30x40 cabinet shop build - metal building

[Deuce 40s]

Today is day 1.

Specs on the new shop I'm putting in my backyard:

30x40 steel tube frame with metal siding.
12' walls
12x40' lean to
R10 fiberglass insulation
200 amps hopefully
Mini split, lots of 110 and 220 receptacles
4" slab
12x8 all glass panel garage door
All black outside
Permitted with plenty of city inspections


The current yard pics:

 

[Deuce 40s]

That 12x16 shed was 30 years old and still standing strong. I had to empty it so the guys could tear it down. The side of the building will be about 2' into the shed.

Most of this crap will be going under the lean to. I'm almost a hoarder.

 

[Deuce 40s]

The purpose of the new shop is to move my furniture and cabinet business out of my two car garage. It's 24x24 but shares space with the steps to the house and I have to leave room for the golf cart. There's also no air conditioning and no more space for tools.

Current setup

 

[PAToyota]

All black outside

This is the only thing that really jumps out at me that I'd question. It looks like you'll have some shading from trees, but I can just see that soaking up heat and adding to the cooling load. I'd at least consider a lighter color roof.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Did you have to demo the shed to get the city to let you put up the new shop? Too bad you couldn't move it to another spot and continue to use it for lawn shit storage to keep the mower and whatnot out of your shop.

Unless all that is going in the garage. In which case, ignore me.

 

[Deuce 40s]

This is the only thing that really jumps out at me that I'd question. It looks like you'll have some shading from trees, but I can just see that soaking up heat and adding to the cooling load. I'd at least consider a lighter color roof.

I wasn't real excited about the black either, but my wife is making the design choices on this. One of the compromises I had to make.

 

[Deuce 40s]

Did you have to demo the shed to get the city to let you put up the new shop? Too bad you couldn't move it to another spot and continue to use it for lawn shit storage to keep the mower and whatnot out of your shop.

Unless all that is going in the garage. In which case, ignore me.

The only reason I demod the shed was because it was in the way of the shop by a few feet. I wanted to move it but it wasn't structurally sound enough. Most of that crap will be going under the lean to. At some point I'll probably build another lean to off the back. I'm leaving 10' to the line for that purpose.

 

[PAToyota]

I wasn't real excited about the black either, but my wife is making the design choices on this. One of the compromises I had to make.

I'd have argued on the heat issue... That box is going to be an oven in the summer.

A black roof can be 140℉ to 190℉ compared to a white roof at 102℉ to 120℉.

In some areas, they're actually coating the pavement to reduce the absorbed heat: Phoenix Is Using Reflective Pavement to Combat Extreme Heat

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I'd have argued on the heat issue... That box is going to be an oven in the summer.

A black roof can be 140℉ to 190℉ compared to a white roof at 102℉ to 120℉.

In some areas, they're actually coating the pavement to reduce the absorbed heat: Phoenix Is Using Reflective Pavement to Combat Extreme Heat

If he foams it itll be fine. Less efficient for sure, but we all understand compromise to get what we want, lol.

 

[PAToyota]

If he foams it itll be fine. Less efficient for sure, but we all understand compromise to get what we want, lol.

R10 fiberglass insulation

With only R10, you're going to feel that heat on the inside of the walls. Any HVAC will be fighting against that thermal soak.

 

[Deuce 40s]

I was going to do foam. 3" on the ceiling, 2" on the walls. Cost was pushing over $12k. I'm getting the R10 for free with this purchase. I'll have less insulation but full access to my electrical when I certainly need it as I move equipment around over time.

Black is going to be hotter no doubt. The good news is I'm covered in trees for the most part. I can't even get grass to grow on that side of the yard. After noon it's all shade. Think of all my savings in the winter.

 

[D Nelly]

What're you planning on for siding/trim/doors/windows? A lot of materials won't play nicely with dark paint if you're going that direction. Just something to consider

 

[rockmup]

That bagged R-10 is going to suck for many reasons.
A) It’s horribly inefficient
B) the dust is going to cling to it and add weight
C) it will sag quickly and cause condensation against you outside panels
There’s more.

As for foam, 2” of CC is all you need. Never let anyone put OC against metal siding.

Should be about 3.00-4.00 a sqft installed
4200. For the roof @3.50

 

[Deuce 40s]

What're you planning on for siding/trim/doors/windows? A lot of materials won't play nicely with dark paint if you're going that direction. Just something to consider

The siding and trim is coming with the building, painted metal. 30 year "warranty".

I'm putting in 5 picture frame windows, Atrium 150 series. 36x72, black laminate exterior and white interior. Probably do a grid of some sort in there. Two 36x80 fiberglass man doors. The doors I'll have to paint myself. They're coming primed. One will be under the lean to, the other exposed to the east.

 

[Deuce 40s]

That bagged R-10 is going to suck for many reasons.
A) It’s horribly inefficient
B) the dust is going to cling to it and add weight
C) it will sag quickly and cause condensation against you outside panels
There’s more.

As for foam, 2” of CC is all you need. Never let anyone put OC against metal siding.

Should be about 3.00-4.00 a sqft installed
4200. For the roof @3.50

This is a picture of one of their insulated buildings inside, very similar to the one I'm getting, just larger. Mine will be double walled and trussed, but not webbed on the walls.

I'm lining the walls with 3/4" prefinished Birch plywood.

There is about 2900 sqft of walls and ceilings for your foam calcs. The nearest installer is 1.5 hours away, so factor that as well. Came in about $12k for 2 and 3", averaging under $4 sqft plus travel.

 

[WaterH]

If you got lots of shade, I guess it can work. I have to say spray foam is way better. Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a black building like that. Where are you located? I suppose black would help keep snow off.

Edit, have you looked into the diy kits for spray foam?

