9" vs D60, continued....
- Thread starter YotaAtieToo
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TrailTamer
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try think inner axle shafts & spool as a driveshaft and one tire as transfer case output, other tire as axle pinion. Phase inner shafts into spool, so they will always stay in phase, canceling out u-joints’ oscillating speed. This is to make both tires to spin at constant speed when steering.
Will Scarlet
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Exactly, and if you run an ARB the axles will never be in phase.
I do understand driveshaft phasing, I just got confused with reading your statement, a lot of "shaft" talk. I kept separating driveshaft and axle shaft instead of applying the idea to the 2.
I feel like this is newbie talk but I haven't heard much on axle shaft phasing, though it makes complete sense. I'm hoping it's because this idea applies to u-joints only and this doesn't apply to birfield's? I'd feel much better Or I missed a large chapter along the way.
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I do understand driveshaft, I just got confused with reading your statement, a lot of "shaft" talk. I kept separating driveshaft and axle shaft instead of applying the idea to the 2.
I feel like this is newbie talk but I haven't heard much on axle shaft phasing, though it makes complete sense. I'm hoping it's because this idea applies to u-joints only and this doesn't apply to birfield's? I'd feel much better Or I missed a large chapter along the way.
With birfields it wouldn’t matter or with a spool you could use u-jointed axle shafts, phase them correctly and it wouldn’t be a problem. But with a locker the shafts will get out of phase and you’ll feel it. I drive a superduty work truck and it’s winter in Colorado. I never unlock the hubs because I use the shift on the fly 4wd multiple times a day. I can feel the front axle shafts not being happy at full lock even with the t-case in two wheel drive. I have a hand full of friends with rear steer cars that have 50° steering that are running u-jointed axles. You can definitely feel the shafts being out of phase at the tires. Can’t use birfields in that application because there isn’t a CV in existence that can do nearly that much steering angle.
WaterH
Well-known member
All this talk about phasing is a bit dramatic. If your talking about a driveshaft, it's a big deal because it will cause constant vibration. But in a turning axle it's not because you spend so little time with it turned, especially at speed. And a rear steer axle would be even less.
When i I lived in Canada, I locked the front wheels in fall and unlocked in spring. I rarely even shifted out of 4x4. I could feel it on a turn if I was really paying attention, but not an issue worth worrying about. I never phased the front axle in any 4x4 in my life. (I was in all of them and had lockers in most)
When i I lived in Canada, I locked the front wheels in fall and unlocked in spring. I rarely even shifted out of 4x4. I could feel it on a turn if I was really paying attention, but not an issue worth worrying about. I never phased the front axle in any 4x4 in my life. (I was in all of them and had lockers in most)
I'm surprised I've never seen anyone try and cobble a driveshaft together with a birfield's (if you didn't need crazy angles.)
Thanks though, all makes sense.On a more serious note. How could you combat this then in the rear if you wanted to run a selectable?
I'm surprised I've never seen anyone try and cobble a driveshaft together with a birfield's (if you didn't need crazy angles.)
On a more serious note. How could you combat this then in the rear if you wanted to run a selectable?
Jeep JK’s come from the factory with CV drive shafts instead of u-joints. The guys I know with 50° steering and ARB’s don’t combat it, they just live it. Like, you aren’t doing the crab walk at 40 mph because it shakes the rigs violently. Like Scott said, you can feel it at just the slightest bit of wheels steered when you’ve got 40” or bigger tires. My buddy with RCV’s in the back, his doesn’t care.
arse_sidewards
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Newer superdutys use a CV (a rzeppa joint, not a double cardan that morons think is called a CV) at the t-case end of the front shaft as well.
Some people tried it on drive shaft like 20yr ago and ran into issues from the angle causing heat. But this is 4th hand experience based on what people said happened when someone brought up the idea on the old board. Based on the kind of vehicles people were crawling with 20yr ago I wouldn't put much stock in that alleged experience.
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
I did it. 20+ years ago. It made a lot of heat and shredded boots. But it let me run stupid angles and a tiny driveshaft. Would not recommend.
Tech Tim
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There was a guy down in the Portland, OR area that was working with RCV to use the RCV bell CVs in driveshafts, he was also having the heat issues with the driveshafts. They spin at a much higher RPM than when the CVs are used in an axle.
Can't remember his name now, that had to have been 15 years ago or so. iirc, he was an acquittance of James Treacey.
