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1978 F250 400 Dual Fuel

Provience

Kill!
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Member Number
15
Messages
9,287
Loc
Gatesville, TX
needed a thread title I could find and I'll also have questions and needs with direction and stuff, so hopefully it is click bait enough :flipoff2:

also need a place I can take random notes and hold random pictures :rasta:

I was always a 100% street legal, drive to the trails, drive it home even when held together with zip ties kind of offroader. Trailers are for queens and all that, until I had a 4 hour drive turn into an 8+ hour drive due to driveshaft damage. :homer:

So out came tow rig #1. 1986 4runner 4cyl with a toy bar

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as you can imagine, that made exactly 1 trip :laughing:

it was time to upgrade to something that could use a legitimate trailer. So i scrounged up some cash and bought a $1000 trailer and a $500 van. previously used as storage, was a homebrew hightop because a tree fell on it and i was happy to drive it home. V8, fuel injection, O/D trans, all the things for a proper tow rig

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Alright, so proper is a relative term. cut the hubs up and put 2002-2015 ram 1500 brakes and a banging stereo in it and was met with success. Trailer brake controller would have been nice, but it worked as is.

Things like an interior are more important to other people in my family than me, so it was time for tow rig #TheThird. Certainly I had to stay dodge so i could reuse my hubs, had to stay 2500 because the 1500 vans are basically cars, while the 2500 are 1500 pickups. Really wanted to stick with the small V8 for fuel economy.

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and all was right in the world for a long time. (well, a year anyways). very long story short, the catalytic converter failed and this got a 5.9 magnum swap with a mild hughes cam, transgo shift kit, limited slip/disc brake rear end (9.25) and a straight pipe-ish 2-1/4" from the factory manifolds to 3" to magnaflow 14419. Absolutely kicks ass and i've been driving it nearly every day for a year (after it sat for 3 years, longest engine swap ever).

anyways, it shit the bed right before i had a trip from WA to UT scheduled (in 2017 :eek: ), so ran out and bought a $900 suburban. very excited to have a 454/4L80E/4WD/Full Float rear with gov-bomb :smokin:

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made the trip despite heavy oil consumption, not long after I ended up paying a shop to put a brand new engine in it. At that point, I resolved to own this thing for the next 10+ years of my life. it was the last vehicle i would ever need. flawless in everyway and absurd performance with the trailer.

too good to last. talk in General Chit-Chat about absurd used vehicle prices, talking to co-workers looking for cheap commuter cars, day-dreaming about putting the van drivetrain into something more interesting resulted in a couple days of craigslist watching....
 
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Started seeing some neat older fords. Almost bought and built a ford for my buggy before i ended up buying a used drivetrain as a package deal and the buick body. No time for regrets, so i'll pretend i made the better purchase with used parts

anyways, now on to Tow Rig Plead The Fifth!

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it's the opposite of the suburban in every way. 1978 F250 400/C6/2WD/D60, 16.5" wheels and a gang of wiring issues and DUAL FUEL! are you F'n kidding me?!?! She's got a tommy gate too? and gah-dang cruise control of all things :laughing:

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important note, my kid is nearly 8 years old now :eek: :eek: (bought the 4runner to have a backseat for a baby, didn't own it long :rasta: ) and finally is no longer required to be in a booster seat and the wife finally agreed that he could ride on a bench seat, hence no great need for an extra or double cab. insane price jump for those things
 
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Anybody in particular that I should be getting little parts from? LMC Truck - Free Catalogs for Chevy, GMC, Ford and Dodge Trucks and SUVs LMC has a pretty kickass and easy to use catalog with all the little stuff, so things like door panels and window gaskets and parking brake cables (all wrecked pretty good) will probably come from there, pending stories of terrible experience.

Rear window is broken, turns out they are all over in the junkyard and a slider rear window claims to be $35-75 locally, beats the pants off $250-300 for a new one.

transmission shifts like a dream, tight and crisp, it's already plumbed through the radiator and has an aux cooler up front as well.

but the motor. oh that poor old goat. I've been doing a bit of reading and it seems to be an absolute victim of the EPA. On the plus side, there is no gasket left between the intake and the valley up front, hence all the oil. since the intake has to come off regardless...



