297: Tyler Broke Everything

[ST4x4 Podcast]

Moab Utah, Cruise Moab part 3, Golden Spike, & Broken Parts!! Join Jimmy and Tyler on today’s episode as they continue on with the fun times and stories from Cruise Moab. Tyler broke everything and spent a lot of time welding. And then Jimmy limped out with all the broken stuff.

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For the excitement of National Welding Month (And Tyler’s Month!!!) we are giving away a Bun Trail Welder for April!! Super cool give away that everyone can use. Even if you don’t know how to weld, someone out on the trails will know how, and if you have the tool, then you can get back home! Congrats to Matt Gardner for winning!!!

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[LochyCQ]

Jeeps, Toyota, Nissans, Suzukis, Isuzus, doesn't matter. We just call them all "fourbys" down here. Jeeps we just call shitboxes 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[IowaOffRoad]

"Wheeler" is my preferred term, but I don't mind when we are discussing a "jeep trip" or going "jeeping". They did invent the market segment and guys with Jeeps pioneered off-road travel, at least in the USA anyway.
As I've stated many times before though, there's no off-road 'magic' to a 7-slot grille. It's just power to weight, wheel base, gearing, and traction aid devices. Depending on terrain, Jeep was one of the first to put together a good all-around package to go off-road with, but there are plenty of other brands that put together something similar. The 7-slot grille snobbery is palpable, so perhaps that's why it seems offensive to hear applied to a Toyota or other brand.

 

[LochyCQ]

Land Rovers and Toyotas built Australia 😁

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

"Wheeler" is my preferred term, but I don't mind when we are discussing a "jeep trip" or going "jeeping". They did invent the market segment and guys with Jeeps pioneered off-road travel, at least in the USA anyway.
As I've stated many times before though, there's no off-road 'magic' to a 7-slot grille. It's just power to weight, wheel base, gearing, and traction aid devices. Depending on terrain, Jeep was one of the first to put together a good all-around package to go off-road with, but there are plenty of other brands that put together something similar. The 7-slot grille snobbery is palpable, so perhaps that's why it seems offensive to hear applied to a Toyota or other brand.

I would agree that jeep originated the "small 4x4", but toyota has the longest lasting production 4x4 model with the land cruiser. The suburban is the longest running model, but it didn't get 4x4 until 2 years after the land cruiser?? I would continue to argue that The only reason jeep "won" the ohv recreation market is because they won the military contracts during ww2 and thus had a shit ton of leftover surplus vehicles that the military didn't want anymore and thus the civilian market got an influx of super cheap, super basic 4x4s that they weren't afraid to beat up due to cost.

4 door, solid axle front, wider track width, e lockers front and rear... toyota did that 13 years before jeep did. Fj80 in 1994... and I would argue that the fj80 is still a better stock platform than any JK (not JL though...) because it has a stronger rear axle than anything jeep puts in their wranglers, and the front axle is equivalent to the wrangler 44 fronts. Jeep did do the better thing with the 4:1 tcase though... but they learned that from Marlin, the undisputed king of the toyota gearing market.

Imo toyota was on the forefront of offroad tech until 1997... even the fjcruiser had a lot of new 4x4 tech that other manufacturers didn't have (jeep didnt come out with an ATrac equivalent until the JL... 12-14 years later??). Just the fjcruiser body wasn't built for offroad use, and thus they lost the marketing game.

Jeep is like apple... they just know how to market convenience and fun better 😆

Let's go toyotaing!

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Some fun pics from Golden spike Saturday and the carnage!

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Apparently the other images are too big to upload from my phone, and I'm too lazy to downsize them lol

 

[IowaOffRoad]

I would agree that jeep originated the "small 4x4", but toyota has the longest lasting production 4x4 model with the land cruiser. The suburban is the longest running model, but it didn't get 4x4 until 2 years after the land cruiser?? I would continue to argue that The only reason jeep "won" the ohv recreation market is because they won the military contracts during ww2 and thus had a shit ton of leftover surplus vehicles that the military didn't want anymore and thus the civilian market got an influx of super cheap, super basic 4x4s that they weren't afraid to beat up due to cost.

4 door, solid axle front, wider track width, e lockers front and rear... toyota did that 13 years before jeep did. Fj80 in 1994... and I would argue that the fj80 is still a better stock platform than any JK (not JL though...) because it has a stronger rear axle than anything jeep puts in their wranglers, and the front axle is equivalent to the wrangler 44 fronts. Jeep did do the better thing with the 4:1 tcase though... but they learned that from Marlin, the undisputed king of the toyota gearing market.

Imo toyota was on the forefront of offroad tech until 1997... even the fjcruiser had a lot of new 4x4 tech that other manufacturers didn't have (jeep didnt come out with an ATrac equivalent until the JL... 12-14 years later??). Just the fjcruiser body wasn't built for offroad use, and thus they lost the marketing game.