Can't remember his name now, that had to have been 15 years ago or so. iirc, he was an acquittance of James Treacey.
arse_sidewards
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So what I'm hearing is that I should run CV drive shafts in my Ranger and just keep warrantying them out at the parts store.
So what I'm hearing is that I should run CV drive shafts in my Ranger and just keep warrantying them out at the parts store.
Vatozone lifetime warranty FTW.
Bebop
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I'm surprised I've never seen anyone try and cobble a driveshaft together with a birfield's (if you didn't need crazy angles.)
I do, in my buggy. Been very surprised by how strong it is (broke a 1410 U-Joint and the CV survived).
Nice to see guys still venturing out of the box on their builds.
Before this thread heads any further up the drivetrain I'm gonna try and bring it back to the axles with a couple questions I have...
When is it time to consider the "upper ball joint eliminator" kit for the 05+ super duty stuff?
Doing this locks you into a fixed camber (I'm not even aware if the camber could be adjusted normally anyhow). BUT how much does the ball joint eliminator effect camber and is it ok to run on street or ...
I know the kingpin is fixed but it's built that way from the factory, I'm curious with the ball joint being able to move compared to being "locked" with the eliminator kit. Any pros or cons from the effect of this in drivability.
Bebop
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I would do the BJE kit from the get go.
If you break a ujoint in a BJ outer, the likelihood of ripping an upper BJ and losing your knuckle is real. Less of a problem if you run RCV shafts.
In my case I beat my shit and wanted the peace of mind + the fact the upper BJ has a bad tendency to wear out quickly.
As far as camber, I would have liked to retain as much as possible but I'll take the penalty for strength. You can adjust it with the stock BJ inserts.
PS : As far as venturing out on a build, my buggy has a few "oddball" choices but nothing too drastic. That said I've been super happy with them so far.
If you break a ujoint in a BJ outer, the likelihood of ripping an upper BJ and losing your knuckle is real. Less of a problem if you run RCV shafts.
In my case I beat my shit and wanted the peace of mind + the fact the upper BJ has a bad tendency to wear out quickly.
As far as camber, I would have liked to retain as much as possible but I'll take the penalty for strength. You can adjust it with the stock BJ inserts.
PS : As far as venturing out on a build, my buggy has a few "oddball" choices but nothing too drastic. That said I've been super happy with them so far.
arse_sidewards
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I've broken a pretty good number of D44 joints and always just annihilated the ears of the shaft. Why is the D60 any more likely to kill a knuckle?
Wilson
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I don’t think it is. The space inside of the newer knuckles is massive. It certainly does happen on the older d44’s. I had one break at WOT that took out everything from the axle tube -> except for the brake components.
Bebop
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Seen a few pictures like this
I'm not taking any chances.
It's enough of a problem that some companies make a product specifially to avoid losing the knuckle when that happens
Soooo, I installed some BJE on my buggy for the peace of mind.
Rangerrod
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That’s awesome.
WaterH
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That high steer arm looks cool, but I don't see how that really stops the problem. If there's enough force to break that ball joint out, I think it will still break out of that. Has that cured the problem?
it doesnt fix or stop it, it gets you back to the trailer without your tire falling off, the knuckle is still going to be broken
i would go with EMF ball joints over the eliminator for a rig that sees the street
YotaAtieToo
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That was actually just a few months ago. It's what came to mind when people started talking ball joints.
I also saw a very similar situation, down to the rock shape, at Fordyce. Not sure if it was 99-04 or 05-16, but I think it was 99-04.
Iirc, one BJE company retains camber adjustment and 1 doesn't, both kits look nice. I like the more simple one with something ridiculous like an 1 1/4" bolt and a bushing
So what's the king pin equivalent to that look like?
Can this happen to both style knuckles where a broken shaft/u-joint can take out the knuckle? Or does the kingpin have more room where it's not as common.
Can this happen to both style knuckles where a broken shaft/u-joint can take out the knuckle? Or does the kingpin have more room where it's not as common.
Happens to both.
Beat95yj
Rolling 24/7
Fred has them F&R. HP 10”. He pulled the rear to swap an arb. He has had no issues. Can’t remember if he is 35 or 40 spline in back. No wear to speak of and he loves to push the LSA’s loud pedal.
Aside from UA it is mostly a trailer queen though.
'84 Bronco II
El Chingón
Beat95yj
Rolling 24/7
Your ears must have been burning
Or there were IG, FB, YT posts and people texting/messengering me. 😆