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5.4 cam phasers/chains - fix or?

montrose818

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So I have an 08 f350 with 150k miles on the clock that needs this. My work schedule is pretty busy, is this a big project? I read shop time is 11 hours, but looks like reaching over the radiator support to the block will not be fun.

Is this a job worth paying someone to do? Am I money ahead swapping the engine? Put the project aside and look for a 12 valve?

Truck runs good except for the chains. Trans shifts fine.

Thanks for any input

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WHY does it need chains/why do you think it needs chains first of all? Start up rattle or hot idle knocking? The chains aren't hard to do but depending on your symptoms you may not need them at all at 150k. The guides in my F150 looked nearly new at 165k.

I ended up doing chains and 2v iron tensioners in mine, then finding out that my rattle on start up was a sticking/broken lock pin in one of the phasers. I'm cheap and this was peak 'Rona backorder time so I locked the phasers out, she's quiet as can be cold or hot now.
 
TrikeKid said:
WHY does it need chains/why do you think it needs chains first of all? Start up rattle or hot idle knocking? The chains aren't hard to do but depending on your symptoms you may not need them at all at 150k. The guides in my F150 looked nearly new at 165k.

I ended up doing chains and 2v iron tensioners in mine, then finding out that my rattle on start up was a sticking/broken lock pin in one of the phasers. I'm cheap and this was peak 'Rona backorder time so I locked the phasers out, she's quiet as can be cold or hot now.
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From the basic reading I read, if doing the phasers, dont you do the chains/guides at the same time?

Do I need to remove chains to lock the phasers out? I havent read about this. I did read that usually its the phasers making the noise.

This is diagnostic feedback from the previous owner that sold me the truck.
 
montrose818 said:
From the basic reading I read, if doing the phasers, dont you do the chains/guides at the same time?

Do I need to remove chains to lock the phasers out? I havent read about this. I did read that usually its the phasers making the noise.

This is diagnostic feedback from the previous owner that sold me the truck.
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No need to pull the chain or cover to do phasers or to lock them out. There's a tool you wedge in the chain to hold the tensioner and lower end of the chain that will let you unbolt the phaser in the truck. You can lock your original phasers even if they're fucked up, no need to buy new ones. You will need a tune and new phaser bolts though, and valve cover gaskets wouldn't be a bad idea at 150k.
 
Thanks man that helps a TON.

So you basically put these blocks in? Man that sure as hell beata the full job!

photo55869.jpg
 
montrose818 said:
Thanks man that helps a TON.

So you basically put these blocks in? Man that sure as hell beata the full job!
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Yup, I got my lockouts from Blow By Racing since they were the cheapest I could find, I already had the wedge tool and the truck was already tuned, just had to have it revised to turn off the VCT codes. If you don't have a tune and wedge already the full kits aren't a bad deal.

Livernois's video shows the process well
https://youtu.be/YsoU2zEWTyE
 
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So my helpers took the covers off, and I will remove the phasers (got the tool)

My concern is the tune - I see 600 dollar tunes, then I read people having issues with that.

a pair of OEM phasers are only 400 bucks or so, still cheaper than a tune, and no smog issues.

You guys still recommend the lockouts?
 
I have swapped phasers, Guess I didn't think it was that big of a deal. If it is for me I do chains, guides and all with the new "updated" stuff. but not really sure it is updated.
On the cheap I just put the phasers in. Depends on who is doing it. You can swap them without pulling the chains but you gotta pay attention, check and recheck cam timing when you get it back together. Turn the engine by hand a dozen times in between each check.
then check cam timing again before you put the cover on.

Never knew there was lockouts. So you have to use tunes if you use lockouts?
 
Tiha said:
Never knew there was lockouts. So you have to use tunes if you use lockouts?
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yes otherwise it throws check engine light. but tunes are 500-600 bucks.

I am NOT pulling the front cover off, yes its not a big deal but its on a plate of projects that we really dont have any room for more. If phasers doesnt fix it, it will probably go back up for sale. I paid 3500 for the truck but ran short on time so now I just need it out of the way.

also folks here said its probably not the chains, so Ill take the gamble.
 