Jeep is like apple... they just know how to market convenience and fun better 😆

Let's go toyotaing!

Hey, I’m a Toyota fan, but for ease of speaking about the subject it’s not the end of the world to call off-roading “jeeping “ (small j as was intended in 1940). Unless you blow your nose on a ‘facial tissue’, and patch up your cuts with an ‘adhesive wound covering’

You can view the history of the sport utility market however you want, but ultimately International Harvester invented the term for the Scout. So maybe what most people go do off-road should be called “scouting”?
I’ve seen the advertisement from the early 60s in a book that calls the early Scout 80 a “sport-utility vehicle” so I guess you could say they coined the term. I’d post it here but I can’t find the image on the internet.
Jeep may have ‘invented’ the small 4x4 for the masses, but it took a tractor company to get it more out of a niche market. It was directly responsible for the creation of the first bronco, which then mainstreamed the concept. (Full disclosure, I own an original Scout 80 so I’m partial to them).
So, your 4Runner is a distant nephew to the Scout 80. Out Toyota axles are a derivative of the original military Dodge power wagon 9-5/8 axles, but that’s another subject.
If you own a Toyota with an F series engine, it’s also derivative of the 215 Chevrolet 6, but now I’m just trying to start trouble.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

Oh, and not to ignore your comments about innovation…

The bulk of the off road segment either rides on buggy springs (leaves) or an off-road adapted 4 link pioneered by Francois Castaing, former Renault engineer when he was helping AMC design their unibody “SUV”. With traction devices that date their design back before WW2.
So, don’t be such a Toyota snob

Love the show, especially when you finally get around to actually wheeling

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Oh, and not to ignore your comments about innovation…

The bulk of the off road segment either rides on buggy springs (leaves) or an off-road adapted 4 link pioneered by Francois Castaing, former Renault engineer when he was helping AMC design their unibody “SUV”. With traction devices that date their design back before WW2.
So, don’t be such a Toyota snob

Love the show, especially when you finally get around to actually wheeling

Haha me go wheeling? I don't do that...

Interesting thought about the terminology and classification of SUV... I've always viewed SUV as a far more tame vehicle. And I view "4x4" as a very purposeful built off road capable vehicle.

It would be like comparing a subaru or a rav4 to a moon buggy (for sake of extreme examples lol).

I personally don't think jeep had the intention of manufacturing for civilians until the military cleared everything out and civilians showed there was demand for it. Whereas Toyota noticed the consumer demand immediately. And that happened early 1950s. Scout, as you said, didn't come out until the 60s?

And just so that it's out there... I don't mind people saying "let's go jeeping" (it's far better to say than "let's go toyotaing" lol). But it does start to strike a nerve when people use jeep as a universal term for my specific vehicle "hey can you go move your jeep, your blocking the fucking trail asshole" "Bro! It's a fucking toyota!!, ya lemme get on that, my bad"

 

[IowaOffRoad]

Haha me go wheeling? I don't do that...

Interesting thought about the terminology and classification of SUV... I've always viewed SUV as a far more tame vehicle. And I view "4x4" as a very purposeful built off road capable vehicle.

It would be like comparing a subaru or a rav4 to a moon buggy (for sake of extreme examples lol).

I personally don't think jeep had the intention of manufacturing for civilians until the military cleared everything out and civilians showed there was demand for it. Whereas Toyota noticed the consumer demand immediately. And that happened early 1950s. Scout, as you said, didn't come out until the 60s?

And just so that it's out there... I don't mind people saying "let's go jeeping" (it's far better to say than "let's go toyotaing" lol). But it does start to strike a nerve when people use jeep as a universal term for my specific vehicle "hey can you go move your jeep, your blocking the fucking trail asshole" "Bro! It's a fucking toyota!!, ya lemme get on that, my bad"

Toyota (and Mitsubishi and Nissan for that matter) originally produced 4x4 vehicles on the pattern of the MBs, M38s, and M38A1s that they were exposed to following the occupation after WW2, largely for their domestic markets security forces. They didn’t start importing the FJ series to the states until the late 50’s (and even then it was largely localized to the west coast) and Toyota wasn’t a domestic contender in a meaningful way in the 4x4 space until 1979 with the introduction of the Hilux 4x4. By then the market here was well saturated with small to full-size 4x4s.
That is not to detract from the quality of the vehicles or the innovations they brought to market (though the Chevrolet LUV will forever hold the title of first factory-equipped 4x4 compact pickup available in America).
That is also not to say that in the rest of the world Toyota wasn’t first or best when it comes to 4x4, because for decades it was them and Rovor who owned the market in many places.

