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13 speed roadranger in 1997 Ram 3500

Mr. Mindless

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Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #1 Aug 25, 2010 (Edited)When something breaks I like to upgrade it. Just after I got my high miles Cummins last fall, 5th fell off. It had been "repaired" previously so the main shaft was shot. I put a reman transmission in along with a nice South Bend dual disc clutch, and was happy.

5th gear broke two teeth 9 months and 17,700 miles later. Not happy, I decided I wasn't going to stick with the NV4500. I pull heavy and hated the huge ratio splits, and I have no intention of breaking another transmission. An NV5600 would have helped the large splits, but I've seen heavy towing users making good power break them too, and the lack of availability made me nervous as well - and the cost was almost identical to my cost with this setup from most sources (though with much less fab work...).

I'd looked through my options when last the trans failed, looking primarily at any way I could get more overdrive out of any swap option. At the time I'd restricted my search to 8 speeds and below, and therefore didn't come across the Eaton RTOO series. This time, I did, and that's what I settled on. I sourced a fully rebuilt RTOO9513 from Casey's Truck Salvage World in Depew NY. I picked it up on Friday 8/13, finished tearing out the NV4500, replaced 5th, strapped it to a pallet and sent it on to its new life via Forward Air on Monday, and test drove my 13 speed Cummins Dodge on Thursday 8/19. Friday and Saturday I finished building a doghouse and put the interior back together, and Sunday-Monday I took it on a 1100 mile test drive to Minnesota.
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#2 Aug 25, 2010In the interest of time, I left it 4x2 for now. I have a divorced NP205 that I'll throw in sometime. I'll air shift probably just the front between N and H, I shouldn't need low range with my gearing options. Low and Low Reverse are very nearly the same as R and 1 in low range of the 241 with the 5 or 6 speed. I should be able to squeeze a one piece front shaft around the transmission, but it'll be interesting to see when I get to it.

What I got from Casey's (in my wheeler, since the tow pig is the only other rig I have on the road) was the transmission, SAE #2 clutch housing, clutch, shifter and RoadRanger knob, 14" flywheel, and some fasteners. They had a fun yard truck - two of them actually....

Some things to watch for:
the flywheel is thicker, and as such the stock flywheel bolts would be too short.
most SAE clutch housings have the starter on the passenger side. My stock starter would not clear the block in that location, and the starter I got with the swap parts did not clear the frame.
setting up a manual clutch linkage from scratch is every bit of the bitch you could imagine.
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#3 Aug 25, 2010A few pictures of the trans...
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#4 Aug 25, 2010Obviously there was some floor cutting to be done, but otherwise the main pieces just bolt-on....
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#5 Aug 25, 2010Then of course there were some mounts to make.

If I was going to do it over again I finally thought of a better way to do the rear mount than the stock type spring mount: I'd go from those two main studs backwards to a double valve spring type mount to a crossmember that more tightly wraps the trans that I could then attach to the frame to keep the trans tunnel from needing the wide bump outs I had to make to cover that leaf spring mount.
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Mr. Mindless

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#6 Aug 25, 2010As I mentioned the clutch linkage was a total bear. The stock linkage location only gives about 2" of throw to the hydro setup, and that just didn't cut it. I came further down the clutch lever inside to increase throw. Parts of the lever assembly are 3/4x3/4 heims, 3/4 solid rod, and 1"x.120 tubing. I notice no deflection, and I'm pretty happy with the effort and feel. It was a pain to come up with something that worked, and then to make it match needed throw and pedal position. I was also stubborn about not making a new hole in the firewall; that would have made some things simpler.
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#7 Aug 25, 2010More clutch linkage, and clutch housing mounts.
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1,353 Posts #8 Aug 25, 2010how much did that new trans set you back?
Plasma Table Build / Torchmate 2x2
Chevy Build with 5TonRocks......Coming Soon.....:flipoff2:
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #9 Aug 25, 2010Once the clutch linkage and bell mounts were done, I still had the spring mounts to take care of. I actually didn't take any pictures of them directly. They're just angle capped with 1/4" plate welded to the frame. Driver side needed a spacer, which I used some random 2x4x.25 box for.
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#10 Aug 25, 2010Obviously there's much more to come in the build (we're only up to Tuesday night), and there's much more to come in the first drive stories as well, but I'm calling it quits for tonight... Nnightcrawlers

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1,256 Posts #11 Aug 25, 2010wow
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​​

what ate the lines for on top of the tranny? defiantely lookin forward to the rest of your writeup
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scotty
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327 Posts #12 Aug 25, 2010Very nice, good job
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2,823 Posts #13 Aug 25, 2010That's bad ass!! My buddy and I have been looking at an Eaton swap if/when our NV5600's go out.

Can't wait to see the finished product.
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113 Posts #14 Aug 25, 2010What a teaser. Here I was excited to read about something cool and you stop telling the story partially through what you've already finished up!

Anyhow, nice job using something way overkill for the application. I like it. Also way nice job not putting in an automatic, since those are for bitches.SaveShare
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190 Posts #15 Aug 25, 2010
nightcrawlers said:
wow
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what ate the lines for on top of the tranny? defiantely lookin forward to the rest of your writeup
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If you meant what "are" those lines, they are probably air lines.1980 CJ5 LS1, 4l60e, dana 300, mild suspension work, 35's
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809 Posts #16 Aug 25, 2010Was thinking along the same lines as you....except I can get my hands on a 3560 6 speed allison. What did you do for the large yoke on the trans to the 1410 on axleSaveShare
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1,565 Posts #17 Aug 25, 2010I got an old 5-speed Spicer for my '90 Dodge but haven't been able to find a cheap flywheel housing (or flywheel for that matter). I have a #3 housing which is more than enough room for the kind of clutch I'd need, but the Spicer clutch housing is #2 and I don't think I'll be able to find a #3 for it. I haven't even tried calling a big truck junkyard since I just can't imagine that having the parts pulled would be anywhere near my price range (I got the trans itself for $50).SaveShare
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6,405 Posts #18 Aug 25, 2010bad ass! I'm assuming the tranny is out of a cummins powered highway tractor? Just curious, the 13 is an awesome tranny, but would it have not been simpler to put a 7 or 10 in instead?Doc - "Tackle me in a Walmart and its game on, I will beat the shit out of you with a toaster oven."
 

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1,256 Posts #21 • Aug 25, 2010 (Edited)
LS1_CJ said:
If you meant what "are" those lines, they are probably air lines.​



doh! :homer:
FordFascist said:
Are you mounting the transmission to the body with that cheezy looking piece of flat bar?

I truly hope that is not permanent. You need to build a lot beefier mount if you expect that to last, not to mention not wanting it to rip the floor out of the truck.​



ummm... mebbe i dont spell or type too good but im pretty sure that mount is to support the seats or the new tranny tunnel or something,not the floor supporting the tranny. wow...

anyway,im thinkin we should prolly let the man finish up his build thread before we criticize.scotty
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2,446 Posts #22 • Aug 25, 2010Pretty sure that flat bar (spring actually) rests on top of the frame rails of the pickup. That is where they rest on the big truck the trans came out of. Supports the back of the trans.
I think that is the part he had to make spacers for that he mentioned earlier.:shaking:
Has to flex some since engine is supported up front and at the flywheel housing

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1,256 Posts #23 • Aug 25, 2010Hmm... Crafty scotty
85 grand waggoneer(what's left of it)
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #24 • Aug 25, 2010The main supports for the transmission are at the clutch housing. That rear bar is a spring type mount, and of course goes to mounts on the frame not the body.

There are two large studs on the top of big truck transmissions that help support the rear of the transmission. They go to either a spring steel leaf that spans the frame rails, as I'm using, or to a solid bracket using large coil springs to a solid crossmember. as I said above, if I ever redo the rear mount, that's the one thing I would change. Whether you think so or not, there are no strength issues with this setup, it is as it is done from the factory in all heavy trucks.



No idea what the trans came out of, but they were common in Ford Louisvilles and F700s among others. The clutch housing can come out of anything with a SAE #2 trans powered by a B series Cummins, there are a lot of them in class 5-6 trucks.

Yes, those are the air lines to control the range shifting and splitter.

As for the 13 versus an 8, 9, or 10 - exact same level of difficulty (air, mounts, pull mechanical clutch, SAE bell, etc etc) but the RTOO gives me a .62 top gear which is the same final drive as throwing 3.55s in my truck. I've always gotten terrible milage with this truck. I've got 88 tanks of fuel in my logs, 10 have been over 15mpg. Two of those are 16.4 on my way from NY to MN just now. I've never done this trip unloaded so I don't have a direct comparison to make. I'm hoping to improve on my usual 10.5-12.5 when towing too but I won't know about that for a little while. In any case it's nice to be in my power band at a 2000RPM cruise instead of over it at 2500RPM to do 73.

Now, on with the build....

#25 • Aug 25, 2010
Harold Phipps said:
Pretty sure that flat bar (spring actually) rests on top of the frame rails of the pickup. That is where they rest on the big truck the trans came out of. Supports the back of the trans.
I think that is the part he had to make spacers for that he mentioned earlier.:shaking:
Has to flex some since engine is supported up front and at the flywheel housing.​



Thanks for having a clue :beer:

:flipoff2: to those who didn't get it the first time around


#26 • Aug 25, 2010So when we left our fearless builder, the trans was hung and the clutch was all set. No air, no shifter, no starter, no drivelines.... and less than a week to a planned Minnesota trip.

As I touched on, the starter was a toughie. The stocker hit the block. I tried to shave it down, but couldn't take off as much meat as I needed to without removing all the body that one of the electric motor studs threads into. The boss it was hitting is the one best lit in the photo below.

The starter I got with the clutch housing was very into the frame, and I couldn't flip it 180˚*since it, too, hit the block.

I found a high torque starter (as opposed to gear reduction) that was smaller, with an in-line motor, for a Ford Cummins application via DB Electric. I had to trim the end of the engine mount bolt off, and remove a small gusset on the stock engine mount that you can see in the pic below (not worried with the addition of the beefy clutch housing mount) to get it to clear, but it then mounted up, and just barely cleared the frame.

I also had to switch around the battery cables to hook up the passenger side starter. That was quite simple, I just had to swap the positive cables on each battery around and extend the solenoid trigger over to the passenger side.








#27 • Aug 25, 2010Driveline was pretty easy. Stock setup is 4x.095 tube, there is a 1710 Spicer yoke for 4x.134 tube. I had my driveline shop shave down the slip stub to fit the 4x.134 tube and retubed the shaft from the carrier bearing forward. Reminder that for the moment the truck is a two wheel drive. When I put a tcase back in, I'll have the front half of the shaft shortened and keep the front two existing joints and slip, and go into the 205, then have a new complete rear shaft made to run from the case to the rear axle. I'm hoping I can put the case far enough back to have the rear shaft be one piece. If I'm really lucky a single piece front will be able to happen as well, but I'm not betting on that


In the second pic you can see a new yellow line, that's my air feed line. I got a 12v Thomas compressor mounted on the inner fender right next to the PDC under the hood. It outputs to a manifold with the pressure switch right there. I have the power side of a relay running straight from the battery to a 30a fuse and the compressor, and the trigger side running from ignion switched power through a 75/100psi switch from an old HF compressor. That cheapie's tank is mounted to the passenger side framerail.

You may have noticed that the starter completely fills up where the exhaust used to go. I forgot to take any pictures of it since it was one of the last things I did, but I cut up my stock system and reused the pieces for a straight dump from the turbo down out the fender well and back through most of the same 3" system with 5" expansion chamber, dumping behind the cab under the bed. No drone, no complaints.









#28 • Aug 26, 2010The shifter was a bit tall to begin with. A couple bends and cuts and it was good to go. This brings us to Thursday, and a test drive. Plenty of unsynchrod gear grinding, but it was a 97% success from a functionality perspective. The 3% is that I didn't guess right on the speedometer hookup: I had the 2 wires reversed. The stock speedo is a 3 wire hookup; the Eaton uses a two wire, so the ground is ignored. Once I flipped the wires, the signal was monstrously off: much too fast. I knew a Dakota Digital SGI-5 was my answer, but couldn't find one in stock around Rochester. A smart friend suggested picking one up at Summit in Akron on my way to MN, so I placed a will-call order and prepared for on the road installation by running the signal and to-PCM wires to the dash, and giving myself a +12v and ground as well.

Then all that was left was sealing it all up.... That ended up being more time consuming than I expected.Attachments








 

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#29 Aug 26, 2010All hand bent on my workbench, trimmed, tacked in the truck, and full welded in the driveway. The bottom side has a quart of Herculiner on it, and the top side is Dynomatted.

The carpet ended up pretty lumpy but fits well enough for now. Both seat bases ended up needing some trimming. The passenger seat needs further work, with the slider track hitting the doghouse. I'm going to flip the riser and track so it can slide forward again for good rear seat ingress/egress.Attachments

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#30 Aug 26, 2010I ended up finishing up late on Saturday night, slept in, and left for Minnesota midday Sunday for Akron and Summit, needing to make the 290 miles before 21:00 to catch them before closing time.