I’ve done a few of these 5.4 3v timing chain and phaser job. The problem I find is the gaskets on the tensioners blow out and that causes a oil pressure loss, then the phasers don’t have enough oil pressure to work correctly.

The cams are the last thing in the oil pressure feed, If the engine is driven enough with low oil pressure up stairs the heads will be junk because the cam tunnel will be worn out, basically it’s time for a whole engine then.

When I do these jobs I buy OEM phasers, tensioners, solenoids, the Cloyes chains and guides, Melling high volume oil pump.

With that HV oil pump you can hear a difference before and after on how the engine sounds, it makes a big difference, no rattling.

I love these 5.4s between spark plugs blowing out, breaking off and the timing chain jobs I don’t have any free
You can see in these pictures how the gaskets blow out and the new tensioners have an O-ring now.
I wouldn’t lock out the phasers, you’re doing a lot of work to bandaid a problem and you’ll have a problem because of low oil pressure to the heads, then you’re losing the benefits of the cam timing.
Fix it once, fix it right.
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I'd add the 2v tensioners to the list if you want to fix it right/bulletproof one, no gasket to blow out 'cause they're not plastic.

Melling makes a high volume/high pressure pump that I'd like to try in one that has had the cam clearance loosen up to see if it can get the pressure back up and make one live, since we're gonna run out of heads/long blocks at some point and there are a ton of these trucks around still.
 
TrikeKid said:
I'd add the 2v tensioners to the list if you want to fix it right/bulletproof one, no gasket to blow out 'cause they're not plastic.

Melling makes a high volume/high pressure pump that I'd like to try in one that has had the cam clearance loosen up to see if it can get the pressure back up and make one live, since we're gonna run out of heads/long blocks at some point and there are a ton of these trucks around still.
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I'm learning a lot on this thread, I've avoided mod motors like the plague :laughing:

We had a fleet of Ford's, lots of 2v vans and a handful of 3v f250s, then a handful of 6.2 f350s, and had no internal engine work up to 200k miles. We also dumped 15-40 into everything, another mechanic (who had a factory super charged 5.4 truck and a turbo 4.6 mustang, pretty savvy on mod motors ) figured it was due to the oil

Thoughts?
 
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Projectjunkie said:
I'm learning a lot on this thread, I've avoided mod motors like the plague :laughing:

We had a fleet of Ford's, lots of 2v vans and a handful of 3v f250s, then a handful of 6.2 f350s, and had no internal engine work up to 200k miles. We also dumped 15-40 into everything, another mechanic (who had a factory super charged 5.4 truck and a turbo 4.6 mustang, pretty savvy on mod motors ) figured it was due to the oil

Thoughts?
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They were designed and originally specified 5w30, somewhere along the line for emissions/fuel ecnomy they dropped that for 5w20. I've always put 5w30 in them. I've heard some folks say the VCT shit doesn't work correctly on 15w40 but I've never seen that be the case. I don't see how the little higher oil pressure from heavier oil can do anything but help. That and most 15w40 still has the good vitamins and dinosaurs in it. I've seen a TON of 2v trucks at 300k or more, as long as you keep oil in them and abuse them regularly they last forever.
 
The VVT give the 5.4 a broad torque range, I wouldn't disable it. Once this engine is fixed correctly it runs really nice, I done a bunch.
Now if the owner drove it for a while with the tensioners blown out the heads a must likely junk so that's when it's time for a complete engine. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rebuilders have some band-aid fix for the heads that lasts till it's out of warranty.
 
Gdogg said:
The VVT give the 5.4 a broad torque range, I wouldn't disable it. Once this engine is fixed correctly it runs really nice, I done a bunch.
Now if the owner drove it for a while with the tensioners blown out the heads a must likely junk so that's when it's time for a complete engine. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rebuilders have isome band-aid fix for the heads that lasts till it's out of warranty.
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I've heard of one outfit line boring them and putting cam bearings in, no idea on the longevity of it.