Weiand 8010: Action +Plus Intake Manifold Ford 351M-400 2V Heads | JEGS Weiand 8010 will get plugged on in it's place

real question though, carbs. Haven't messed with one in nearly a decade.

Holley 4150 600CFM manual choke looks to be the thing.

any difference between that and the 1850 or 4160 or Edelbrock 1405 or 9905 besides the price? $330-380 is the range for the 5 on ebay (not used)

the next two issues would be cam and heads, but i'm not looking to go that far yet, unless my other cars sell for more than expected.
 
Truck is cool AF. :smokin:

added bonus, they are about half the price here in WA compared to TX while the burb and van seem to be about the same :eek: so buy the truck here, sell the other two here, drive to TX and probably sell the truck down there in a couple years when something else catches my eye :rasta:
 
I think you will be disappointed going from the Suburban to the Ferd. Those 400s are very disappointing they are a very good way to turn lots of fuel into nothing in return. I know I have one.

Seriously that Suburban could do everything way better than that old truck besides look cool and hauling nasty crap in the bed.
 
Look up Dennis Carpenter for door panels and other interior stuff. The 400 is an under rated engine when treated to some breathing. I'd still swap a 460 but that's me. Last 400 I had, had a 625 Carter on it if I remember correctly. Had head work and other stuff too.
 
Anybody in particular that I should be getting little parts from? LMC Truck - Free Catalogs for Chevy, GMC, Ford and Dodge Trucks and SUVs LMC has a pretty kickass and easy to use catalog with all the little stuff, so things like door panels and window gaskets and parking brake cables (all wrecked pretty good) will probably come from there, pending stories of terrible experience.

Rear window is broken, turns out they are all over in the junkyard and a slider rear window claims to be $35-75 locally, beats the pants off $250-300 for a new one.

transmission shifts like a dream, tight and crisp, it's already plumbed through the radiator and has an aux cooler up front as well.

but the motor. oh that poor old goat. I've been doing a bit of reading and it seems to be an absolute victim of the EPA. On the plus side, there is no gasket left between the intake and the valley up front, hence all the oil. since the intake has to come off regardless...



Weiand 8010: Action +Plus Intake Manifold Ford 351M-400 2V Heads | JEGS Weiand 8010 will get plugged on in it's place

real question though, carbs. Haven't messed with one in nearly a decade.

Holley 4150 600CFM manual choke looks to be the thing.

any difference between that and the 1850 or 4160 or Edelbrock 1405 or 9905 besides the price? $330-380 is the range for the 5 on ebay (not used)

the next two issues would be cam and heads, but i'm not looking to go that far yet, unless my other cars sell for more than expected.
If I was going to keep the 400 I would put a 4 barrel intake and a Holly Sniper efi on it.

I would rather swap it with a 6.2 na Diesel. At least I would get good fuel mileage for a gutless wonder. Actually I think 6.2 Diesels had more get up and go.
 
I think you will be disappointed going from the Suburban to the Ferd. Those 400s are very disappointing they are a very good way to turn lots of fuel into nothing in return. I know I have one.

Seriously that Suburban could do everything way better than that old truck besides look cool and hauling nasty crap in the bed.

The suburban is an absolute tank. Seriously, new motor, tons of power, think about touching the key and it will start in 0* weather, cruise 80+mph if you aren't paying attention and rarely notices the trailer. it's awesome. it even supports my long stance that "trucks are stupid" by being a crossover.

that said, it's beyond bland. Put highway tires on it a few years ago, they stay at 65psi and are quiet and comfortable. lately, whenever i drive it, all i can think about is driving something else. it doesn't even have any annoying quirks that pop up sometimes.

Maybe it's a sign I need to get a divorce? :laughing: even just hanging out with my wife doing nothing, i don't think that i'd rather her be somebody else (well, maybe nobody at times :laughing: )

then there is the van, loud as balls, super entertaining to drive, i can't keep my foot out of it pulling from a stop sign because it is just fun. damned riot. still needs a little bit of work on the interior, but nothing crazy. it's everything i hoped it would be and i'll probably only be able to sell it for enough to pay for the ford and whatever parts i need for it. but again, it just works. it just does stuff and aside from the carpet, i can't complain about it in any way.
 
