 14s, not the Torq 14s and yes, the early ones did have some main cap issues. Have never seen a main cap failure in the Torq 14s.

Comparing GW-10s to Torq 14s is silly. You can call GW and get one of their diffs pretty quick. Call Torq, they'll take your money and you'll be waiting like Doug.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

No one ever mentioned 7.17 gears for Sterling axles on the old site. 5.38s are as low as you can go.

1985 Sterling 10.25 Gears | Pirate 4x4 https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/19...-gears.564734/

10.50 7.17 Gears | Pirate 4x4
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/10...-gears.373831/

:rolleyes:There were a few more, no one linked to a 7.17 gear to buy but it was mentioned and no one disputed it in typical pirate fashion so thought it may have held some truth.

 

[Mr Stubs]

I wheel with a buggy running 9.5 LC's and they are great and take a beating but I did find his 3rd member build cost to be pretty expensive and as with all the yota 3rds lacking high ratios.

I'm going to read your thread now. Do you have to commit to inner C's to run either the 99-02 or the 05+ or does one work for both?

To my knowledge the C’s are not interchangeable.

Truthfully the only reason I am building this as a rear steer axle is because of my car. I would much rather have portals but unfortunately they wouldn’t be practical because I would have to change so much stuff. That means build new, and that’s not in the cards for me now.

 

[Wilson]

60 c’s are not interchangeable, the 05+ stuff is massively larger, in every way; housing, c’s, knuckles, Ub’s and axle shafts. There are factory 1550 shafts available from the 450/550 platforms.

tons of info and comparison pics in this thread. If I tackle another build (and do not use portals) it will be 05+ based.

 

[Bebop]

There are factory 1550 shafts available from the 450/550 platforms.

1550 factory shafts are also available from the 17+ 250/350 too.

The 450/550 ones are too long to fit in the 250/350 housing.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

60 c’s are not interchangeable, the 05+ stuff is massively larger, in every way; housing, c’s, knuckles, Ub’s and axle shafts. There are factory 1550 shafts available from the 450/550 platforms.

tons of info and comparison pics in this thread. If I tackle another build (and do not use portals) it will be 05+ based.

Thanks for the link. I've been going between portals and super duty outers on 9" centers, sadly I don't believe I could afford to build centers AND use portals. I'm telling myself more steering angle from the super duty setup is where it's at since I can't afford portals.

Can you tell me some quick differences between the generations of ball joints since I have to commit to inner C's, people keep recommending both with out much reasoning besides size? I don't know if I need the beef of the 05+ stuff but I don't mind having more than I need rather than not enough.

 

[Bebop]

https://www.wideopendesign.com/crane-axle-14-bolt-front-axle-housing

Aboute $1000 for a brand new housing. Hard to beat.

I know, it's heavy.

 

[Bebop]

Can you tell me some quick differences between the generations of ball joints since I have to commit to inner C's, people keep recommending both with out much reasoning besides size? I don't know if I need the beef of the 05+ stuff but I don't mind having more than I need rather than not enough.

My thoughts are:

If you ever see the need of going with 1550 / rockwell / big bell size outers, do the 05+.
If you'll be fine on 1480, stay 99-04.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

My thoughts are:

If you ever see the need of going with 1550 / rockwell / big bell size outers, do the 05+.
If you'll be fine on 1480, stay 99-04.

Why not go big if it's a lot of factory parts? Is the 99-04 stuff that much cheaper?

I don't need 1550's right now but I didn't anything larger than a 37" tire 3 years ago either.

I like the idea of a 9" center/ stock-ish 05+ outer parts and if I ever need more I could 10" center /1550 outer parts without having to build another complete axle.

 

[JR4X]

Healey was using the Solid 14s, not the Torq 14s and yes, the early ones did have some main cap issues.

And those were such a success they’re not in production anymore correct? I can’t even find pictures of them anymore

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Agree there.

iirc, the Dana 70U has a smaller inner pinion bearing and the truck pull guys have found that to be the weak link.

One to definitely stay away from is the D70-3, they are somewhat rare in pick-up trucks, more common in cab chassis applications like ambulances, box trucks etc. They have a weird ring gear offset, so you have to do some mixing, matching and grinding to put deeper gears in.

I realize that the 70u is a little weaker than the HD in that regard. I don't know if that really would matter in a crawler. I feel if you are pushing the limits of a 70, you need an 80, not a slightly stronger 70.

1985 Sterling 10.25 Gears | Pirate 4x4 https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/19...-gears.564734/

10.50 7.17 Gears | Pirate 4x4
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/10...-gears.373831/

​​​​​​

:rolleyes:There were a few more, no one linked to a 7.17 gear to buy but it was mentioned and no one disputed it in typical pirate fashion so thought it may have held some truth.

I wonder if they made a brief run of them for airport tugs? The older cummins trucks were common airport tugs with 7.17 rear ends.

Either way, not something that you'll find anymore.

Thanks for the link. I've been going between portals and super duty outers on 9" centers, sadly I don't believe I could afford to build centers AND use portals. I'm telling myself more steering angle from the super duty setup is where it's at since I can't afford portals.

Can you tell me some quick differences between the generations of ball joints since I have to commit to inner C's, people keep recommending both with out much reasoning besides size? I don't know if I need the beef of the 05+ stuff but I don't mind having more than I need rather than not enough.