Everything went smoothly until running 271 south past Cleveland. I heard an air line pop off, and checked my gauge and saw 0psi. I had 30-40 miles to go to Summit; I quickly remembered that I'd left my extra air fittings in my garage. I wasn't sure where anything had failed, and I wasn't sure exactly what would happen with no air pressure.

As I was thinking about how far it might be to the next Lowes/ Home Depot/ whatever, it fell out of range into no-man's land. I had an exit ramp to coast down and pulled over to investigate. I had quite a stack of failures to deal with.....

- I'd forgotten about a temp fitting I used going to the 2 gallon tank. I was out of hose barbs, and used an air tool as a mockup fitting. It didn't leak, and I'd forgotten about it... The air line popped off there and the hose clamps vacated.
- I borrowed a clamp off the compressor, but couldn't get it to hold. Stole another doubled clamp, but then it popped off the compressor.
- I replumbed the system to skip the tank, using the tank drain as a plug for that port, and replaced the extra clamps up at the compressor.
- System was now holding 100psi, but the shifter controls were doing nothing. Still in no-man's land range.

I couldn't figure out what was wrong. I started tracing every line under the sun, looking for anything out of place, looking for any way to plumb it to force high range - but discovered wrong fitting sizes.... And I had no adaptors.

I finally discovered the root of the issue. There's a filter/regulator on the air supply to the transmission, and the cap and spring vacated, allowing no pressure to the trans lines. I really, really lucked out and the plunger was still there, otherwise I'd have been truely stuck. I called the only nearby fleet service place Google found for me and he had nothing for me; expecting the closest part would be in Youngstown...

I tried a couple different socket-and-ziptie combinations but every time I applied pressure it would spit the sockets out. What ended up working just barely well enough to hold in in range was just a zip tie alone. I left it in high and didn't split since even the range shift took 2-3 seconds, but it was enough to get me down to road to a Lowe's.

1" NPT was about right for the cap; the first one I grabbed was a bit too large an OD, but the second one - along with a spring from my flashlight - did the trick. The threads didn't match but it went on well enough, and with a zip tie safety it got me shifting right and back on the road.

I made it to Summit just in time (20:30), wandered a bit (my first time there) and then spent about 45 minutes driving in circles around their parking lot to get the SGI-5 set right. I had no clue what sort of signal the '97 Dodge PCM was looking for. Not knowing my final goal and having never screwed around with an SGI-5 before I had to do a lot of trial and error to choose the right output. For future reference I needed to use the 4000 pulse per mile output. I got it close in the parking lot, and tweaked it using the cruise control once I was back on the interstate. That put me within 4%, and then I clocked the odometer versus my GPS for an exact setting.

Tooling across Wisconsin on my last leg it seemed to me that the trans was getting warmer than it should - but I really had nothing to go off of. I'm just using a towel for a shift boot at this point, so I get more heat and scent leak than I really should, but even the shift lever was getting warm. All I had to go on was "hot" though - not real accurate when spec dictates that anything under 250˚F is an acceptable temp per Eaton. After I got to MN, I checked my fluid level and it was good; I picked up a water temp/oil pressure combo gauge pod from O'Riely's and now have a better positioned, lit, and matching air pressure and trans temp gauges. Tooling around town here in MN I've seen it get only to 170˚. I don't think I have anything to worry about, but now I can put a number on it and will know whether I have something to worry about.Attachments

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#31 Aug 26, 2010So that's where I stand today. I have a few things left to do:

- I'd like to add more sound deadening. My current plan is some stall mat rubber over the front floor and tunnel, under the carpet. I also came across silentrunning.us/
- Shift boot; I'm thinking double wall/heavy rubber, with a leather overboot, and a housing around it that will cover the carpet holes and contain my switch for the tcase air shift.
- air dryer; I don't want freezing issues come wintertime.
- rearrange the passenger seat inboard slider so it can go forward again.

Otherwise, aside from rebuilding the divorced 205 I got and putting 1410 yokes on it, and dealing with the CAD, I'm pretty much all set.

I really can't wait to tow through the PA hills with it. With two rigs on my 36' trailer I often gross around 23,000 - now with the trans weight gain probably closer to 23,500 - so the closer ranges will be very, very nice. I'm rarely loosing gears now that I'm accustomed to the different shift pattern, and I'm really enjoying driving it.Last Minute Motorsports
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2,446 Posts #32 Aug 26, 2010Cool you found the RTOO !!!! I wasn't aware of that one. Ratios look nice! Should work excellent for what you are doing with it!
I know guys that would have left the shift lever that long !!!:shaking:
 

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6,405 Posts #33 Aug 26, 2010There is much win in this thread......epic swap man, i'd LOVE to try that....Doc - "Tackle me in a Walmart and its game on, I will beat the shit out of you with a toaster oven."SaveShare
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30 Posts #34 Aug 26, 2010Great work...
should have used my Dyanamat!!!






Nice Job Mike.. glad to finally see pics!!
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #35 Aug 26, 2010It's all over the doghouse, Arie. Thanks again!

Like we talked about, I just need something with a bit more mass for the mid frequency noise.Last Minute Motorsports
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2,277 Posts #36 Aug 26, 2010 (Edited)Look at lizard skin, then cover that with dynamat. I'd spray the floors and back of cab, then layer on sound proofing and make sure you do the doors.1989 Jeep YJ- "Black Label"

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10,638 Posts #37 Aug 26, 2010
TN-D90 said:
Look at lizard skin, then cover that with dynamat. I'd spray the floors and back of cab, then layer on sound proofing and make sure you do the doors.​
What about just line-x on the entire floor pan after you seal it up? then put the carpet and seats back in?
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Dear lord man, you couldn't be more gay if you had Richard simmons fucking you in the ass while you suck off Neal Patrick Harris.​
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1,565 Posts #38 Aug 26, 2010I would definitely put the heaviest, thickest stuff you can find on it. I don't think it's a real subtle problem like soundproofing a regular car - no matter what you do there's a monstrous collection of spinning gears right there, and the engine is producing a huge amount of heat. I'd do as much rubberized undercoating/thick-squishy-type bedliner on both sides as you can, with reflective foil insulation on the bottom of the truck/doghouse and a ton of carpet padding on top.SaveShare
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2,781 Posts #39 Aug 27, 2010This is one of those projects that I can't keep out of my head, I'm just not sure how well it'd fit in a first gen... I'm going to fix the 'rag one last time and if it dies again, I will be going 13 speed.96 F350 XL CC PSD/5 speed 4x4... Family hauler in the making
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2,277 Posts #40 Aug 27, 2010
montecarlo31 said:
What about just line-x on the entire floor pan after you seal it up? then put the carpet and seats back in?​
I would either dynamat then spray line x or the other way around.....it really doesn't provide much in soundproofing1989 Jeep YJ- "Black Label"

www.Dixiecrawlers.com
 

Mr. Mindless

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85blue4runner

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4,040 Posts #41 • Aug 27, 2010 (Edited)linex is NOT a sound deadening material... if you want a spray use something like Lizard Cool (EDIT: http://www.lizardskin.com) they are in AZ and there is an insulating product and a sound deadening product.

Sludge is also easy to work with in open areas like that (http://www.secondskinaudio.com/sound...rum-sludge.php), but you really need to find the correct dampener for the noise you are hearing.. A thick heavy/dense material will only deaden low frequencies. So you may need several types of materials in layers to effectively combat the range of frequencies you are hearing..

.03


Mr. Mindless

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Joined Nov 9, 2003
5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #42 • Aug 27, 2010Thanks, Blue.

Right now it's actually a little quieter than stock in high range low split, but in OD split and in low range there's quite a bit more gear noise, and that what I'll be aiming to kill. Once I get a real shift boot on it I'm sure it will be much better. Since I have to pull the passenger seat to deal with the slider anyway, I'll be adding more material under the carpet. I think what would be ideal is a layer of similar material to what is stock on the firewall, which is about 1" of open cell foam backed by heavy rubber about 1/16" thick. The only down side to that is the open cell foam soaks up any spills or leaks - though the carpet pad does the same.

If I can find a way to cleanly bond something like stall mat material, I think what I'll do is ditch the carpet forward of the seats where it now fits so poorly, and make a new rubber-foam-rubber sandwich fitted to the new floor pan. I'm not sure what I could use at home to make a nicely fitted floor since it's full of compund curves. Maybe there's a good durable tape that would put up with the heat and wet and dirt exposure...

A thought that occurs is a heavy spray, glue foam to it, and spray over the foam, but there are two issues: I need the doghouse to be removable if I ever need to pull the transmission, and I'd bet most spray products would melt or be absorbed by an open cell foam.

Maybe this heavy noise absorbtion floor thing deserves a dedicated gen 4x4 topic.


Joe_88k5

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340 Posts #43 • Aug 29, 2010Awesome job Mike, looks great.Joe

'88 GMC K5, lots of dents
'01 Chevy 2500HD D/A

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LikeCchrisevans2645

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566 Posts #44 • Aug 29, 2010
Harold Phipps said:
Cool you found the RTOO !!!! I wasn't aware of that one. Ratios look nice! Should work excellent for what you are doing with it!
I know guys that would have left the shift lever that long !!!:shaking:
on mine i had to cut a foot off it the shifter to keep it from hitting the ceiling. anyway very cool, i wish i had gone with an 18 double over but 13 is ok. the reason why 18 is better is that off road in sand and other situations you may need more momentum than the gear your in allows but you'll never make it into the next gear if you try to shift. you clutch setup is nice, i drove it for months with no trans tunnel using blankets if anything. i still have to wear ear plugs when i drive. anyway like i was saying i drove it for month stepping directly on the throwout arm with my left foot. it sucked but i tried several methods of actuating it but finally had to go with a pneumatic cylinder. it sucks because there is absolutely no feel to the clutch so i'll sit at a stop light for about 10 seconds sometimes slowly letting up on it waiting for it to engage hoping i dont stall it out. as for the starter why didnt you get a flywheel housing with a driver side starter? i got that and the tranny from goodies truck parts. my starter is a pos. it broke the nose cone off withing a couple months then i got a new nose cone and in about a month it wouldnt start unless i beat it with a hammer. i ended up taking it apart and cleaning it all up and a month later i was having to beat on it again. i got another as a spare and when i couldnt get the old one to work at all i swapped them out and the damn thing started the engine and kept going until i disconnected the battery. i offset the engine as much to the passenger side as i could and was able to reuse the 2 piece front driveshaft by dropping the carrier bearing. that put the exhaust a little to close to my ac and i was seriously considering putting a starter on the passenger side as an emergency backup but theres no room. i know theres air starters for the b-series but i dont know if my air supply could handle it. a coffman starter would be awesome. anyway when i first started driving it i had servral portable air tanks in the bed in case i lost pressure. luckily my engine came out of a school bus so it had the compressor instead of the vacuum pump but i put a air tool quick connect on the tranny so i could hook it up to an external air source if necessary. i thought about getting a miniature power tank sort of thing from lowes for nail guns but never did. i would definitely recommend that for you with an electric compressor, after all anything electric will eventually fail. i didnt put an air dryer on it but i probably should. i dont need it around here but i dont want any problems when i travel. i also have the clutch lever sticking through the floor in case i have to manually actuate it. as for sound proofing i put down some peel n seal which is like dyna mat but is a lot cheaper and is available at lowes. then i have some padding like what comes stock which i'm going to put down then put mass loaded vinyl or mlv over that then carpet. not sure what i'm going to do about carpet with my large trans tunnel. i also made it removable so i think i may just cut the sound proofing and carpet and just overlap it around the doghouse. for the t case i just made a bracket that comes off the top tranny bolts and bends down 90* then the shifters mount on a bolt welded to the bracket. gives me high/low front/rear/4 wheel drive with a crawl ratio around 98:1. also i drove it for quite awhile with the tranny just hanging off the back of the engine but eventually put a c channel cross member in with homemade bushings. i never thought about a leaf spring type thing. did you cut your front cross member out? i did since i built a new one up front for the engine mount then had the other mounts coming off the flywheel housing. anyway it looks like you have everything under control but if you have any questions feel free to ask. i never did make a build thread for mine but i do have a photo album on facebook of the work i've doneF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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LikeNnightcrawlers

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1,256 Posts #45 • Aug 29, 2010Link to said photo album?
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
scotty
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566 Posts #46 • Aug 29, 2010here it is
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3&l=db15bc8e56F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winch


Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #47 • Aug 29, 2010Wow... I think I'll stick with a real pedal clutch and sealed doghouse
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
It's bad enough just having the vent next to the shifter and the cab smelling a bit of gear oil after it sits - but with windows up and the fan on high it blows the smell out quickly.