 

[Winchested]

Tyler, tried running your locker solenoids up and away from the axles? Most ARB harnesses are set up to have the solenoids at the compressor. I have no issues locking mine in and out and mine are under my seat with the compressor.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

4x4toyotatyler if you are concerned with something similar happening in the future, build a suspension block like truck pullers use or old leaf spring rear race car builders used to build. Should be able to build it fairly light, and then you could just ratchet-strap the axle to the frame in order to limp your rig out. Below is my crude 30 second MSpaint drawing:

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Toyota (and Mitsubishi and Nissan for that matter) originally produced 4x4 vehicles on the pattern of the MBs, M38s, and M38A1s that they were exposed to following the occupation after WW2, largely for their domestic markets security forces. They didn’t start importing the FJ series to the states until the late 50’s (and even then it was largely localized to the west coast) and Toyota wasn’t a domestic contender in a meaningful way in the 4x4 space until 1979 with the introduction of the Hilux 4x4. By then the market here was well saturated with small to full-size 4x4s.
That is not to detract from the quality of the vehicles or the innovations they brought to market (though the Chevrolet LUV will forever hold the title of first factory-equipped 4x4 compact pickup available in America).
That is also not to say that in the rest of the world Toyota wasn’t first or best when it comes to 4x4, because for decades it was them and Rovor who owned the market in many places.

Haha I always hated history growing up. Like... with a passion. Always found it completely useless. But stuff like this fascinates me learning about the historical evolution of 4x4 vehicles

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Tyler, tried running your locker solenoids up and away from the axles? Most ARB harnesses are set up to have the solenoids at the compressor. I have no issues locking mine in and out and mine are under my seat with the compressor.

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you just mean closer to the compressor?

My current setup is compressor in the engine bay behind driver headlight. A line goes from there across the firewall, down the fender to the passenger frame rail. Then down the frame to the rear crossmember above the rear axle. Then the arb distribution manifold with the arb solenoids. Then the rear locker air line goes down to the rear axle, and the front locker air line follows the compressor to manifold line back up the frame rail and to the front axle. Both solenoids either spew gear oil, or the lines fill with gear oil and the lockers can't engage.

No major leaks in the system. Compressor only cycles on once every 25-30min for about 3 seconds. With or without the lockers engaged.

From my understanding of ARBs, inside the diff is the bulkhead fitting, a seal on the arb housing, and a hard line that connects those 2. When air goes into the bulkhead and pressurizes the arb, it locks a gear into the spider gears thus locking them together. And the housing seal is what keeps the air separate from the gear oil. As long as that seal is intact, then no air should be going into the axle, and no gear oil should be coming back up the airline. I've replaced those seals myself, as well as had them replaced professionally, and nothing fixes it.

I would imagine that, as long as that seal is intact, it shouldn't matter where the solenoids are located either, since the seal is downstream of the solenoids?

 

[Winchested]

Ya, just figure if they are up higher in the system it would be alot harder for gear oil to get to them, you wouldn't think it possible since air pressure is always pushing down rather than up back to the compressor.

Interesting. Yes my ARB manifold is right attached to the compressor so solenoids are with it under my seat, run the hoses through the floor board along frame rails.

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

Ya, just figure if they are up higher in the system it would be alot harder for gear oil to get to them, you wouldn't think it possible since air pressure is always pushing down rather than up back to the compressor.

Interesting. Yes my ARB manifold is right attached to the compressor so solenoids are with it under my seat, run the hoses through the floor board along frame rails.

Ya but the front axle has a lot of distance for gear oil to travel, and it just gets gear oil backed up in the airline and doesn't let the lockers engage.

 

[Winchested]

That's crazy. Do you have to undo the lines and blow em out? How often and quick does this happen?

 

[MSO Ash]

Land Rovers and Toyotas built Australia 😁

..and Patrols :)

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

That's crazy. Do you have to undo the lines and blow em out? How often and quick does this happen?

Yup. Pretty much after every trip... sometimes during the trip too. I didn't have to in Moab surprisingly... but it was clearing itself by dumping the gear oil all over my rear diff. I had numerous people come up to me letting me know something was broken lol

 

[IowaOffRoad]

4x4toyotatyler go get some cheap disposable online oil/water separators for paint gun applications. Good for shop air system line pressures, mount it as close to the diff as you can without it getting broken. Might work.
Are you running a proper axle vent tube or the closed accordion style?

 

[4x4toyotatyler]

4x4toyotatyler go get some cheap disposable online oil/water separators for paint gun applications. Good for shop air system line pressures, mount it as close to the diff as you can without it getting broken. Might work.
Are you running a proper axle vent tube or the closed accordion style?

Proper axle vent tube. I used to run the accordion but blew them out the first run lol. So now it's just an open ended vent tube with the ends in a "clean" area so it doesn't get debris in it.

 

[Seth_PDX]

I know I’m late, playing some catch-up.

In my high school days, I would drive any Jeep my dad got fixed up. CJ-5, CJ-2A, M38, etc.
It would drive me crazy when other people called their sidekicks/2door soft top rig “Jeeps”.
Granted, that was 20+ years and 5 Toyotas ago.