Dude, you don't need the 9" centers with the portals. There are guys with big engines and big stickies running the Toyota centers with the portals.

I don't see the need for the 05-16 outters for a zuk buggy, but if you can find a cheap donor, why not. You possibly even either use the stock inners or have them resplined to get you going. They're factory 35 spline outters and hubs.

Like I said, I'd go for 99-04 or even just find a 2nd gen dodge axle. They can be had for almost free and are the same C's if you change your mind later. Probably the lightest option. There is a guy on here running them front and rear iirc in a turbo zuk buggy with 42 stickies. Drawing a blank on his name.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Why not go big if it's a lot of factory parts? Is the 99-04 stuff that much cheaper?

I don't need 1550's right now but I didn't anything larger than a 37" tire 3 years ago either.

I like the idea of a 9" center/ stock-ish 05+ outer parts and if I ever need more I could 10" center /1550 outer parts without having to build another complete axle.

You have what 100hp right now? Of course you have the gearing to break almost anything if you wedge it hard enough, but I'd bet it would be driveshafts or tcase parts first.

The big bell rcv's are ~$5000 a pair. Then you need $4k+ 3rds to use the 47 spine shafts, ect. Those are what the big boy rock bouncers run. I'm sure some of them are still running the "small" bell 1480 sized stuff. You say you want light, but then are getting spun out on getting the biggest possible stuff. Really only a small margin of guys are pushing the limits of 35 spline 1480 stuff and I'd bet a lot of them are due to weight.

So if you really plan on 750+hp and all the parts to go with it, go 05-16 stuff, otherwise, it's probably just extra weight and cost.

 

['84 Bronco II]

1550 factory shafts are also available from the 17+ 250/350 too.

The 450/550 ones are too long to fit in the 250/350 housing.

Not entirely accurate. The '14+ F250/350 got the 1550 shafts that are a direct interchange with the earlier '05-'13 F250/350 axles (someone correct me if I am wrong on the exact year, but I believe it corresponded with the up-rated 6.7L). Part numbers 10013781 (Driver) and 10013778 (passenger). I am not sure what the year breaks are, but I know the 4.30 F250/350 axles have the 10" "Super 60" gear set, perhaps as early as '05. I think they phased the 10" gear set in for the higher ratios later on, but I am not certain about that or which years it would be applicable.

The '17+ stuff is a new animal and I am not sure how much interchanges with the '05-'16 axles. The Pinion is substantially shorter and fatter on the new axles, and I am not sure if the carriers are even the same as legacy Dana 60s. The axle shafts are 1550 as you pointed out, but I don't know whether they are a direct interchange with the '05-'16 F250/350 stuff.

Edit:

'17+ Dana 60 gears:

Legacy Dana 60 gears:

There were some pictures back on Pirate comparing the two side by side, but I can't find a picture now. The new pinions are substantially beefier, but shorter. Also, while looking for these pictures, it looks like old Dana 60 carriers still work in the new '17+ stuff.

EDIT #2: Looks like Trail Tamer beat me to it

 

[Wilson]

My recommendation is if you want to stay 5 lug or 6 lug, use the early stuff. If 8 lug is fine for you, go with the 05+.

35 spl throughout; run stock stubs until you break. The earlier stuff needs modified parts to build. The 05+ Inner shaft lengths probably won’t work, but you could have one re-splined or build your housing to use another stock length shaft. This way your setup is all “stock” and not x,y,z aftermarket parts. Anything would be a parts store trip away.

The last 609 I was building was a custom cluster fuck; Currie housing, hi9, early-style c’s, tg knuckles, spidertrax ub’s, spidertrax 14” rotors, 6 piston calipers, custom backing plates, custom inner length shafts and Emf tie rod ends, with JR4x servo steering. The only thing that could buy off of the shelf were ball joints... and now it’s a burned up garage decoration

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Dude, you don't need the 9" centers with the portals. There are guys with big engines and big stickies running the Toyota centers with the portals.

I don't see the need for the 05-16 outters for a zuk buggy, but if you can find a cheap donor, why not. You possibly even either use the stock inners or have them resplined to get you going. They're factory 35 spline outters and hubs.

Like I said, I'd go for 99-04 or even just find a 2nd gen dodge axle. They can be had for almost free and are the same C's if you change your mind later. Probably the lightest option. There is a guy on here running them front and rear iirc in a turbo zuk buggy with 42 stickies. Drawing a blank on his name.

I've already sold off my best toyota 3rd lockers/gears and I was still running stock housings so once I figured I needed housings and then had to spend some cash to buy back some lockers and such for the yota 3rds. At that point I'll just go down the 9" path.

Ford's rot out like nothing in PA, anything does for that matter, dime a dozen, $200-300 an axle. Either generation so I'd rather take the better route since either option would run me the same

 

[Bebop]

Why not go big if it's a lot of factory parts? Is the 99-04 stuff that much cheaper?

I don't need 1550's right now but I didn't anything larger than a 37" tire 3 years ago either.

I like the idea of a 9" center/ stock-ish 05+ outer parts and if I ever need more I could 10" center /1550 outer parts without having to build another complete axle.

You can't run 6 or 5 lugs with 05+ stuff.
05+ stuff is heavier.
05+ is more expensive.

If you're ok with these 3 things, I'd go 05+