I'd like to put a strategic shutoff in place in my air system, and a hookup for a CO2 bottle for emergency air so I can at least lock it in high range to get myself mobile if something goes wrong.

I think I'll be all right with front shaft clearance but it may be too long to go single piece - and in that case with an offset carrier it'll be cake. I'm thinking of looking for a 1" coil spacer in front to help make up for the 500# weight gain, I seem to be bottoming out a bit more often than I used to.

I had no further trans issues on the way back to NY, so all-in-all it was a successful ~2200 mile shakedown run with just the initial air system issues. I will definitely be keeping an eye on transmission temps when I start to tow with it, after a couple hours at speed, it'll sit at 225-235˚F. I think it's a combination of much more limited airflow than stock and my use of cheaper non-synthetic gear oil. It takes about 250 miles to get to that temp, and only with ambient temps in the 80s, when it was cooler it did run cooler (215˚*or so in 65˚ ambients).

I wasn't able to get the driver side starter, but good info that they are out there somewhere. Others may want to look for that, it would avoid the starter rewiring and probably the exhaust modifications - though neither were too painful for me.




My short list right now is a shifter boot, followed up with the seat rail mods and sealing up a couple exhaust leaks that have a soot stain coming out of my front fender. Then it'll be time to look at mounting the tcase, getting 1410 yokes for it, and looking at JensenKennels' parts list for air shifter bits.
 

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chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #48 • Aug 29, 2010well my setup works ok now that i'm used to it but it still is a pain. as far as front end weight i've been planning on putting air bags up front. they make a kit but since mine was 2 wheel drive and is now 4 wheel drive i'm going to have to make my own. i still havent finished my exhaust. i want to get a 2nd gen exhaust manifold then run a 4" exhaust with a pacbrake. i plan on actuating it via an old school range shift button that clamps on the shift lever. i just need time, money, cooler weather, and a little more motivation. i'm also thinking of raising my bench seat up an inch or 2, putting a hinge on the front and putting air bags under the rear of the seat to make it an air ride bench seat. that plus the welding i still need to do on the dash is why i havent finished the sound proofing



Harold Phipps

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2,446 Posts #49 • Aug 30, 2010There is an isolator you can install in the stick. Sometimes that overdrive whine comes up the shifter, you just cut some stick out and weld it in. It has some rubber isolator material between the steel pieces you weld on, kinda like potted in a piece of tube. I think we got ours (years ago) from Peterbilt.
I think if you did like a 2" body lift, it would make some of the trans fit/ tunnel size issues go away, and may give some room for air circulation. (That said, I hate body lifts!, but could work in your favor in this case).
Just some ideas for those considering the swap.
Can you get an 18 speed in the 95 series? Isn't the 125 somewhat larger physically?

chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #50 • Aug 30, 2010well i have seen one 18 speed double over but i dont know if it was stock. i've heard that people will swap 7th and 8th gear to create a double overdrive in 18 speeds which i guess is also called a georgia overdrive. (yes i know that generally refers to shifting into neutral going down a hill but i've heard that it's also applied to this). rtoo 9513 breaks down to Roadranger Twin countershaft 950 lbft (or is it ftlb?) 13 speed for those that dont know. i guess they were mainly intended for the detroit 8v71. at any rate the main problem would probably be finding an sae#2 clutch housing for a heavier duty transmission. by the way on one of the earlier post theres a spec sheet that shows an 1.75" input shaft. mine came with a 2"





Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #51 • Aug 30, 20101.75 & 2" inputs are both available for the 9513. 1680 and 1710 output yokes as well.

I have a 1.75" input and a 1710 yoke.


The shifter isolator sounds totally legit, I may have to investigate that. It's quite possible some of the overdrive noise is the harmonics coming through the shifter. I can tell you that with the windows up it's quieter for the noise that reflects off the pavement... I'm sure it would keep it cooler as well - but the roadranger knob doesn't get warm so that really doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure if the 11xxx and 14xxx series are larger or not, I didn't take a tape to anything, and sitting on the rack they all just look "huge". I don't think a #2 bell would be hard to come by though, most that were sitting around looked to be #2s not #1s.

I did some reading on the "georgia overdrive" swap but could not find anything definitive and solid. I was really after the tall highway gears, if I could have gotten them out of a more common trans (like an RTO9513) I could have saved a pile of money, but being new to this realm and not being able to find solid info I pulled the trigger on the sure thing. If anyone can dig up solid info, not just hearsay, that would make a nice addition to this thread.

16751.jpg
roundhouse

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Joined Feb 1, 2003
7,598 Posts #52 • Aug 30, 2010 (Edited)Cool transplant.

You;ll get used to shifting without the clutch, just use starting off.


My Early bronco had some heat issues, and I used the foil insulation from the doghouse of a short hood class 8., and I also used the rubber mat from under the cab of a COE and I used the rubber mat from under the carpet in a Pete or KW or something.

I laid down the foil first, then the COE insulation, then the rubber foam.

FWIW, it would have been alot easier to just get a used class 8!
They've gotten really cheap with the depression and last years $5 a gal diesel.





Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #53 • Aug 30, 2010Hmm, stealing truck insulation is a great idea.

And clutches are already just for starting. That took about twice through the gears. Unfortunately with the short throw it's tough to exit one gear without tapping the opposite gear before revs match. That'll get better with practice. It's already significantly improved.



supersize75k5

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3,745 Posts #54 • Aug 31, 2010
Machinos said:
I got an old 5-speed Spicer for my '90 Dodge but haven't been able to find a cheap flywheel housing (or flywheel for that matter). I have a #3 housing which is more than enough room for the kind of clutch I'd need, but the Spicer clutch housing is #2 and I don't think I'll be able to find a #3 for it. I haven't even tried calling a big truck junkyard since I just can't imagine that having the parts pulled would be anywhere near my price range (I got the trans itself for $50).
My g/f father has been gears and manuals in medium and heavy duty trucks for years. Not promising anything, but he is pretty savvy when it comes to this stuff and seems to have plenty of parts or contacts with so many years in the biz.

Ask for allan and tell him shawn sent you.

the gear shop in phoenix
602-437-1476




heavychevyII

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595 Posts #55 • Aug 31, 2010Coolest mod ever. Can't wait to see it in person.






NitroRClover

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1,489 Posts #56 • Aug 31, 2010Nice work! I might be PMing you with some questions in the near future... going to put an RT6609A into my '95 dodge.



dieselfuel

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94 Posts #57 • Aug 31, 2010so cool, awesome job!!

we need video of this thing running through all the gears.89 GMC Suburban overlander/multi purpose build. 83 Toyota crawler build
IG: onetongmc


Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #58 • Sep 1, 2010
NitroRClover said:
going to put an RT6609A into my '95 dodge.
Can you get that with an SAE #3 bell instead of the #2? That would make the floor mods much less invasive, #3 is probably roughly the same size clutch housing as the stock bell needs. Most of the Alisons laying around at Casey's were SAE#3....

dieselfuel said:
we need video of this thing running through all the gears.
that could probably be arranged. I've split through all the top end, but I've yet to use L or 2. The L-1-2-3 might take a little practice, or a big load.




Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #59 • Sep 1, 2010So, I'm forming a plan for the 4x4.

I'm looking through the air shift thread for a baseline. I'll be able to get away much cheaper and simpler since I have no need for low range with 12:1 low gears in a non-crawler rig, so I'll just be shifting the front rail of the NP205 between N and H, and not need to stack actuators for a 3 position ram setup.

I'll use a single air toggle like these
http://www.clippard.com/catalog/Page 112.pdf

to actuate a 1/2" throw double acting ram like this
http://www.clippard.com/store/byo_cy...sku=UDR-12-1/2

I think I'll get two small regulators, and tee off the ram actuator lines to send 5-10PSI to the CAD.
http://www.clippard.com/catalog/Page 140.pdf

I'll rewire the 4x4 indicator light to run through the CAD switch and the tcase switch, so I'll know when both engage. With a setup like this I think it'll be good to know when everything is fully engaged and I can safely apply power. I need to replace the CAD switch harness anyway since a shredding serpentine belt ripped it apart when my AC compressor seized.


I'll replace the bushings and reuse the stock mount setup on the case, I'll just need to run two cross bars on the frame to hang the two mounts from.

I can go about 65" long on a one piece 4" 1410 driveshaft according to this RPM calculator based on my tire size, gears, and 80mph top speed.
http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?hvtss~decrits~warn1

Hopefully my fuel tank lets me get that short on the rear section, I think I'll be alright but I haven't measured yet. Once I get the rough case location and angle set, I'll be able to look at case clocking and front driveshaft placement. I'd love to go single piece, but we'll see. If I can get the rear to 65" the front will be about the same. The lowest I'm willing to go on that, critical RPM wise, is probably 60mph. Using 2.5" 1350, that gets me about 60mph, and that's fine by me for the front.

Aside from that it just needs 1410 yokes for input and rear output, and a couple fresh seals.



chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #60 • Sep 1, 2010i have a video on face book of shifting my truck. i used to start in 4th but due to the touchiness of the clutch i now start out in 3rd. it's nice having lower gears for hills and offroad though. i use granny low quite often though not on the road. personally i enjoy having around a 98:1 crawl ratio because it allows for tight maneuvering
 

Mr. Mindless

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#63 • Sep 7, 2010I had a better brainwave on this over the weekend:

instead of teeing off and running regulated low pressure to one side or the other, I'll tee off one side to an air actuated spool valve and switch the vacuum as stock does, in parallel with the double acting ram.

One MPA-3p pilot actuator
http://www.clippard.com/store/displa...asp?sku=MPA-3p

And an MJV-4 4-way spring return valve. http://www.clippard.com/store/displa....asp?sku=MJV-4

I'll connect the vacuum to the inlet on the MJV-4, and outlets to each of the CAD ports, and both exhausts to the stock exhaust line.

then I'll supply pressure to it to switch vacuum to lock the CAD, and the spring return will have vacuum supplied to the disconnected side.

more better.

-------

Also got some news from the guy who bought my NV4500.... Apparently I was even more up against its limits than I thought: not only did I break three teeth of 5th, but my input shaft was on the verge of breaking. It wasn't something you could see by eye, but he was having issues with his single disc clutch disengaging, and when checked with a straight edge found this:

58456_588129107428_3703946_33917680_3089691_n.jpg


47296_588313702498_3703946_33923418_2479919_n.jpg



His trans guy said the input shaft p/n shows it was from a reputable company, not some cheap crap part... I guess I'm doubly glad to have a 1.75" input now instead of a 1.25"! That shaft would not have lived much longer if reinstalled, I'm certain.

I'm not even putting down that much power, still stock injectors and stock turbo an a quarter million mile 12v with 4x GSK, adjusted star wheel, and ground fuel plate.... I should only be around 300hp... weird.




#64 • Sep 7, 2010Oh, I also got everything sealed up over the weekend with a full filler panel and real shift boot. No more smells, and much quieter than the towel. I think when I'm not split over it's actually quieter than stock, and it's totally tolerable when split out.

I also had my first tow - very short, and very light, (about 7 miles with a single TJ on the trailer) but enough confirmation that L-R is fantastic and perfect for backing, and that the close gears are just to die for...



NitroRClover

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1,489 Posts #65 • Sep 7, 2010
Mr. Mindless said:
Can you get that with an SAE #3 bell instead of the #2? That would make the floor mods much less invasive, #3 is probably roughly the same size clutch housing as the stock bell needs. Most of the Alisons laying around at Casey's were SAE#3....




that could probably be arranged. I've split through all the top end, but I've yet to use L or 2. The L-1-2-3 might take a little practice, or a big load.​

Not sure about the #3 bell, it came with a #2. I bought the trans with everything that bolted to the engine to keep it simple - it was bolted to a 5.9 so I won't have to do any piecing together.



chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #66 • Sep 7, 2010i know you can get an sae#3 flywheel housing for the engine side easy but the allison automatic is going to be your only choice. the rt 9513 only comes with sae#1 and #2 clutch housing. and the sae#2 clutch housing is kinda tight. i had to chisel some of the aluminum off in order to have enough room to get a socket on some the nuts. also theres 2 bolts that i didn't notice in there and i couldnt figure out why i was losing so much oil. i ended up having to pull the tranny back out to discover the problem. that was not fun at all






Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #67 • Sep 8, 2010
chrisevans2645 said:
the sae#2 clutch housing is kinda tight. i had to chisel some of the aluminum off in order to have enough room to get a socket on some the nuts.​

huh? tight where/against what? The only clearance issue I have is the starter. I'd say try to find a driver side starter setup if you're going this route.










chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #68 • Sep 9, 2010inside. the tranny has 6 studs and 4 bolts(iirc) or something like that to hold the clutch housing on and in order to get the nuts on the studs i had to clearance the clutch housing then clearance it a little more o fit a socket. maybe i got one that was just cast a little funky or something. i never did bother taking pics of that but it wasnt a huge deal.











jeepgif

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640 Posts #69 • Sep 16, 2010wow
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
thats a lot of tranny !! cant wait to see it.








Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #70 • Jan 23, 2011Just a quick update on this. I didn't get to the transfer case yet, but when I R&R'd the trans as a part of my motor swap (12v water jacket cracked, emptied cooling into oil pan. found cheap low mile 24v and swapped my p-pump on), I added a layer of thick rubber under the carpet and it's much quieter! I still need to do a filler piece around the shift boot but everything is much quieter. To the point that my breezy/rattly door seal and hinge are now annoying me into getting a bushing kit!
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7


Still a pleasure to drive.






montecarlo31

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10,638 Posts #71 • Jan 23, 2011
Mr. Mindless said:
Just a quick update on this. I didn't get to the transfer case yet, but when I R&R'd the trans as a part of my motor swap (12v water jacket cracked, emptied cooling into oil pan. found cheap low mile 24v and swapped my p-pump on), I added a layer of thick rubber under the carpet and it's much quieter! I still need to do a filler piece around the shift boot but everything is much quieter. To the point that my breezy/rattly door seal and hinge are now annoying me into getting a bushing kit!
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7


Still a pleasure to drive.​

Get the transfer case in and hit the mud...I bet that thing will sling some mud and tow a trailer.

Any change in fuel economy?



Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #72 • Jan 23, 2011....mumble mumble fucking hate mud....


if by sling mud you mean find the bottom, sure. weighs 8500# now with a full tank and toolbox.


economy is definitely up. it was down for 2 months with the motor swap, I think that's already looking to be a bigger difference than the trans. I have a console full of fuel receipts that need to be entered in my spreadsheet, maybe some trend will show up but there was relatively little time with the 12v/13sp combo, she broke down 10/26 give or take a couple days, that's only 2 months.




chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #73 • Jan 23, 2011i think that the dual countershafts and dual overdrives might suck down fuel economy because the engine has to spin all those gears. i don't bother keeping track of my fuel mileage but seat of the pants feel tells me that 7th direct (1:1) is where the engine is happiest power wise.
as far as mud you had better get going and be in the right gear before you hit it because without syncros you won't be able to shift once you're in the mud/sand/snowF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winch






Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #74 • Jan 23, 2011What I love most is just being able to always be in the right gear. I can keep it around 1700-1900 whether I'm doing 20, 40, 45, 60.... and I don't get out of that torque happy range until about 70mph. I was thinking about that yesterday - how I used to have to spin the thing at 2500rpm to do 70+. I don't miss that.

I'm sure between the extra rotating mass, the extra 500#, and the thicker gear oil it eats a lot of it. Still my favorite mod to the tow rig. Just have to get that tcase in it...






chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #75 • Jan 23, 2011
Mr. Mindless said:
What I love most is just being able to always be in the right gear. I can keep it around 1700-1900 whether I'm doing 20, 40, 45, 60.... and I don't get out of that torque happy range until about 70mph. I was thinking about that yesterday - how I used to have to spin the thing at 2500rpm to do 70+. I don't miss that.

I'm sure between the extra rotating mass, the extra 500#, and the thicker gear oil it eats a lot of it. Still my favorite mod to the tow rig. Just have to get that tcase in it...​

same here. i usually try to keep it around 1500rpm but that's probably a little too low. i think i'm around 19-2000rpm at 75:smokin:
i can't stand going that fast without ear plugs though











Mr. Mindless

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Joined Nov 9, 2003
5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #76 • Jan 23, 2011maybe you should consider adding some polish to your install...

mine's not cell phone conversation quiet just yet but it's close.
 

Mr. Mindless

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chrisevans2645

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566 Posts #77 Jan 24, 2011
Mr. Mindless said:
maybe you should consider adding some polish to your install...

mine's not cell phone conversation quiet just yet but it's close.​
i'm working on it but i just snapped an axle and have other stuff going on. plus it sucks being brokeF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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LikeLlurchseesu

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1,150 Posts #78 Jul 26, 2011If you don't mind me asking, what was the initial price of the 13 speed? Just so we can get idea of what to spend on one.SaveShare
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LikeCchrisevans2645

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566 Posts #79 Jul 26, 2011i got mine for about $950 plus shipping from goodies truck parts. it wasn't rebuilt but they had inspected it and replaced external parts like hoses and the regulator. i was lucky to find one so cheap and shipping was reasonable too. they also had a flywheel housing for $200ish and i found a #2 clutch housing on ebay though i don't remember how much. also it shipped without the output yoke/flange or the shifterF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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Like Mr. Mindless

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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #80 Jul 26, 2011My RTOO9513 was a full rebulid with warranty, complete swap all bought at once set me back $3750. Clutch, trans, SAE clutch housing, flywheel, ujoint, starter, some other odds and ends...

Couldn't find exactly what I was looking for on Craigslist since I was set on the double OD. If I'd been able to settle for a RTO there were a half dozen in reasonable distance with low miles around a grand to 1500. Then I'd still have had to scrounge the clutch housing, flywheel, etc.


Insulating the shifter stalk made a huge difference. Still need to do another nice rubber mat on the floor and maybe double boot the shifter and it will be nearly stock quiet. Nearly.
 

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Diesel_Dirk

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325 Posts #81 • Jul 27, 2011
chrisevans2645 said:
as far as mud you had better get going and be in the right gear before you hit it because without syncros you won't be able to shift once you're in the mud/sand/snow​
Not without practice anyway...
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248 Posts #82 • Jul 27, 2011The large fuller trans should have 50wt oil in them, If you are running 80-90 it might help with heat and drag. People also need to remember the in the 1970s the big rigs pulling 80,000lbs were only using engines that made only 900 or so lbft of tourqe. that is were the 950 lbft trans were used. We have a gear shop in Wa state that my Dad started in 1982 and I remember building lots of these. Then things changed to the 12513 them 14613 and up, The newwer ones I see now are 18918 and even a few 22918.

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2,748 Posts #83 • Feb 8, 2012great thread. i just made a deal on a 9513 that couldnt be refused, but i dont think i wanna hack the dodge apart.

unloaded local driving.. you guys taking off in 3rd and 4th and then hitting every gear, skipping every other, splitting every other, etc? whats a typical 0 to 45mph look like?

at 70-75 mph, is 13th a coasting gear or will the truck still pull a long grade with the .62 overdrive? (i have 3.54s and 235/85R16 on my dually)God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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566 Posts #84 • Feb 8, 2012in my case i used to start out in 4th but now that i have a pneumatic setup to actuate the clutch i start in 3rd. sometimes i skip 4th, in fact sometimes it's easier to skip 4th. i rarely ever use 5th over, and if i'm in a hurry i sometimes skip 6th over. as for climbing in 8th over situation dictates. at 75mph it does good but at 65 i usually downshift to keep i egt's in check, depending on the hill. for example i can climb union pass from bullhead to kingman in 8th direct at 55mph. my engine is a stock 1st gen with the timing bumped up and the afc rotated but unground. no fuel screw adjustments.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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1,565 Posts #85 • Feb 8, 2012"pneumatic setup to actuate the clutch" - what's that?SaveShare
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566 Posts #86 • Feb 8, 2012i couldn't figure out any other way to do it so i used a treadle valve for air brakes and a pneumatic ram to push on the arm coming off the clutch fork. it's nice in that you can push the clutch pedal down with your pinky, it sucks in that there is no feel to it at all.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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1,131 Posts #87 • Feb 8, 2012Just curious if the treadle allows you to feather the clutch the way you would with a manual setup ? Does it have enough "feel" to do that ?I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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1,196 Posts #88 • Feb 9, 2012
me2 said:
Just curious if the treadle allows you to feather the clutch the way you would with a manual setup ? Does it have enough "feel" to do that ?​
Nah, there's no way to get any feel out of that set up. But if it works it work (insert thumbs up). Sounds pretty cool.. Especially when ya start getting older :flipoff2:
chrisevans2645 said:
it's nice in that you can push the clutch pedal down with your pinky, it sucks in that there is no feel to it at all.​
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566 Posts #89 • Feb 9, 2012i can feather it a little but i have to do it visually. i have a rod coming off the crossbar and it sticks up through the floor. the main reason for that was as a limp home measure if the treadle valve or something went out but i use it as a visual indication of where the clutch is in addition to the sound of the engine.
30810_386499151523_660066523_4065057_5262877_n.jpg
 

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Machinos

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1,565 Posts #90 • Feb 9, 2012Haha, that rules.SaveShare
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2,748 Posts #91 • Feb 9, 2012so when you step on the clutch, are you applying air to a cylinder or releasing air from the cylinder? im not familiar with treadle valves.. but wonder if its possible to use a restrictor, adjustable muffler or some other form of fill/bleed orifice to give an adjustable speed to the cylinder motion. this way you dont get feedback but atleast a timed delay.

..lift the pedal and its eases into engagement over a 3 second span sort of thing.

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566 Posts #92 • Feb 9, 2012it applies pressure. i tried using a needle valve to do that but it didn't work well. now i have a worn out shock absorber on there that has minimal effect on release but helps slow it down a little on engagement. keeps me from stalling it at least.
182783_493674961523_660066523_6063123_3603065_n.jpg


25898_365218041523_660066523_3626039_6387909_n.jpg


25898_365218061523_660066523_3626040_3126926_n.jpg
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113 Posts #93 • Feb 10, 2012The foot treadle is a pretty good idea. I bet an air throttle valve would give you alot more control. We have a couple trucks at work that use air for the auxillary throttle( crane trucks). They seem to be very easy to deal with.87 Toyota, 4.3, TH350, Dana 300(4 to 1), 60/70 welded, linked and coiled, 6.17's, 44" TSL's.SaveShare
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4,040 Posts #94 • Feb 10, 2012if you used an air cylinder of some type to actuate the clutch why would you need a pedal at all?

couldnt you just have a switch on the gear lever or maybe something like an old high beam switch on the floor to hit with your left foot? Hit the switch the clutch disengages (under pressure) hit it again and the pressure releases slowly and engages the clutch...

seems pretty damn cool to me.SaveShare
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1,619 Posts #95 • Feb 10, 2012Are there any load reactive hydraulic valves? My buggies steering is full hydro, and has some feedback feel. Maybe that would be a way to get some feel out of the system?SaveShare
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566 Posts #96 • Feb 12, 2012thanks for the suggestions, i didn't mean to steal the thread though. that air vale sounds interesting, i'll look into that. i was looking at hydraulic before i went air but it was a bit much. i've actually broken several clutch brakes before i regulated the air pressure down. as far as a switch i suppose you could use a trolley valve or something but a on/off switch would give you no control or feel. with the treadle valve you can control the clutch position though not particularly smoothly or accurately. for example if i can see my clutch lever i can let off the pedal slowly while counting to 5 or so.F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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1,150 Posts #97 • Feb 12, 2012Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. While I'm not big on mechanical clutches it just seems like it would have been so much simpler to go that route.

How much would it have been to go with a normal hydro setup? Or are hydraulic big clutch parts just too pricey still?SaveShare
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1,131 Posts #98 • Feb 12, 2012
chrisevans2645 said:​

25898_365218061523_660066523_3626040_3126926_n.jpg
What's up with the red bottle ?

Could you tell us again what clutch you are using and why you can't use a regular hydraulic linkage ?

I'm not criticizing, I'm trying to learn.I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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566 Posts #99 • Feb 12, 2012 (Edited)i'm using a pull type 14" dual disk ceramic clutch. i tried figuring out how to go hydraulic but couldn't get enough travel. i know that there are trucks that use them but the only style i've found mounts under the clutch housing which would reduce ground clearance

edit: the red bottle is my steering reservoirF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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11,780 Posts #100 • Feb 12, 2012 (Edited)Get a couple little 6" travel .5-1" bore hydraulic rams and work out a hydraulic loop between them. Same sorta thing, all the travel you could want, and good pedal feel so long as you bleed the system well enough.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
If you can deal with the excess length.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...name=hydraulic
If you can figure out levers and such to increase the travel.
 

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566 Posts #101 • Feb 12, 2012well that would work but i would need a master cylinder capable of pushing enough fluid. maybe if i used a brake master cylinder with both ports going to the slave?F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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11,780 Posts #102 • Feb 12, 2012
chrisevans2645 said:
well that would work but i would need a master cylinder capable of pushing enough fluid. maybe if i used a brake master cylinder with both ports going to the slave?​
Use one of the same cylinders. You wouldn't have a reservoir, but you could just make it a closed system with a T at the highest point, put a ball valve on one leg of it and a reservoir behind that.SaveShare
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566 Posts #103 • Feb 12, 2012i guess i could make that work, just have to mount it real close to the pedal so i would have enough stroke. damn, i wish i had all these ideas a couple years ago, i guess maybe i should have made a build thread of my own...F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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1,619 Posts #104 • Feb 13, 2012Anyone ever use a hydroboost brake master assembly to operate a big clutch? My wifes chief complaint about my old power stroke was the clutch effort. With thoughts of stepping up to a big boy tranny she is quite fearful that she won't be able to push it in.
I've never driven a manual transmission big truck. What is the clutch effort like?SaveShare
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29,929 Posts #105 • Feb 13, 2012The clutch effort on my uhaul with a big spicer is slightly worse than your average pickup truck, but it's also fully mechanical.