I don't miss the VCT in mine, good bottom end power but it's definitely done by about 5k with stock cams.
 
TrikeKid said:
That and most 15w40 still has the good vitamins and dinosaurs in it. I've seen a TON of 2v trucks at 300k or more, as long as you keep oil in them and abuse them regularly they last forever.
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I recently went through a nightmare situation with my kids 4.0. Of course we always ran the 5W-30. He kept braking timing chains and guides. Decent quality ones as well.
The last time we had it out doing them I threw an oil pressure sending unit on it because the old one was leaking/seaping. With the new sending unit the gauge was bouncing and reading 0 at idle. all the time. Never did that before. Even though it didn't ever sound bad, rattles, or any odd noises it had no oil pressure. No telling how many years it had been like that.
Put a manual gauge on to verify and it was worse than the factory sending unit was showing.
We dropped the pan, put rods and mains in it. Also a HV oil pump. The clearances were pretty loose. They don't make, or we couldn't find .001 under bearings for this engine.
Anyway put it back together. No oil pressure at idle when hot.

Just out of desperation we threw some 15w-40 in it. Now it will hold 1-2 psi on the gauge when hot. Not sure that is enough but we didn't have nothing to lose.
interesting thing is how smooth and quiet the engine is compared to running it on the 5W-30. No startup rattles, it idles smoother and quieter.

Had read guys claiming that the heavier oils gum up tensioners. Kind of hard to imagine but time will tell I guess. He is going to run it like this until he decides to buy a new motor, or we will put a crank in, but really he wants to repower with a V8.

Gotta say as soon as I read that I think there might be something to this oil weight thing. They did choose lighter oils for fuel mileage and emissions. They may cool better, but I don't think they protect as well.
 
FWIW when I used to restore old Mustangs I found non-synthetic Castrol GTX 20-50 was the best at holding oil pressure when hot. That's been years ago so I don't know if that still holds true.

It is amazing how those engines even run with 0 hot oil pressure.
 
I got the new phasers delivered.

the instructions in them mention valve hold down tool or something. Do I need that? I have the chain holds tool that geta inserted down.

Do I need a piston stop? Can I loosen the phaser bolt without holding the crank? Just mark the chain at the phaser mark and reinstall?

also, do i need to take the tensioners out? instructions mention somrthinf like this

thanks
 
The wedge takes care of the tensioner, mark the sprocket and chain with a paint pen. The engine will usually hold the cam enough to r&r the bolt
 
Thank you!

I sure hope these cure the problem. Its been parked st the yard for too long, and is a nice truck otherwise
 
i have to take it to a shop. too much other work related wrenching.


what brand chain and guides should i get? tensioners? melling pump?
 
montrose818 said:
i have to take it to a shop. too much other work related wrenching.


what brand chain and guides should i get? tensioners? melling pump?
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I have a Cloyes timing set in mine, I used the 2v ratcheting tensioners but the ones that come in the Cloyes kit are upgraded from stock and 100% fine. Melling pump if you're gonna do the pump too.
 
TrikeKid Gdogg I'm doing plugs on a 2004 5.4 3 valve right now

#4 un screws, but won't pull straight up

Is this a shit load of carbon built up?

Where do i go from here?

It had 1&3 problems, buddy won't care if they don't all get done at this time
 
Carbon or the plug came apart. Sometimes the threaded portion breaks free from the tip and the porcelain, so you end up with everything but the hex and the threads still in the engine. Lisle makes a tool to pull them when they do that, p/n 65710
 
TrikeKid said:
Carbon or the plug came apart. Sometimes the threaded portion breaks free from the tip and the porcelain, so you end up with everything but the hex and the threads still in the engine. Lisle makes a tool to pull them when they do that, p/n 65710
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I'll tug on it with pliers in case it's carbon, then put it back in till trade in time....


It feels like it's in one piece, but carbon or something preventing removal
 
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