If I was going to keep the 400 I would put a 4 barrel intake and a Holly Sniper efi on it.

I would rather swap it with a 6.2 na Diesel. At least I would get good fuel mileage for a gutless wonder. Actually I think 6.2 Diesels had more get up and go.

t'aint nothing wrong with a 6.2 or a 6.5 NA :laughing:

had one of those for a brief moment, all it did was remind me that I don't care for diesels even if they get 20 mpg. and i'm eyes wide open that this 400/C6 combo will get worse MPG than the 454/4L80 at every turn and every situation.

I actually looked at the Sniper EFI. pretty cool setup, even the $1k price tag is pretty cheap, considering what you get. I'm not sure how well it would work with the LPG setup though. if it would tolerate being shut off and used as a blow through
 
Look up Dennis Carpenter for door panels and other interior stuff. The 400 is an under rated engine when treated to some breathing. I'd still swap a 460 but that's me. Last 400 I had, had a 625 Carter on it if I remember correctly. Had head work and other stuff too.

I will check out Dennis Carpenter as well, thanks :beer:

there are a few builds on other forums with dyno charts showing the 400 putting out 500+lbft of TQ without too terribly much work and pretty easily 400+ with heads/cam/intake. for the price, that is tough to beat, especially if i can do it a little at a time. I'd like to keep anything i do to this thing as "afternoon" type jobs and not get too in depth. Swapping an E4OD would probably be the biggest thing in the "eventually" zone.

overdrive really is nice to have
 
I dont know anything about the propane deal. I was just saying for reliability the Sniper EFI would be nice.

I get what you are saying now this is just an extra toy. I thought you were thinking this would replace the Suburban as a tow rig.

I get that I have all kinds of old junkers. But if I was to haul my rig cross country I would rather pull with my Yukon XL Denali than my old one ton Ford. I don’t usually go more than 30 miles away pulling with the Ford. Its a big heavy winch truck too so Im sure yours will do better mpg. I just use mine when I need to load something.
 
Gear vendors for the od. Have one in my 79 and like it.

hadn't even considered that.

this is the 7,900lb GVW version which should be 3.54 axle ratio (from what i can find, without actually lifting a tire or pulling the cover) so an add on OD would certainly be sweet.

edit: vin code says 3.54 rear gear
 
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I dont know anything about the propane deal. I was just saying for reliability the Sniper EFI would be nice.

I get what you are saying now this is just an extra toy. I thought you were thinking this would replace the Suburban as a tow rig.

I get that I have all kinds of old junkers. But if I was to haul my rig cross country I would rather pull with my Yukon XL Denali than my old one ton Ford. I don’t usually go more than 30 miles away pulling with the Ford. Its a big heavy winch truck too so Im sure yours will do better mpg. I just use mine when I need to load something.

the sniper EFI is certainly more attractive than doing a junkyard "factory" EFI swap.


this will 100% replace the suburban as a tow rig. turns out, when you spend 5 years building a buggy, you don't tow that much :laughing: I still use the trailer for stuff, but nothing close to car weight.

i'm moving from WA to TX next spring and need to thin the herd. if this pile will pull the trailer with the buick/buggy on it, the rental moving truck can tow my wifes car, and then we won't need the motorhome to tow anything.

that leaves the van and the 'burb getting sold here in WA. Know anybody that wants to buy a super reliable 1997 K2500 suburban with about 15k miles on a new motor?
 
just a note on the gearworks O/D

Ford 3-Speed Auto - Gearvendors

Looks like it would net:

1st: 2.46
2nd: 1.46
3rd: 1:00
OD: 0.78

at a cost of $3,000 for everything new and direct from them

VS

E4OD

E4OD and 4R100 Control and Swap Info (usshift.com)

1st: 2.71
2nd: 1.54
3rd: 1:00
OD: 0.71

at a cost of $700 for their basic standalone controller/wiring harness plus transmission, mounts and some homebrew work (easily able to outpace $3k)

pretty interesting options
 
regarding transmissions, again, this is a years down the road notion...apparently people are being met with success and US Shift (link in post above 6R80 Control and Swap Info (usshift.com) ) makes a stand alone controller for the newer 6R80 which is, nifty.