I think with properly setup master/slave ratios you could make it not any worse than a pickup truck, maybe betterl, without the use of a booster.Electricity is really just organized lightning.SaveShare
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1,150 Posts #106 • Feb 13, 2012All the big mechanical clutch trucks I've driven had a ton of throw to have enough leverage to push on. None were hard to push down but I hated how much high up off of the floor they were. Although the clutch was more or less identical to driving a chevy with a SM465 or something similar. By comparison, the hydro clutch prostar I drove, I didn't even have to raise my foot off of the floor to push it. It was like driving a car. No effort at all. Loved it.SaveShare
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37,102 Posts #107 • Feb 13, 2012
87manche said:
The clutch effort on my uhaul with a big spicer is slightly worse than your average pickup truck, but it's also fully mechanical.​
My new pull-type clutch is just a little easier than the old push-type clutch.


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2,085 Posts #108 • Feb 13, 2012
lurchseesu said:
All the big mechanical clutch trucks I've driven had a ton of throw to have enough leverage to push on. None were hard to push down but I hated how much high up off of the floor they were. Although the clutch was more or less identical to driving a chevy with a SM465 or something similar. By comparison, the hydro clutch prostar I drove, I didn't even have to raise my foot off of the floor to push it. It was like driving a car. No effort at all. Loved it.​
x2 that

the mech. clutch of my Pete "379" (10 speed, N14 Cummins) is actually very easy to push.... what needed a lot of "getting used to" was lifting your leg completely off the floor to "stump" down on the high clutch pedal.

if i know i`m going to do some slow speed driving (like turning around in the yard and backing into the garage) i usually arrest&lock the "float" on the seat and "bump up" the air(seat) to the upper stop.... imho that makes it a lot more comfortable to use the clutch ... you have also more "feel" this way (all the torque of the N14 sure makes the Pete jump like a jackass if your clutch engagement is careless
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
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good thing is you hardly ever use the clutch anymore (on a non-syncro trans) if you get used to "floating" the gears"Steels gonna be the death of me" ... GangstergrassSaveShare
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1,150 Posts #109 • Feb 13, 2012I like to drive with the seat bumped up most of the way anway (I'm 6'5"). But the W900 I drove had this massive visor on it so I couldn't see shit out of it unless I was towards the bottom. And that made for some bad foot cramps if I spent a lot of time backing that day or in traffic that day. But for normal driving, it definitely makes you want to float it more.
 

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566 Posts #110 • Feb 17, 2012all i can do is float gears. i'm definitely going to give this hydraulic setup some more thought though. even if i do stick with air though it's better than how i drove it for the first 6 months or so, clutching with my right foot directly on the arm because i had no trans tunnel and only 2/3 of a firewall:laughing: come to think of it my right leg is still stronger than my left...F-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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11,780 Posts #111 • Feb 18, 2012Maybe use a cable-shifter cable for it, get one with long travel and put it far enough out on levers so it has a bit less force on it.

Throwing more idears out there.SaveShare
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72 Posts #112 • Feb 20, 2012A few questions...can we get a video of you driving this thing? Also, what is your rear gear and up in 13th what's your speed at 1800-2000 RPM?SaveShare
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2,748 Posts #113 • Feb 20, 2012i bet he could rig something up with an Ebrake cable. 80s and 90s hondas had pretty short ones lengthwise.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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4,055 Posts #114 • Feb 21, 2012
87manche said:
The clutch effort on my uhaul with a big spicer is slightly worse than your average pickup truck, but it's also fully mechanical.​
As long as he doesn't step into ceramic clutch territory as the pressure to push that monster is more than the average but can take more of a beating. I had one in my Freightshaker and let me tell you...after a few months I had a pretty nice set of gams!Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #115 • Feb 21, 2012 (Edited)Sorry Chris but I've got to say that on/off air clutch setup is just hack.


Glad to see some traffic and interest in my thread while I've been off gone and busy! I made a mechanical linkage off the stock Dodge clutch, effort is very hefty since I was limited in where I could attach things and get the throw at the clutch arm that I needed, I also have uprated springs in my clutch.

I've never put a scale or load cell on it and I'm not sure how I would but I bet my pedal effort is every bit of 150#. I've got very strong legs so I don't mind it at all, but if I go into gear early at a stop light and have to sit there it gets a little annoying. Some sort of hydro setup with adequate throw would be much nicer but I didn't have time to engineer that while doing my 1 week build.

To answer some of the other questions, I'm doing between 70 and 75 in 8th-over at 2,000 with 4.10 gears and my 225/70r19.5s. Empty, I shift 4-5-6-7-8-8o. Loaded I usually start in 3rd except when very heavy on a steep grade. I rarely split while accelerating since the Cummins has plenty of power band, it's not like the Detroits these trannies were really meant for with the high narrow power band. When I love the splits is climbing steep grades when heavy where I have to downshift and I can take that half step I so often want. I also will use the over-split around town to stay right around 1500-1800 depending on load/traffic/etc.

I recently rolled over 290k on the truck so I've had the 9513 in there for about 22,000 miles now if I recall right and I don't regret it for a second. It's a little noisier but my '97 was no common rail to begin with. Someday I'll get a tcase in there and make it 4x4 again, I look forward to that.... Too many other projects going on though.Last Minute Motorsports
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2,687 Posts #116 • Feb 21, 2012I want to see video from inside. Goin through the gears like u normally drive, and going through all the gears. I assume you don't use the clutch pedal except to start out, right?Quote-486-ban fully automatic transmissions
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4,055 Posts #117 • Feb 21, 2012
Mr. Mindless said:
I rarely split while accelerating since the Cummins has plenty of power band, it's not like the Detroits these trannies were really meant for with the high narrow power band. When I love the splits is climbing steep grades when heavy where I have to downshift and I can take that half step I so often want.​
Does that bring back some memories! When you are pulling weight on hills those 13 speeds are worth their weight in gold. And the Uhaul crowd can certainly attest to being stuck in a gear that is too high or another is too low.

I'm so grateful you did this build. Whether I save enough or one drops into my lap, I will have one someday.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #118 • Feb 21, 2012I tried to take a shifting video today by throwing my phone up in the overhead. Didn't come out so hot, I need to brace the phone in there better so it stays put. I'll see if I can YouTube it for now 'till I bother to do better.Last Minute Motorsports
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #119 • Feb 21, 2012Here it is in all it's terribleness. Dropping sliding etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ynDMqKRDyMLast Minute Motorsports
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5,111 Posts Discussion Starter • #120 • Feb 21, 2012good run through at about 4:10, finally had a chance to watch this through.

yeah it's terrible.Last Minute Motorsports
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lurchseesu

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1,150 Posts #121 • Feb 21, 2012Kind of odd shifting. a lot of skipshifting. Around the 4:00-4:30 mark it looks like you went 3 to 5l to 6l to 8l than 7l and finally 7o.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #122 • Feb 22, 2012no skipping. it's an RTOO not an RTX-anything.

pattern is like this

R 1/5 4/8
L 2/6 3/7Last Minute Motorsports
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #123 • Feb 22, 2012thought I had this up here but I guess notAttachments

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1,150 Posts #124 • Feb 22, 2012 (Edited)I've never seen one with the 3/7 and the 4/8 swapped around like that.

The 13 speeds I've driven (RTLO's I'm guessing) were like this.
shift_pattern.jpg


I wouldn't think an RTOO would differ any from an RTO.
3785004226_16cd8647df_z.jpg


Odd.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #125 • Feb 22, 2012The Eaton literature I've read has the pattern you posted for the RTX series of transmissions. Interesting... Might be an age thing, I have no clue how old my RTOO is.Last Minute Motorsports
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1,150 Posts #126 • Feb 22, 2012Has that same 3 to 4th as a 3053a Spicer in a duece.

154_0509_five_09_z.jpg



Seems like a really unnatural motion to me. It's what I hated about 10 speeds. Going from a down gate back to another down gate.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #127 • Feb 22, 2012It took a week or two to get used to it. Surprisingly going back and forth between that and a standard 5 speed never confused me after that. I just got rid of that 5sp though, and my other DD is a slushbox now. I expect having the 13 as my only stick shift will screw me up after a while when I jump into another 5sp!

If you re-label that Spicer's 1 to L, it's an identical pattern...Last Minute Motorsports
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866 Posts #128 • Feb 22, 2012 (Edited)@ 4:20, (huh? :smokin
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
it starts to whine...sounds a lot like an SM420 I had in an old Fj40 once when in 4th, is that direct drive you shifted into?Nailed a retread to my feet..and prayed for better weather..SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #129 • Feb 22, 2012that's the wonderful whine of overdrive.Last Minute Motorsports
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koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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11,780 Posts #130 • Feb 22, 2012 (Edited)I could see that (the wierd shift pattern) being so they wouldn't have to dink around with the mainshaft config to get overdrive out of a trans designed without an overdrive top gear.

You have 1 and 2 which are underdrive gears, then 3 which is direct, then 4 which is over, whereas a direct or single-over trans would have 1-3 as underdrive and 4th as direct. Swap the 3rd gear tooth counts around to make it overdrive, and you don't have to mess with the direct dog clutch.
 

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566 Posts #131 • Feb 23, 2012 (Edited)i also run about 1900-2000 rpms at 75mph. so far i have probably about 40,000 miles on mine though i don't know for sure as it took awhile for me to get a speedometer and i've had several issues with the rear driveline that has forced me to use front wheel drive. i have driven it to texas and back without issue though.
edit: i am running a ceramic clutch which is may be adding to the clutch control issue. my truck was an automatic plus i'm not sure how well the stock components would hold up to the excessive stiffness if i were to use a stock clutch pedal assemblyF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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2,748 Posts #132 • Feb 23, 2012 (Edited)EDIT* I WAS WRONG!

i acquired an RTOO9513 from 1972 and its got the SAME SHIFT PATTERN as mr mindless. 8th is forward right corner, 7th is rearward right corner. sorry for the error.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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566 Posts #133 • Feb 24, 2012no, i have the eaton fuller manual for the rt9513 series and it shows the rt and rto with the up and down the street shift pattern and the rtoo with the around the block shift pattern. not sure why yours is differntF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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959 Posts #134 • Apr 19, 2012you guys with the big trans been able to get any mpg averages figured out yet?1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

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37,102 Posts #135 • Apr 19, 2012
bf said:
you guys with the big trans been able to get any mpg averages figured out yet?​
My UHaul/IDI went from 6.5 completely loaded to 7.7, going from a 5-speed with a straight-through 5th gear to a 7-speed with a 0.73 o/d.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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1,869 Posts #136 • Apr 19, 2012
bf said:
you guys with the big trans been able to get any mpg averages figured out yet?​
I have a RTO-6610 behind a 5.9 12v in my truck and so far I have gotten 16.24 and 18.95 mpgThe way that you wander is the way that you choose.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #137 • Apr 19, 2012I think the extra weight and rotating mass mostly made up for my RPM gains. I picked up noticeable milage (15%ish) going to Ford outers with unlocked lockouts.

Looking at my numbers, the first 23k I had the truck with the 5 speeds, I got 11.5mpg
In the 28k since the swap, if I take out the broken injection line tanks, I've gotten 11.8mpg. Probably have done more towing miles since the swap than before.

I haven't put data in the sheet in a while so I don't know how much of a difference my cam swap made, nor the overall average the lockouts made.

I also really exchanged high RPM engine noise for the whine of straight cut gears and overdrive split howl, so I only really improved durability...Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,150 Posts #138 • Apr 19, 2012That overdrive split howl is something I'm not used to. I've only driven normal .7X OD 13's and didn't remember any noise from them. Of course that was in a Kenworth W9 whose cab sat a couple feet above the trans and then had some pretty amazing sound deadening.

The noise kind of reminds me of a Mack I drove with a 7 speed (5 speed with double low). If you hit the range selector in anything but 1st or 2nd, it would make that same horrible high pitched whine.SaveShare
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959 Posts #139 • Apr 19, 2012mr mindless, are these numbers towing?1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #140 • Apr 19, 201275% towing I'd say. And half of the rest is "city"

It's not one of the magic 25mpg Cummins trucks to say the least. It's never broken 20 since I've owned it. Best tank ever is 19.9. I've gotten 12.5+ towing a few tanks lately though since the lockouts.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

SAS Dakota | R'audi Allroad | Big dumb hauler | 13 speed Ram
 

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1,150 Posts #141 • Apr 19, 2012Whereabouts do you usually gross? I'd be interested in what your whole setup is. For that matter, I think I've only seen a couple of pictures of the truck before.SaveShare
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959 Posts #142 • Apr 19, 2012ditto1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #143 • Apr 19, 201222-24 most of the time I'd guess. 36' low deck goose open center.

