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2bbs 2021 bronco build

arse_sidewards said:
Your boot licking europoor is showing.:flipoff2:

State doesn't give a shit what the the OEM thinks the VIN represents. State just cares that it isn't reported stolen. State doesn't care that there isn't a prior title or registration though lacking a title certainly would reduce the number of paths you can take to get a new "clean" title.

For the purposes of "saving" a unique vehicle from the crusher a "whoopsie, we never paid the storage lot, it got impounded, we ignored the notices and it sold at auction 6mo ago" would probably suffice. As long as corporate doesn't come looking for it and start trying to drag people into court over it nobody's gonna dig into it.
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A bunch of states are pulling the registration for dirt bikes that got dual sport street registration using similar fuckery. They would figure it out and screw you for this too.
 
Bebop said:
They all have a VIN, but it's a pre-series VIN.
Legal requirements are that after 365 days from build time => crusher
You can request an extension, year after year though. Up to 7 years total.
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Bebop said:
They all have a VIN, but it's a pre-series VIN.
Legal requirements are that after 365 days from build time => crusher
You can request an extension, year after year though. Up to 7 years total.
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The 04 pre-production F150 we built for Sema had zero numbers on it. Ford even forgot it existed. It got stripped of all good parts and was sent back to be crushed 18mo later. If the magazine guys hadn't called for, it might still be around.
 
Bebop said:
And we totally don't track where the pre-series cars are.
We just hand them out like candy and they fall off the radar.
:jester:
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I was thinking more along the lines of some middle managers letting it happen by accident because of shit getting lost/missed when teams go through periods of high turnover or "by accident on purpose" because the preproduction vehicle has been out there a couple years doing the rounds with the journalists and nobody really feels responsible when a "hey, we've been done with this car for a few months, we're moving offices and it needs to get out of our parking garage, u gonna pick it up" email gets lost in the day to day paperwork shuffle. There's plenty of examples of OEMs doing that sort of thing over the years and my impression is that there's a fair number of prototypes kicking around museums and private collections that have stories like that.

DMG said:
A bunch of states are pulling the registration for dirt bikes that got dual sport street registration using similar fuckery. They would figure it out and screw you for this too.
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They might or they might not. Something that categorically "shouldn't" be registered like a dirt bike or kei truck I can absolutely see them building a DB query to go find potential hits for and then sifting through to find people because they stand to make a lot of money by fining people that way.

I don't see a Bronco or a 'Vette or some other "novel and interesting" vehicle going missing in this day and age but I can absolutely see a preproduction sample of a bog standard car getting lost, willfully or otherwise, and the OEM not pursuing it because it's just an expensive headache and the state never noticing because they aren't asking the OEMs to fact-check every registration.
 
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bdkw1 said:
The 04 pre-production F150 we built for Sema had zero numbers on it. Ford even forgot it existed. It got stripped of all good parts and was sent back to be crushed 18mo later. If the magazine guys hadn't called for, it might still be around.
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That would have been a prototype not a pre-series then.
Also that was 20 years ago. Systems have advanced since.

arse_sidewards said:
I was thinking more along the lines of some middle managers letting it happen by accident because of shit getting lost/missed when teams go through periods of high turnover or "by accident on purpose" because the preproduction vehicle has been out there a couple years doing the rounds with the journalists and nobody really feels responsible when a "hey, we've been done with this car for a few months, we're moving offices and it needs to get out of our parking garage, u gonna pick it up" email gets lost in the day to day paperwork shuffle. There's plenty of examples of OEMs doing that sort of thing over the years and my impression is that there's a fair number of prototypes kicking around museums and private collections that have stories like that.
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In today's day and age? Not happening.
All our cars are tracked in SAP.

arse_sidewards said:
I don't see a Bronco or a 'Vette or some other "novel and interesting" vehicle going missing in this day and age but I can absolutely see a preproduction sample of a bog standard car getting lost, willfully or otherwise, and the OEM not pursuing it because it's just an expensive headache and the state never noticing because they aren't asking the OEMs to fact-check every registration.
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That's make believe. You're inventing shit.
 
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Bebop said:
Also that was 20 years ago. Systems have advanced since.

In today's day and age? Not happening.
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Garbage in. Garbage out.

"Database says Jim's team authorized the loan of that car to X on date Y"

Digitizing your paper processes isn't gonna change anything. It's just gonna mean all the same stuff (both the wins and the losses) can happen quicker and faster with less labor. This is a lesson that was learned decades ago.

If nobody gives enough shits to look into why Y is a date 2yr ago it's just gonna keep passing your quarterly audit. And an organization like an automotive OEM is gonna be real good at crushing people who give enough shits to get outside their lane and ask questions.

I can absolutely see shit happening until there's a "real audit" and depending on all sorts of factors it could just be "well fuck it, shit's missing" from there. Or maybe y'all have already made that mistake and have added some safeguards. IDK what's going on inside your of a company but I assume that however bad I think it is it's worse.