460 6R80 Transmission Swap | 460 Ford Forum

Here is a list of what I bought.
  • 2011 and up 6R80 2wd 3.5 ecoboost. It has to be the 3.5 bell housing. local junk yard $600 with converter w/38k
  • PA68508 transmission adapter plate $523 from Summit
  • PA68509 Converter Adapter to use the stock 6R80 converter $96 from Summit
  • US Shift Quick 6 controller $1200 from Late Model Restoration
  • Ordered a rear flange yoke Dana spicer 2-2-03489 should be here Thursday to make sure it works $45 from northern driveline.
  • I’ll have my local driveline shop make me a new driveline probably gonna be around $200
  • I’m putting mine in a 66 F100 so I’m probably gonna build the transmission crossmember.

I'm running a 6r80 behind my 521 in my 1970 torino. I'm using the 1/2 inch converter spacers with the stock 3.5 ecoboost converter no problem so far. Iv driven this combo for about 100 miles, at first the shifts are really harsh but once you get some miles on it things really smooth out. Shift are smooth on low throttle, but drop the the hammer and she will chirp 1-3. Downshift are quick and precise. Well worth the investment.

Bendtsen Speed Gems sells an adapter for the 6r80 out of a 5.0-5.4 engine. It is a complete kit included the starter and all bolts and washers etc.
Part number FO1002501. $1675.00
The advantage of using the V8 trans is the eco boost has fewer clutches then the Mustang GT and the F-150 has more clutches then the GT.
Greg



6R80 Ratios

1st: 4.17
2nd: 2.34
3rd: 1.52
4th: 1.14
5th: 0.87
6th: 0.69

the "granny gear" first gives the benefit of being more close to being able to drop the rear end ratio, say 4.1 to 3.5 for still easier takeoff under load from a stop and even lower cruise speeds.

alright, i need to put that out of my mind for a bit :laughing:

edit:

on a lighter note, this is a non-catalyst and non-smog pump engine, so that makes inspections and such going forward a much easier deal :smokin:

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and a shot of the super trick aftermarket stuff on the dash. Windshield wiper delay box center, pretty sure cruise control toggle to the right, LPG/Gasoline selector valve on the bottom. Not pictured, trailer brake controller and in cab timing retard/advance control

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Do you absolutely need an automatic? Since it's 2wd you could drop a 429/5spd out of an 80s medium duty truck right into it for less money than all the other options you've listed. Spread is the same as a modern 5spd so if you gear accordingly it should be just as pleasant to tow with as a 460/zf5
 
The suburban is an absolute tank. Seriously, new motor, tons of power, think about touching the key and it will start in 0* weather, cruise 80+mph if you aren't paying attention and rarely notices the trailer. it's awesome. it even supports my long stance that "trucks are stupid" by being a crossover.

that said, it's beyond bland. Put highway tires on it a few years ago, they stay at 65psi and are quiet and comfortable. lately, whenever i drive it, all i can think about is driving something else. it doesn't even have any annoying quirks that pop up sometimes.

Maybe it's a sign I need to get a divorce? :laughing: even just hanging out with my wife doing nothing, i don't think that i'd rather her be somebody else (well, maybe nobody at times :laughing: )

then there is the van, loud as balls, super entertaining to drive, i can't keep my foot out of it pulling from a stop sign because it is just fun. damned riot. still needs a little bit of work on the interior, but nothing crazy. it's everything i hoped it would be and i'll probably only be able to sell it for enough to pay for the ford and whatever parts i need for it. but again, it just works. it just does stuff and aside from the carpet, i can't complain about it in any way.

You started this thread talking about all the problems you’ve had towing... mostly because of bad choices in tow rigs. :flipoff2:

and now you want to get rid of your best toe rig because it’s... just too good at its job? :confused:

Seems a little masochistic....
 