559857_756842249938_3703946_35266621_1520856850_n.jpg



529040_755365145068_3703946_35257226_1726088621_n.jpg



396827_711165795918_3703946_35076415_1559755426_n.jpg



561282_755665927298_3703946_35258847_791242675_n.jpg



228674_10150568689480691_556170690_18584740_6801435_n.jpg



24785_10150164130725691_556170690_12357371_2600281_n.jpg
Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #144 • Apr 19, 2012whats your impression of the 19.5s and what rubber you got on them?

were they a big change in road feel over the 16s? ive got the identical truckGod Bless AmericaSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #145 • Apr 19, 2012Good upgrade. The tall tread blocks wander a bit on brand new tires, that lasted about 2-3k.

Running traction recap drives on Khumo carcasses. 40k on them and at 3-40% now. I had Continental HDRs on the steers, one flat spotted and I had to swap it. The remaining one is about done. I'll probably put 2-4k more on it and swap it to the matching rib tire to what I put on the other side. Probably do a full set of 6 Treadright remold tires this fall. They're cheaper than I can get caps...Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,869 Posts #146 • Apr 20, 2012
Mr. Mindless said:​

396827_711165795918_3703946_35076415_1559755426_n.jpg
Whats the story with the flattie, I think I know that Jeep.The way that you wander is the way that you choose.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #147 • Apr 20, 2012It's possible... It was on its way from Rochester to the coast of CT for some work. It'll be coming back sometime this spring/summer.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,869 Posts #148 • Apr 20, 2012
Mr. Mindless said:
It's possible... It was on its way from Rochester to the coast of CT for some work. It'll be coming back sometime this spring/summer.​
Yeah, I'm about 30 miles south of Buffalo, don't forget one of those when ya see it around :laughing:The way that you wander is the way that you choose.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #149 • Apr 20, 2012I'll keep an eye out for your J Truck, didn't know you were that close. I was wondering where in NY "the other side of the hill" was, I was figuring Adirondacks.

I hadn't followed your Amerigo thing, just started reading that thread. For a while I really wanted one of those to drop on the front of my gooseneck, but I keep using the hell out of all it's deck space as you can see, so that's a lot less appealing than it was for a while. What you found in there reminds me of the trailer I used to have - and the house I replaced it with... Major reconstruction needed from water damage in both of them, most or all of it hidden from view.
 

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2,748 Posts #150 • Apr 20, 2012i just dragged an RTOO home this week and verified its salvageable last night. northeast roadranger owners group apparently. i think mines earmarked for an MDT tho. i cant justify adding clutch pedal and cutting the floor with only 2 door cab.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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4,055 Posts #151 • Apr 21, 2012
mike_belben said:
i just dragged an RTOO home this week and verified its salvageable last night. northeast roadranger owners group apparently. i think mines earmarked for an MDT tho. i cant justify adding clutch pedal and cutting the floor with only 2 door cab.​
Is that the one you PMd me about?Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #152 • Apr 22, 2012
mike_belben said:
northeast roadranger owners group​
orly?Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #153 • Apr 23, 2012
Bustin Loose said:
Is that the one you PMd me about?​
you mean the one you PMd me about trying to find out where i gets me deals? :flipoff2:

i see a ton of RRs doing my sidegig but almost always 8LL or a single .75 OD. this is the first double over (3 OD gears actually, right?) ive seen in person and i knew i was gonna do whatever it took to own it. $500, but i had to pay first, take the cab off a tractor and pull it myself. got lucky, 1.75" input and its all there. with #2 clutch housing. some rust inside from years with no oil, but all spins and slides as it should. got the driveshaft and PTO with it.

Mar2012041.jpg
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #154 • Apr 23, 2012tho OO indicates that top gear is overdrive, and the aux is overdrive. so it's two overdrives, but 7D is 1:1 so 7O, 8D and 8O are all overdrive.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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4,055 Posts #155 • Apr 23, 2012 (Edited)
mike_belben said:
you mean the one you PMd me about trying to find out where i gets me deals? :flipoff2:
I was asking about the Boston CL one for $1500 you sent me the link to.
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
:flipoff2:

I'd love to be around for a $500 one that's for sure, that's more in my budget after I start stealth camping in my truck.

Were you down the road at the bus crusher? That's where I got my Peter Pan bus driver seats from.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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2,748 Posts #156 • Apr 23, 2012
Bustin Loose said:
Were you down the road at the bus crusher?​

a lady never tells!

whos the bus crusher?God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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4,055 Posts #157 • Apr 23, 2012 (Edited)
mike_belben said:
a lady never tells!

whos the bus crusher?​
Wait, you're a gal? Sorry the name threw me off but damn awesome too.

I *think* I got the seats from Chets. They had a bunch of Peter Pan buses there and a few UHaul trucks. I also found a ton of stuff I could use at La Flammes but with the prices he's asking you'd think he stored his stuff in climate controlled buildings with concierge service.

I'd love to tag along on your side jobs after I move into my truck!Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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2,748 Posts #158 • Apr 23, 2012nah, im a dude. but 'a fella never tells' doesnt have the same ring to it.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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4,055 Posts #159 • Apr 24, 2012
mike_belben said:
nah, im a dude. but 'a fella never tells' doesnt have the same ring to it.​
Aww cmon! Hook a cheap gal up! It may help me get out if this area faster!
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959 Posts #160 • Apr 24, 2012had to tell someone who would understand how excited i am.

traded a dana 70 for an rtlo16913. it needs the syncros replaced in the auxilary unit, and it has the 2" input shaft. fortunately it comes with a clutch.

it will be going behind a 6bt out of a school bus with a ve pump, air compressor, and aftercooler. the engine will be backed by a np205 and placed in my 1994 f350 crewcab.

once i go through the engine, tranny and the tcase, i will post a build thread somewhere on here. super stoked!!Attachments
 

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1,150 Posts #161 • Apr 24, 2012Good deal. Normal RTLO's (and older RTO's) are .86 and .73 OD's right? Should at least match your avearage ZF5 or NV4500 in that regard and still get you some amazing (13-16%) splits in high range.SaveShare
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445 Posts #162 • Apr 24, 2012Sweet!

Picked up an RT6610 that I will be converting to a RTO6610 soon...SaveShare
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37,102 Posts #163 • Apr 24, 2012
bf said:
had to tell someone who would understand how excited i am.​
So I only have a Spicer 7-speed behind a 7.3L IDI.

I'm not only excited for you, I'm envious. Looking forward to your build.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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959 Posts #164 • Apr 24, 2012yes the aux. gears are .86 and .73. bonus it comes with a 9 speed with a chipped 3rd gear. the guy said i could get the synchros from it.

anyways hijack off.1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #165 • Apr 25, 2012Good hijacks, glad to see more MD/HD transmissions happening, it's good tech.

Id love to do it again with an RTO6610. Smaller case, quieter... The splits are cool but underutilized and unjustified on the low side of 50k gcw
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Link your build threads in here so I don't miss em!Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #166 • Apr 25, 2012
bf said:
it will be going behind a 6bt out of a school bus with a ve pump, air compressor, and aftercooler.​
was it a bluebird/thomas? what yr and what flywheel housing is on it? (if you dont know, whats the diameter across roughly)

ive been looking for an air ride 5.9 bluebird to put a truck body on for 2 yrs with no luck. everything i come by thats affordable ends up with dayton wheels and im holding out for 10lug. im starting to think more towards DT466 vs 6CT8.3 cuz the ford L series seem a lot more prevalent for cheap.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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959 Posts #167 • Apr 25, 2012it was a thomas flat nose. don't know what year for the bus and the serial plate on my motor is gone for some reason. the salvage yard thought it was a dt466 and useless so i got it for $600. :smokin:

the flywheel cover is an sae 3 with the starter on the passenger side. slightly smaller than the sae 2 on my trans. it originally came with an at545.1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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4,055 Posts #168 • Apr 25, 2012
mike_belben said:
ive been looking for an air ride 5.9 bluebird to put a truck body on for 2 yrs with no luck. everything i come by thats affordable ends up with dayton wheels and im holding out for 10lug. im starting to think more towards DT466 vs 6CT8.3 cuz the ford L series seem a lot more prevalent for cheap.​
Now looking for buses especially if they are schoolies I can definitely hook you up. But like you said, a lady never tells. :flipoff2::flipoff2:

Thank you Mr. Mindless. I really want to be flipping that air switch again.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #169 • Apr 26, 2012New wedge today. Still looking for an Infinity GN300 hydraulic 3 place, but this will do for now with some mods. Easier than putting a deck over the neck on my Kaufman like I was planning to until this morning when a friend sent me this.

He was only asking 2000. It's a 39' that has a fixed 1' extension on the front and was stretched 2' in back to 42. I'm going to redo the front extension to 3' and do 3' ramps in back. Maybe tip out but not sure the trailer has beef enough there or that I have the right materials laying around.

Wiring is all hack wire nut garbage. Has to be recent since it hasn't all fallen to dust yet. Brakes were wired all wrong, got him down to 1500 with missing ramps and brakes AFU.

Spent about 2 hours fixing brake wiring (red to red and black to black, right? Ha. Good thing they were all disconnected in the plug), tomorrow night is fabbing and the weekend is 1100 overloaded miles.

I expect to have no tires when I get home. 3 new tires on the trailer and the inboard side of the spare is a slick. Bet the axles are tweaked.

 

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1,150 Posts #170 • Apr 26, 2012Looks slightly ghettoish, but regardless, that's a helluva lot of trailer for the money.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #171 • Apr 26, 2012Definitely a little ghetto hack… It's gonna need a lot of attention to be ready for resale.

Might be worthy of a rehab thread here. I usually take pics as I go anyway.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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959 Posts #172 • Apr 26, 2012nice find!1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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2,748 Posts #173 • Apr 26, 2012are you hauling privately or for a dealer or something?

truck have airbag assist or just leafs?God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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37,102 Posts #174 • Apr 26, 2012Looks like a "goin' to KOH" trailer to me!!96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #175 • Apr 27, 2012Private work...

When it comes to wheeling rigs I'm not sure 42' of deck is much more useful than 36! It's getting some flip outs tonight for a haul this weekend though, should be able to extend to 47' of deck when I'm done. We'll see how she does...
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
Theeeen see if she's ready for a cross-country trip.

Stock leafs in the dumpbus, probably be riding dirty with the wedge. Never have noticeable squat with my lowboy, but this can give me a LOT more pin weight. Might be bag time.


One of the trailers I really want just popped up today, I've been searching. Gotta get my two spruced up, looking good and ready for sale.
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsde...?OHID=3567303&

Looking at flatbeds/hauler beds too, started another thread here that's gotten little traction. Might throw some links over there and see if anybody has thoughts.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,131 Posts #176 • Apr 27, 2012 (Edited)
bf said:
had to tell someone who would understand how excited i am.

traded a dana 70 for an rtlo16913. it needs the syncros replaced in the auxilary unit, and it has the 2" input shaft. fortunately it comes with a clutch.

it will be going behind a 6bt out of a school bus with a ve pump, air compressor, and aftercooler. the engine will be backed by a np205 and placed in my 1994 f350 crewcab.!​
This site needs a special forum for pickup trucks with MDT/HDT drivetains. And/or therapy or a support group for their creators.

Funny nobody has stepped up to an ISC (8.3) for the engine yet. Once you go with a reasonably sized MDT/HDT transmission, there isn't much holding you back from doing that other than frame torque strength, front suspension capacity, firewall clearance and...

At one time I was planning to drop an ISL into an F450.

Hmmm...I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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959 Posts #177 • Apr 27, 2012go away me2. this is big boy talk. you wouldn't understand, and people would accuse you of spamming again.:flipoff2:
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
:shaking:1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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11,780 Posts #178 • Apr 27, 2012
me2 said:
Funny nobody has stepped up to an ISC (8.3) for the engine yet. Once you go with a reasonably sized MDT/HDT transmission, there isn't much holding you back from doing that other than frame torque strength, front suspension capacity, firewall clearance and...​
C series cummins? Looking at the one I've been working on in tech school you'd need 2wd with IFS for oil pan clearance, some body lift so the pan isn't dragging on the ground, and a huge doghouse if you want anything resembling a radiator under the hood.

At that point I think you're better off hotrodding a B series. Build it ultra heavy duty like a tractor puller motor, then cut the fuel/boost back to more reasonable levels for longevity.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #179 • Apr 28, 2012There's a third gen Ram east of me somewhere in NY with an 8.3. Think I ran across him on CumminsForum when researching my swap.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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11,780 Posts #180 • Apr 28, 2012Link? I've seen the half done DT466 conversions (and the completed tractor puller ones), but no C series'.
 