You act like big organizations don't fairly frequently have assets go missing to the point where tracking them down costs more than the result is worth. It's a fuckin car. Not a nuclear warhead. If it can't be found from someone's desk at HQ it probably won't ever get found unless it pops back up on its own. Same as all the other shit that goes missing.




Bebop said:
SAP.
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No wonder you're such an ass. I bet you use Oracle DB too. :laughing:
 
I took some classes at a tech school that had a bunch of vehicles donated by OEMs. Including a Viper, a TJ and some other cool stuff. When that campus shut down, 20 years later, the vehicles were returned. I suspect there were some serious legal consequences for the carmakers if those cars got out into circulation.


Once when I was moving the Viper my foot slipped off the clutch when I was revving it in the parking lot. They weren’t happy with me at all.
 
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2big bronco said:
Yep, its impressive how many words he is able to use arguing with people who actually have pre-production or specialty vehicles.
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Do you really believe that each of the OEMs is running an airtight enough bureaucracy that a few cars per year don't go missing between the bunch of them?

I sure as shit don't. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

Of course VW knows they got the US regulatory machine bearing down on them so they probably run a tight shop. Ford is gonna keep their sponsored racers on a short leash because that's just the obvious thing to do. No shit a "legitimate business" like a school is gonna return a fucking viper is has on permanent loan from FCA and FCA is gonna take it backl. But at the complete opposite end of the spectrum it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's a Kicks or an Ecosport or an Eclipse that's just rotting away in some LA parking garage and will wind up sitting there until somone gets rid of it.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Do you really believe that each of the OEMs is running an airtight enough bureaucracy that a few cars per year don't go missing between the bunch of them?

I sure as shit don't. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

Of course VW knows they got the US regulatory machine bearing down on them so they probably run a tight shop. Ford is gonna keep their sponsored racers on a short leash because that's just the obvious thing to do. No shit a "legitimate business" like a school is gonna return a fucking viper is has on permanent loan from FCA and FCA is gonna take it backl. But at the complete opposite end of the spectrum it wouldn't surprise me at all if there's a Kicks or an Ecosport or an Eclipse that's just rotting away in some LA parking garage and will wind up sitting there until somone gets rid of it.
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Yes, somewhere, at somepoint something has gotten lost or missplaced but Id bet it is almost never intentional and is extremely rare that it happens. So much so that it doesnt warrent a discussion into who/what/why untill one pops up.
 
2big bronco said:
Yep, its impressive how many words he is able to use arguing with people who actually have pre-production or specialty vehicles.
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I know a few people that have them. I have seen all kinds of interesting methods of retaining vehicles after their crush date. One of my favorites was the OEM was handed an envelope with two stamped vin plates in it and that was “the car”

Oddly import manufacturer seem to be less aware of where their vehicles are. I had a 300 Z (350?) in my old company warehouse for two years because Nissan forgot we had it, we were done doing research on it and it just sat and sat and sat until we called them up and said do you want this thing or what? In the meantime, we had borrowed tons of trucks and SUVs from them.
 
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Beat95yj said:
I know a few people that have them. I have seen all kinds of interesting methods of retaining vehicles after their crush date. One of my favorites was the OEM was handed an envelope with two stamped vin plates in it and that was “the car”
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Gov requires proof of destruction now.

That said, there is always a way if the request comes from high enough.
 
2big bronco said:
Local club rents area 5 at hollister every memorial weekend. Taking the family camping and wheeling there
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I will be around Sundays through Tuesday, not sure if I will go wheeling since I have to finish mowing the farm.

welndmn said:
The car show on saturday and wheeling at Prairie City on sunday.
There were a few 6th gen's out there on portals too.
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Yah they were a disappointment, wasn't impressed with the $20k worth of performance. Still got hung up on the rear axle and shock mounts. Didn't realize the grey 2 door had 74Weld portals till my buddy made a comment.
 
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Snacktime said:
I will be around Sundays through Tuesday, not sure if I will go wheeling since I have to finish mowing the farm.



Yah they were a disappointment, wasn't impressed with the $20k worth of performance. Still got hung up on the rear axle and shock mounts. Didn't realize the grey 2 door had 74Weld portals till my buddy made a comment.
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If your in the area come track me down sunday morning
 
Snacktime said:
I will be around Sundays through Tuesday, not sure if I will go wheeling since I have to finish mowing the farm.



Yah they were a disappointment, wasn't impressed with the $20k worth of performance. Still got hung up on the rear axle and shock mounts. Didn't realize the grey 2 door had 74Weld portals till my buddy made a comment.
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Well they aren't magic :homer::flipoff2:

Clearance is only part of the equation. Gaining lift for bigger tires without changing suspension geometry, 22% lower gearing plus a 22% less stress on everything upstream are all equally awesome.