Ugh, forget putting an overdrive on a non lockup c6, that's a huge expensive shit sandwich, an e40d is a decent tranny for the eta, but expensive to rebuild and tranny controllers are bucks. I'd do a zf5 swap, or a 460 zf5 swap so you don't have to buy swap parts

Tow with the burb.
toy with the ford.
every single time I sell a suburban, I regret it and start looking for another just like it.....


Edit: double fuck that 3k overdrive, for 3k you could swap a 12v 47re into it and have something useful
 
Do you absolutely need an automatic? Since it's 2wd you could drop a 429/5spd out of an 80s medium duty truck right into it for less money than all the other options you've listed. Spread is the same as a modern 5spd so if you gear accordingly it should be just as pleasant to tow with as a 460/zf5

i'd like to stay automagic. the current C6 is just fantastic, so while the transmission swap is an interesting conversation and i'm impressed with the options available, it is certainly far down the list of things.
 
e4od can be dumped in with no controller, you get manual lever positions of 1, 2 and 4 with no wires
when I had one my thought on it was that I'd get one of those 4-spd arcade machine shfters to work the solenoids, but that never happened I just used two switches on the dash

you will need 1/2" spacers between the flexplate and converter (or maybe the crank and flexplate), as 400s got the same bolt pattern but the bellhousing was a half inch shallower than the 460
 
You started this thread talking about all the problems you’ve had towing... mostly because of bad choices in tow rigs. :flipoff2:

and now you want to get rid of your best toe rig because it’s... just too good at its job? :confused:

Seems a little masochistic....

they've all worked :laughing: I had to get rid of the 4runner because rear facing car seat for the baby was too much to handle, I had to get rid of the candy van because the complete lack of interior was too much to handle, I want to get rid of the hotrod van because it works well and is nearly done but needs some body/interior (wood) work as is and the suburban just drew the short end of the stick because I don't want to shuffle that many cars. I don't blame my wife for driving any of these decisions, i'd have found another excuse to sell them off either way as i'm terrible at keeping cars :laughing:

we also bought a class C motorhome last year, so any long term trips if the buick is ever done will be handled with that thing. F250 can handle all the day trip type stuff.

but yeah, the 'burb is just too good. I'm surprised how much I don't like driving it after a few years. I like the GMT400 body style and everything about it is premo for the task. i'm still generally convinced it will outpull any pre-2008 or so diesel stock for stock, maybe i'll get another one at some point.
 
[486 said:
;n338359]e4od can be dumped in with no controller, you get manual lever positions of 1, 2 and 4 with no wires
when I had one my thought on it was that I'd get one of those 4-spd arcade machine shfters to work the solenoids, but that never happened I just used two switches on the dash

you will need 1/2" spacers between the flexplate and converter (or maybe the crank and flexplate), as 400s got the same bolt pattern but the bellhousing was a half inch shallower than the 460

I don't know anything about the e4od, but if it is just a basic control like that, it certainly makes things easier. that's how the Toyota auto's are, super easy to control standalone.

if the bellhousing is shorter, wouldn't that just mean you need to use a converter that matches the trans then? bellhousing length shouldn't matter on that end, or is the 460 pattern set back into the block a half inch?
 
they've all worked :laughing: I had to get rid of the 4runner because rear facing car seat for the baby was too much to handle, I had to get rid of the candy van because the complete lack of interior was too much to handle, I want to get rid of the hotrod van because it works well and is nearly done but needs some body/interior (wood) work as is and the suburban just drew the short end of the stick because I don't want to shuffle that many cars. I don't blame my wife for driving any of these decisions, i'd have found another excuse to sell them off either way as i'm terrible at keeping cars :laughing:

we also bought a class C motorhome last year, so any long term trips if the buick is ever done will be handled with that thing. F250 can handle all the day trip type stuff.

but yeah, the 'burb is just too good. I'm surprised how much I don't like driving it after a few years. I like the GMT400 body style and everything about it is premo for the task. i'm still generally convinced it will outpull any pre-2008 or so diesel stock for stock, maybe i'll get another one at some point.

previous tow rigs were too much to handle because they needed work.

So replacing your "just too good" tow rig with a project makes perfect sense.... :flipoff2::lmao:
 
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