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Discussion Starter • #181 • May 3, 2012It's this guy's.

http://www.youtube.com/user/fastbygasLast Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,131 Posts #182 • May 3, 2012 (Edited)I had a link to a guy with an ISL in an F450. He had to machine a special valve cover to make it fit. I think the pan was stock. That was 3 computer upgrades ago.

Edit: here they are. http://rides.webshots.com/album/576562583wfIqov
At that point I think you're better off hotrodding a B series. Build it ultra heavy duty like a tractor puller motor, then cut the fuel/boost back to more reasonable levels for longevity.​
Gee, why didn't I think of that.I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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1,131 Posts #183 • May 3, 2012
bf said:
go away me2. this is big boy talk.​
An RTOO behind a Cummins B is "big boy talk" ? Who the hell are you kidding !

As far as I can tell, he's stuffing MDT components into a pickup truck. THAT is my domain !I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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959 Posts #184 • May 4, 2012since when did a ve pump cummins out of a first gen dodge start getting called an 8.9l ISL?

so what mdt trans did you put in your truck so you didn't have anymore trans failures? did you decide to teach your wife how to drive a medium duty trans? please contribute!

the reason i referenced this thread being big boy talk is because so far it has been a mature conversation with relative and pertinent information on how to do what mr mindless did. you have a tendency to come into a thread spout off about something off topic, that is usually incorrect, or ignorant of the threads purpose, and then argue and bicker about it with the original poster, and any body else that supports the op's view in a childish fashion, until there are pages of useless garbage clogging up a great thread.

so yes this is a big boy conversation, i don't expect you to understand. i'm pretty sure i probably just wasted my time explaining that too you, but i am open to surprises. please feel free to come in and say, "oh that makes sense, i must have overlooked that it was a ve pump motor in a superduty. sorry about the mix up."1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #185 • May 4, 2012What makes you think that it's a VE B5.9 and not an ISL? The Webshots gallery calls it an ISL Common Rail and it sure looks bigger than a 5.9 to my eye.

How about YOU quit the bickering and shitting up my thread, bf. me2 hasn't said anything worthy of your ranting in here so let's carry on with the mature conversation.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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959 Posts #186 • May 4, 2012wow! my apologies. time for me to eat some untasty crow.

when i clicked on the link this morning i must have hit something else and ended up some where else. the link had 9 pages of a guy putting a ve pump cummins out of a 1st gen into a crew cab f450 just like the one me2 posted.

me2 - i apologize for being a douche. i'd blame it on the drinking but i don't drink.

mr mindless - i apologize for needlessly bickering and making a mess of the thread. if you want me to i can delete these posts to clean it up.1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

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4,055 Posts #187 • May 4, 2012 (Edited)
me2 said:
And/or therapy or a support group for their creators.​
Mr. Mindless, I believe it was the above comment that may have set bf off and I was happy to see him call metroll out on it. Your thread is considered sacred ground to some of us and me personally, I didn't want to see it violated.

**Damn, oh well. Was typing this out while bf was posting.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #188 • May 4, 2012haha you guys crack me up. Thanks for redeeming yourselves.
I am my own support group. And I DO drink :flipoff2: :beer:

Now go find more fun stuff to cross post in here. Like maybe where that Cumminsdude actually does his writeups, there are some really interesting pics and albums in his webshots but I didn't find where he's done any build threads and the pics don't seem to have any comments on them.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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959 Posts #189 • May 4, 2012in trying to redeem myself....


i found this gem. it's an excell spread sheet with just about every transmission on it, with the associated gear ratios.


crap, anybody know how to link an excell spreadsheet?
 

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4,055 Posts #190 May 4, 2012
bf said:
in trying to redeem myself....


i found this gem. it's an excell spread sheet with just about every transmission on it, with the associated gear ratios.


crap, anybody know how to link an excell spreadsheet?​
Lurch knows how! He's been posting them in my thread and others. He said he lost something like that or the link was bad. Here...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=577Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #191 May 4, 2012 (Edited)If it's the one I know of, link it from Eaton's site
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7


EDIT: of course now that I said that, I can't find my copy of it
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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4,175 Posts #192 May 4, 2012I really like this link. No gear ratios, but a good refresher for the stuff your forgot..! (nomenclature, spec'd oils, etc)

http://www.zafr.com/trucktcom/transmissions.htm.SaveShare
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37,102 Posts #193 • May 4, 2012I had the Excel file, but can't find the USB drive I saved it to!
I know what you're talking about, though.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #194 • May 4, 2012Hoping mine is on the home computer...

A buddy of mine with a nearly identical truck is shopping/ searching for parts now. He went through the same progression I did with 5th vacating, and then 5th making BAD noises. He hasn't torn it down again yet. I'm trying to talk him into an RTO6610, he was just talking about screwing the OD and mating his freshly rebuilt GearVendors OD to whatever direct drive trans he finds. If he can manage that, it would certainly open up a lot of other trans options. Then swap in 3.55 gears and put top gear back where it belongs RPM wise.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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29,929 Posts #195 • May 4, 2012I've heard nothing but bad about the gearvenders units in something that tows. I guess the design just isn't conducive to heavy loads or a lot of torque.

I was half heartedly searching for something like that to fix my 55 MPH top speed, and was told pretty universally by ayone that had owned one that even with my 180HP stock NA IDI, I would kill it with 17K lbs GVW. So old school brownie box or trans swap it was looking like until I found a third member.Electricity is really just organized lightning.SaveShare
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37,102 Posts #196 • May 4, 2012
87manche said:
I was half heartedly searching for something like that to fix my 55 MPH top speed, and was told pretty universally by ayone that had owned one that even with my 180HP stock NA IDI, I would kill it with 17K lbs GVW. So old school brownie box or trans swap it was looking like until I found a third member.​
$600 MDT trans trumped $2,000 GV o/d for me!!

Same way swapping out the auto in my 4Runner was cheaper with a 5spd/duals/gears than adaptor/gears alone for the auto t-case.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #197 • May 4, 2012He's had his out twice now... thought they were supposed to be rated for something like 26k. He tows ALL the time though.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #198 • May 4, 2012http://www.truckplace.com/parts/tran...on/eaton.shtmlGod Bless AmericaSaveShare
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959 Posts #199 • May 4, 2012found it

http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups.../ct_070803.pdf1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

http://outdoorexplorationgear.com/SaveShare
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29,929 Posts #200 • May 4, 2012
Mr. Mindless said:
He's had his out twice now... thought they were supposed to be rated for something like 26k. He tows ALL the time though.​
it was something about going down a hill with the gear vendors engaged with weight behind it would kill the clutch. and since I was so deep in the gears there wasn't really a way for me to turn it off to go downhill.

tons of info on those things over on oilburners, which is where I found most of it.Electricity is really just organized lightning.
 

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1,150 Posts #201 • May 4, 2012 So..Many...Trans...Missions...

Really digging that link. I had similar pdf bookmarked on the Eaton site but delt with nothing but current trans and it seems they've done some reshuffling of the site and now I can't find it.SaveShare
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959 Posts #202 • May 4, 2012i have an excel spread sheet version of that that is a lot easier to negotiate if anybody wants me to email it to them.1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...ons-build.html

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255 Posts #203 • Jun 29, 2012 (Edited)flywheel

Really like you build:smokin: got a question for you, do you have a part number for the flywheel?


thanks
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #204 • Jun 29, 2012Nope, I've really got no part numbers for anything. All boneyard sourced so stock applications are pretty unknown too. That made it a little tough to find the right ring gear for the flywheel when I stripped it....

I may be able to dig up that flywheel ring gear p/n but that's the closest I could get. It's just a 14" flywheel for a B series Cummins...


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1,131 Posts #205 • Jun 29, 2012 (Edited)
Mr. Mindless said:
Nope, I've really got no part numbers for anything. All boneyard sourced so stock applications are pretty unknown too. That made it a little tough to find the right ring gear for the flywheel when I stripped it....

I may be able to dig up that flywheel ring gear p/n but that's the closest I could get. It's just a 14" flywheel for a B series Cummins...​
Grab the Engine Serial Number (ESN) and get someone to look it up in Cummins Quickserve. All the info is usually in there, including the bellhousing part number, starter specs, flywheel, etc.
It's just a 14" flywheel for a B series Cummins...​
If you spent time in Quickserve, you'd know there are 43 variants, including multiple variants in the same application/OEM as things change. Its not as simple as a "14 inch flywheel for a B series Cummins".I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #206 • Jun 30, 2012I've got three ESNs to play with. None have anything to do with my transmission, sadly, but thanks for playing.

My freebie quickserve account doesn't get me much. Not sure I could have come up with the count of flywheels, and I know I couldn't give a p/n for any of them.




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255 Posts #207 • Jun 30, 2012Okay, thanks for the info.

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959 Posts #208 • Jun 30, 2012i have a part number at home for a 14" flywheel. (wrote in permanent marker on my 13 speed so i wouldn't forget.) i will post that here tonight or tomorrow morning.

currently making sure the internet is still functioning at work:flipoff2:1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

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566 Posts #209 • Jul 1, 2012i used this as a guide when i was building mine. if i did it again i would have the flywheel housing modified for a 2nd starter and keep the 28mt as a backup. it's been nothing but trouble. at the very least i would drill and tap the flywheel housing for a 1/2" set screw to support the nose cone.
http://www.sanco-bg.com/NV5600_Conve...parts_list.htmF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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255 Posts #210 • Jul 2, 2012which one did you end up going with?

thanks
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1,131 Posts #211 • Jul 2, 2012
Mr. Mindless said:
I've got three ESNs to play with. None have anything to do with my transmission, sadly, but thanks for playing.​
Other things to try.

- Get the casting number from the bellhousing you want to use and search QS for part numbers around it. Cummins uses different numbers for castings than for parts, but sometimes the part number is close to the casting number.

- Find a truck with a similar engine/bellhousing/transmission setup and get the ESN from it. I've gone so far as to find one online and then ask the seller if he'll get it for me. I usually tell him upfront what I'm up to and lots of times they will help, because its so simple to do.

- Search QS on the part numbers given on the page by the guy replacing his NV5600. That should show you what parts were used in various engine/starter/flywheel/bellhousing combinations. From that information, you should be able to figure out what you need.I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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1,131 Posts #212 • Jul 2, 2012
chrisevans2645 said:
if i did it again i would have the flywheel housing modified for a 2nd starter and keep the 28mt as a backup. it's been nothing but trouble. at the very least i would drill and tap the flywheel housing for a 1/2" set screw to support the nose cone.​
????

Please explain that ! Why are you having starter issues with a 6BT ?I'm here for the tech, not the twits.SaveShare
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566 Posts #213 • Jul 2, 2012i don't remember what flywheel i used, i might have just gotten lucky. as far as the starter the 28mt is just a piece of shit. local truck place had 4 or 5 cores with busted nose cones. i've broke one nose cone and had many more problems with it. for awhile i had to beat the hell out of it 4 times out of 5 to get it to turn over, replaced it with a genuine delco remy that also didn't work right. eventually i got it problem free for about 9 months and now it's acting up again.

if i could figure out how i'd like to have a coffman starter as a backupF-350 cclb dually, 6bta, rtoo9513, divorced twin stick np205, arb rear locker, KMA front bumper, warn m15000 hydraulic winchSaveShare
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959 Posts #214 • Jul 2, 2012here is the part number i had written down at home,

pn3908574 for a 14" flywheel.1994 Explorer build. super-duty on tons, currently in surgery.

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190 Posts #215 • Jul 3, 2012http://www.mean-green.com/STARTERS.html

or

http://www.tdi-turbotwin.com/t20.php (if you have on board air)SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #216 • Jul 4, 2012Gonna see if I can get it to run a little cooler. I'm tired of having a foot heater that I can't turn off in the summer
a68958b1-dbcc-8901.jpg


I'll scrounge up a cooler if this doesn't help enough.


It's got this in it now,
a68958b1-dbac-dbff.jpg


runs at 230-240 on a hot day doing 70+ with the wedge loaded.




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11,780 Posts #217 • Jul 4, 2012You've got the RTOO and 4x4, so a gear swap to get your cruising gear to be direct is out, right?

All that heat is friction, and therefore costing you milage.SaveShare
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2,748 Posts #218 • Jul 4, 2012a cooler is definitely easier than that.

i got the factory service manual if you need any info from it mike. btw, i just coincidentally heard a story about you drivin your dakota all the way out to coy hill and back on a blown brake line or something to that effect.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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1,565 Posts #219 • Jul 5, 2012What temp do they run at in a heavy truck application? That seems awfully high for something that's working at like 1/10th its rated weight capacity. Maybe it's because it's not getting any airflow around it being so close to the cab or something.SaveShare
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4,175 Posts #220 • Jul 5, 2012Yeah, no kidding. My 15 speed in the Pete was running 150 degrees pulling 40k and a hell of a lot of aero drag and 95+ ambient temp. I can see double over creating a little more heat, but jeez!.
 