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

I highly recommend not doing the bat insulation and getting that sucker spray foamed. I sprayed a 50x100 building and in wi it did not get below 40 all winter with no heat in it. The stuff is amazing. Summers if you keep the doors closed it stays 50 ish. I’m sold on it.

I have multiple other buildings with the insulation you shown in the picture and it’s better than nothing but no where near what the spray foam is. I would probably cut my heating bills in more than half if the other buildings were sprayed.

By being “free” you can allready tell the quality of it.

 

[arse_sidewards]

By being “free” you can allready tell the quality of it.

Or what the margin is on the the part that isn’t free.

 

[bad zuki]

I have multiple other buildings with the insulation you shown in the picture and it’s better than nothing but no where near what the spray foam is. I would probably cut my heating bills in more than half if the other buildings were sprayed.

HIGHLY Recommend that you get sucker sprayed. Buddy did a barndomium and it looses heat so fast with an R-10 sidewall. If you Compromise on the color, You shouldn't compromise on the Insulation. Insulation pays for itself in a climate controlled area. Tell them it's a storage building, not a garage.

The Kid looks like he does good work!

 

[Deuce 40s]

If you got lots of shade, I guess it can work. I have to say spray foam is way better. Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a black building like that. Where are you located? I suppose black would help keep snow off.

Edit, have you looked into the diy kits for spray foam?

Spray foam is definitely better and was my first choice. But $12k would go a long way right now towards something else.

Eastern NC. We don't get snow really. A dusting every few years. I think it dipped below freezing overnight maybe 5 times this past winter. I'll run very little heat in the building, just to keep it in the 50s, or 60s if I'm working.

Summer temps are in the 90s mostly.

Worst case scenario, let's say my cooling can't keep up. Can I put another 4" of unlined insulation between my wall panels and this lined insulation?

 

[rockmup]

This is a picture of one of their insulated buildings inside, very similar to the one I'm getting, just larger. Mine will be double walled and trussed, but not webbed on the walls.

I'm lining the walls with 3/4" prefinished Birch plywood.

There is about 2900 sqft of walls and ceilings for your foam calcs. The nearest installer is 1.5 hours away, so factor that as well. Came in about $12k for 2 and 3", averaging under $4 sqft plus travel.

So they shouldn’t be selling you 3” of CC. There’s a point of diminishing returns after 2”

You can opt out of using that insulation which will save you some money

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

Spray foam is definitely better and was my first choice. But $12k would go a long way right now towards something else.

Eastern NC. We don't get snow really. A dusting every few years. I think it dipped below freezing overnight maybe 5 times this past winter. I'll run very little heat in the building, just to keep it in the 50s, or 60s if I'm working.

Summer temps are in the 90s mostly.

Worst case scenario, let's say my cooling can't keep up. Can I put another 4" of unlined insulation between my wall panels and this lined insulation?

How long you plan on living here? If this is gonna be a 10+ year deal I would bite the bullet and spray it. You’ll never ever say I wish I didnt spray it. I spent 46k to spray my building . Everytime I walk in there I just smile. It’s cool in the summer and not freezing in the winter. I’m now a beliver. I will never use fluffy stuff again. That shit sucks compared to the spray.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I will never use fluffy stuff again. That shit sucks compared to the spray.

Until you spray a wood building and it rots the fuck out in short order.

We've started having that happen locally as the oldest foam installations are pushing 30 at this point.

 

[Rockwood]

R10 will be better than the garage though.

 

[665.0coupe]

How long you plan on living here? If this is gonna be a 10+ year deal I would bite the bullet and spray it. You’ll never ever say I wish I didnt spray it. I spent 46k to spray my building . Everytime I walk in there I just smile. It’s cool in the summer and not freezing in the winter. I’m now a beliver. I will never use fluffy stuff again. That shit sucks compared to the spray.

Did you just spray closed cell directly on the tin, or is there something between the tin and the foam?

 

[rockota]

This is a picture of one of their insulated buildings inside, very similar to the one I'm getting, just larger. Mine will be double walled and trussed, but not webbed on the walls.

I'm lining the walls with 3/4" prefinished Birch plywood.

There is about 2900 sqft of walls and ceilings for your foam calcs. The nearest installer is 1.5 hours away, so factor that as well. Came in about $12k for 2 and 3", averaging under $4 sqft plus travel.

FYI... neighbor runs an insulation business. He said spray foam will not stick to this stuff or the foil-based insulation. So consider that for the future as well.... it would have changed what I did on my build.

 

[rockmup]

Did you just spray closed cell directly on the tin, or is there something between the tin and the foam?

Did you just spray closed cell directly on the tin, or is there something between the tin and the foam?

You should ONLY spray against the tin or wood. Its not meant to be sprayed against any kind of membrane at all, even though guys spray OC against tyvex, they shouldn't. The heat from curing shrinks it and creates air pockets which cause condensation.
FWIW, CC is a thermal and vapor barrier. OC is only a thermal barrier

No foam manufacturer would approve that

 

[665.0coupe]

You should ONLY spray against the tin or wood. Its not meant to be sprayed against any kind of membrane at all, even though guys spray OC against tyvex, they shouldn't. The heat from curing shrinks it and creates air pockets which cause condensation.
FWIW, CC is a thermal and vapor barrier. OC is only a thermal barrier

No foam manufacturer would approve that

Thanks, that is good to know. I knew that CC was a vapor and thermal barrier. I have heard of condensation issues with spraying directly to tin and that some tin manufacturers will void the warranty if you spray directly to the tin. However, everything that I have heard has been second hand, so I don't fully trust the info.

 

[Deuce 40s]

Trees and stumps are out.

Playing early before school. Still in his pajamas.

 

[RMO]

Great picture