Price out a lift, axle regeared and upgraded axles front (is there even a front diff upgrade yet?) and rear, plus whatever mods to fit big enough tires to have the same clearance and it starts to make more sense.
 
Also unless you were counting axle scrapes on comparable runs with similar vehicles - the portals im not sure it would be easy to visually point out the advantages
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Well they aren't magic :homer::flipoff2:

Clearance is only part of the equation. Gaining lift for bigger tires without changing suspension geometry, 22% lower gearing plus a 22% less stress on everything upstream are all equally awesome.

Price out a lift, axle regeared and upgraded axles front (is there even a front diff upgrade yet?) and rear, plus whatever mods to fit big enough tires to have the same clearance and it starts to make more sense.
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All you have to do is bind up the tire, your not reducing anything. Your still going to be able to load an axle up with the same stress. The gearing takes you back to stock ratios with bigger tires. Your getting sucked into the sales bullshit.

The whole issue was the stock suspension, that 540 stock RTI score doesn't help you gain traction. Going to a longer rear shock get you so much more climbing power over obstacles. Suspension was an issue, they both slid when I crawled through because of better ground contact. The few of us actually wheeling Broncos have figured a few things out. I am really thinking 2-3" wider suspension setup will get you more than portals based on watching a few bronco raptors. This is also area dependent based on traction and wheeling conditions. Sierra Nevada wheeling seems to favor more travel with traction over clearance. Staying on a line, plain and simple. At this point I can straight up confirm that BroncBuster extra 1.5" of portal lift is a clear advantage paired with an offset penalty. The scrub radius hinders the portals more than people want to admit and actually steering power is a huge issue with this platform. I run low offset wheels and Hoss 3.0 steering and still find myself rocking back and forth to turn the wheel through obstacles. Bronco has about 1/2 the steering power of a solid axle yota with a IFS box.

You can gain more with the right coilover lift, rear coil bracket relocation and choice of skids. You can compete at 1/10 the price.
4wp coilovers are $1200
Drill bits for rear bracket $40
Talon2006 skids for $300-400

Dirtyjed
I am still not sold on the Dana 44 advatek front end cost. Your not gaining enough to offset the lack of parts availability. Eric will either prove its worth it or total the Bronco trying.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Probably taking dumb lines trying to show off clearance? :laughing:



I thought the "d44" was just the m210 that was what came in the higher package?
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It is, it just has a steel/iron intermediate axle shaft housing and 32 spline axles (Like Rubicons come with from the factory) instead of the stock 29 spline. Not worth it for what Dana Spicer charges.
 
Snacktime said:
All you have to do is bind up the tire, your not reducing anything. Your still going to be able to load an axle up with the same stress. The gearing takes you back to stock ratios with bigger tires. Your getting sucked into the sales bullshit.
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You're wrong, more gearing down stream takes stress off anything before it. it's 22% easier for the everything before. This isn't marketing gimmicks, it's been proven for decades with portals and planetary hubs. This is how moon buggies are able to but 8" Toyota 3rds through absolute hell with 42" stickies filled with water. Those are ~2:1 portals vs 1.22:1, but the concept is the same.

Yes, it lowers the gearing...... That's the benift?

Snacktime said:
The whole issue was the stock suspension, that 540 stock RTI score doesn't help you gain traction. Going to a longer rear shock get you so much more climbing power over obstacles. Suspension was an issue, they both slid when I crawled through because of better ground contact. The few of us actually wheeling Broncos have figured a few things out. I am really thinking 2-3" wider suspension setup will get you more than portals based on watching a few bronco raptors. This is also area dependent based on traction and wheeling conditions. Sierra Nevada wheeling seems to favor more travel with traction over clearance. Staying on a line, plain and simple.
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I'm not here to say portals are better in every single situation. That would be ridiculous. I just think you are painting with an extremely wide brush, based on a very limited experience.

How much with a 3" wider long travel kit run?

Snacktime said:
At this point I can straight up confirm that BroncBuster extra 1.5" of portal lift is a clear advantage paired with an offset penalty. The scrub radius hinders the portals more than people want to admit and actually steering power is a huge issue with this platform. I run low offset wheels and Hoss 3.0 steering and still find myself rocking back and forth to turn the wheel through obstacles. Bronco has about 1/2 the steering power of a solid axle yota with a IFS box.
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You lost all credibility mentioning bronc buster, that's the worst built bronco to date with a terrible driver. I've seen him explode his pos on a line a bone stock bronco and Rubicon walked right through :lmao:

Snacktime said:
You can gain more with the right coilover lift, rear coil bracket relocation and choice of skids. You can compete at 1/10 the price.
4wp coilovers are $1200
Drill bits for rear bracket $40
Talon2006 skids for $300-400

Dirtyjed
I am still not sold on the Dana 44 advatek front end cost. Your not gaining enough to offset the lack of parts availability. Eric will either prove its worth it or total the Bronco trying.
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4wp coil overs? :barf:
 
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