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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #221 • Jul 5, 2012Eaton says 230 is the warmest they should run. I figure it's mainly lack of airflow, and possibly higher speeds than really intended, I usually run 70-72 when loaded which is right around 2,000RPM. I'd figure they were intended for more like 60-65 at 1700 - though that's a pretty marginal difference.

I'd like to swap 3.55s in at some point so 7 or 7over would be the usual loaded cruising gear, but I'll wait until I trip over gears or complete axles at some point.

We'll see how the fancy lube does. I expect lower temps and more noise.



I think I wheeled Coy Hill twice, definitely once in a borrowed Explorer on 33s that I returned with no outside rearview mirrors, and I think once in the Dakota. I honestly don't remember the Dakota trip at all.
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7



#222 Jul 5, 2012I also was thinking about fabbing up some baffles to bolt to the truck frame to direct air up and around the transmission case too. It's about 1/3 surrounded by the doghouse with only an inch or two of air gap, and it's fully tucked above the frame rails with an axle in front of it blocking a lot of airflow. In short it's tucked in really tight on all sides compared to a stock MDT/ HDT application.

That could be done quite easily, and could potentially help a lot - and perhaps be much cheaper than a cooler setup (new list price, I think $1200-1500 - gear swap is harder but cheaper...)

If I get the damn AC repaired it would matter less but even so it really heats up the interior after I shut down.L

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1,565 Posts #223 • Jul 5, 2012$1200+ is crazy, that must be for extremely severe duty applications or something. If you really needed to I bet you could just hook a little pump up to an AT trans cooler or something.SaveShare
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1,655 Posts #224 • Jul 5, 2012tilton trans/diff oil pump # til40-524. summit racing $160.00 1 to 2 gpm depending on line length and cooler used. thats where i'm going with my g-56 6spd in my dodge. "IF" you ever have the trans out spray it with lizard skin or somthing that will help toUSN 2x Viet Nam Vet.
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961 Posts #225 • Jul 5, 2012That 80W-90 is a "no-no" in a Fuller. That's rear end lube, not for a transmission. You'll be OK with regular 50wt transmission lube and not have to spend the extra bucks on synthetic. Make sure!!! you flush out that 80W-90 as best as you can.SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #226 • Jul 6, 2012drained 3.5 or so gallons of the 80w90 last night and refilled. I didn't try to do any flushing, the dilution of any little bit left in there will be thousands to one.

magnet on the drain plug looked great. Which I would hope after only 40,000 miles or so.




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1,161 Posts #227 • Jul 7, 2012
spreader said:
That 80W-90 is a "no-no" in a Fuller. That's rear end lube, not for a transmission. You'll be OK with regular 50wt transmission lube and not have to spend the extra bucks on synthetic. Make sure!!! you flush out that 80W-90 as best as you can.​
Indeed. In fact, a good straight 50W HD motor oil is acceptable in them. Here's Eaton's Lubrication manual, if you want it straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups..._tcmt-0021.pdf

The trans was getting warm because of the shearing action of the too-viscous fluid. Or at least that is a large part of it. You should have no more problems with the stuff you got, and I'll be it shifts a whole lot better, too!SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #228 • Jul 9, 2012No difference in shifting or noise; haven't had a long loaded drive to observe temps yet.




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116 Posts #229 • Jul 13, 2012nice thread. I had never seen it before. I to am planning a rt009513 in a cummins truck. ..I'm in ny also. have you seen the Comp d thread with f550/F450 and rt009513?... he's' got a few videos up.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=118967
Buck out in Ca has 6513 in his service truck..he ahs a bunch ovof videos up he has soem 453 trucks etc.. i had a 6513 but my friend has it now i may be able to grab it back but no od and no gear splits in the 65 series 13 spds...
Thanks,
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37,102 Posts #230 • Jul 13, 2012
therabbittree said:
i had a 6513 but my friend has it now i may be able to grab it back but no od and no gear splits in the 65 series 13 spds...​
We'd love to see a build thread when you start yours.

No OD would be fine if you had a 3.53 rearend, but anything deeper in your diffs, you'd want OD.

I believe you can swap the gears in the 13 speeds to make it an O or OO trans.

http://forums.aths.org/Topic132425.aspx
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...n-speeds/page496 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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37,102 Posts #231 • Jul 13, 2012More:
Mix and match 9-speed and 13-speed RR parts for OO:
http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forum...p/t-95294.html

http://www.thecombineforum.com/forum...-ratios-4.html

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2,748 Posts #232 • Jul 13, 2012 (Edited)
MT4Runner said:
No OD would be fine if you had a 3.53 rearend, but anything deeper in your diffs, you'd want OD.​
youd positively need governor springs to run on the highway with anything under 33's.

if i lock out the overdrive, the truck falls off around 50 and is just dead pedal by 55. thats a 12v with stock gov springs>47re>3.54> 235/85/R16

nice links!God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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37,102 Posts #233 • Jul 13, 2012
mike_belben said:
nice links!​
I'd seen the ATHS one before; in searching for it to repost for therabbittree, I saw that it was semi-common.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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2,748 Posts #234 • Jul 13, 2012i think id avoid the DIY OD. read it 15 times and never seen anyone that didnt have something bad to say about the splits. the rear yoke nut takes 450-500 ft/lb btw. have fun with that guys. :flipoff2:God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #235 • Jul 13, 2012easy torque to reach with a 3:1 (not that I have one)
Wish I could have found threads like that before this build, I was hoping I could junkyard it. I like consistant splits though and that's worth doing it right for a tow rig.


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4,055 Posts #236 • Jul 13, 2012Mr. Mindless what's the heaviest load you've pulled and how does your set up do in the hills?Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd Prez
 

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37,102 Posts #237 • Jul 13, 2012Worth linking for the DIY set!

Consistent splits are very, very nice when you're loaded near max GCVW.

Frankly, inconsistent splits would be wierd...but again, for a DIY/junkyard option, worth considering.96 5vzfe SC 4Runner - Motorhome RenovationSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #238 • Jul 13, 2012 (Edited)gross just under 28k was my heaviest; no big hills on that trip.

frequently 24ish through PA and VA mountains. Does well. split down to 8d for most grades, 7o for the longer ones when EGTs are climbing. and the splits are real nice on the non-interstates and their steeper grades and lower speeds
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4,055 Posts #239 • Jul 13, 2012I loved the 13 with the Detroit that I drove. I don't have much of a concept with these smaller diesels. The truck max is 26k and I may be pulling a car or small pick up with it at some point. I'll even go with a 10 if I get the right set up for pulling hills while still being able to do at least the speed limit on the flats.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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37,102 Posts #240 • Jul 13, 2012
Bustin Loose said:
I loved the 13 with the Detroit that I drove. I don't have much of a concept with these smaller diesels. The truck max is 26k and I may be pulling a car or small pick up with it at some point. I'll even go with a 10 if I get the right set up for pulling hills while still being able to do at least the speed limit on the flats.
Big truck + medium sized diesel + heavy load is a similar concept to
Medium truck + smallish diesel + moderate load.

Lots different from Small truck (1T) + medium-sized diesel (small displacement, but chipped + fuel + air like a lot of offroad towrigs) + light load (8k truck + 10k trailer = 18k GCVW).

You know how to shift and listen to an engine. Don't be humble. I think you have the concept. :smokin:
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mike_belben

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2,748 Posts #241 • Jul 13, 2012bustin loose-

theres over 250 different models of 10 speed roadranger and 80% of them have 34-38% ratio steps (large.) only a relative few have close'ish ratios but theyre still only gonna be awesome at takeoff speed and gappy on highway grades like what you have now. for all the effort, there are plenty of splitter trannies out there. if you're gonna do the work, hold out for the 13spd RTLO, get an 18 speed handle and play splitter jockey all over town.

betterbuilt transmission on rocust st in springfield does nothing but roadrangers. might wanna see what they can do. dont be shocked when you walk in to find out theyre jet black jamaicans. still a great shop with good prices, everyone goes to them for truck trans stuff out here.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #242 • Jul 13, 2012Could always put a Brownie behind what you have an twin stick it too.

On the RTOO topic I really wish I could have found this part number for the shifter isolator before today. ATRO MS99-63794

I just need to find where to get one now.Last Minute Motorsports
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4,055 Posts #243 • Jul 13, 2012No twin sticks. I was just asking for future improvements I have in mind, not for now. And I was curious as to how things were working out since you swapped the 13 in.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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2,748 Posts #244 • Jul 13, 2012you could try those guys i mentioned above and if they wont mail you the part, you could pay by debit and i could mail it out.

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116 Posts #245 • Jul 14, 2012fleet pride or any of the truck dealers should be able to get one for you. i will try my soureces.. here in eastern ny and advise you ..Thanks
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #246 • Jul 16, 2012 (Edited)I spent a lot of up-close-and-personal time in that neighborhood this weekend pulling my heater box to replace heater and evap cores. I'm not sure I can tuck one of those under my shift boot before I run out of shifter length. The top of the tower is almost where the boot starts...Last Minute Motorsports
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2,748 Posts #247 • Jul 16, 2012 (Edited)whats the isolator made of? could you cut one down or make something similar?

i wonder if they work like the rubber balancers in crank pulleys where the mass oscillates opposite the cranks twisting to cancel it out. a stack of hockey pucks bored larger than the shifter shaft then glued on with soft window adhesive is the first thing coming to my mind.

window weld was a black urethane i used to fill stock motor mounts in with good results.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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255 Posts #248 • Jul 18, 2012I just brought my rtoo-9513 home today from holst truck parts. I've got a shifter with an isolator on it if anybody what's a picture or measurements let me know. Also got my hands on a sae2 5.9cummins starter that's damn near identical to my stock starter, so should be no clearance issues. I'll get part #s and post later this week.

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2,748 Posts #249 • Jul 18, 2012pics of said isolator attached to shifter would be coolGod Bless AmericaSaveShare
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255 Posts #250 • Jul 22, 2012 (Edited)shifter

shifter and isolator. question about your flywheel Mr. mindless, you said that the stock cummins flywheel bolts are to short. what kinda bolts did you use? I've been trying to figure that out and drag a part number out of parts housing, junk yard around and nobody knows. lol
shifterisolator.jpg


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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #251 • Jul 23, 2012got the original bolts with my replacement flywheel. Sorry ,no p/n or ESN.

isolator would be a squeeze for me. It's a lot quieter with the CD-50 in it so I'm not going to worry about it. Took a long trip this weekend and it will still get hot, saw 235 once - but it goes up and down more. Heats up at about the same rate but doesn't hold the heat as much, it'll cool down on the road a bit.

I'll look at putting some air deflectors under the truck at some point but again I'm not too worried since it didn't spend hours up at 230+, it cooled back off on its own.Last Minute Motorsports
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koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #252 • Jul 23, 2012
jase338 said:​

shifterisolator.jpg

Click to expand...im confused which part is the isolator? that cylindrical piece at 8" up?God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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72 Posts #253 • Jul 23, 2012Mr. Mindless, I know it some what expensive, but when we owned big rigs, we ran Lucas gear oil in everywhere we could and ran Lucas fuel stabilizer. I don't if you could run it in that eaton or not, I can't remember if our eaton super 10 had Lucas or what we ran but I know the Rockwell truck we had got a bit of Lucas in it. At one time we had 2 trucks an this is just what little I know. Its been a bit since I've messed with any of them, but your thread makes me miss them.Guns Do NOT kill People, People kill people. "Kick the tires and Light the fires."SaveShare
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255 Posts #254 • Jul 24, 2012
mike_belben said:
im confused which part is the isolator? that cylindrical piece at 8" up?
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2,748 Posts #255 • Jul 25, 2012my RTOO doesnt have that. just a straight shaft into the ball socket.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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255 Posts #256 • Jul 28, 2012the yard i got my trans from had at least 200 shift towers on a shelf. guy just walked over and said if it has this base it will work, pick one out. lol saw the one with the isolator and grabbed it.:laughing:
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2,748 Posts #257 • Jul 28, 2012mine is pretty shot. if it ever goes in anything ill have to rebuild it or get another. the trans shop out here gets like a hundred for em.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #258 • Feb 20, 2013Parting this truck out starting next weekend. Motor blew on me and I'm throwing in the towel. It's been GREAT but I don't really feel like putting a third motor in it and still needing fresh rockers and a new bed.

as-is, where-is for $7000. It used ten gallons of oil but it drove back to my driveway as it is....
318,000 on original parts & body.
'02 ISB205 bus motor had 120-140k when installed at 268673
RoadRanger 13 sp installed at 263390, zero mile rebuild.

P7100 215 on a 24v that seems like it has an exhaust valve not opening and has extreme blowby. probably will not start again without valvetrain work. Stage 3 Big Stick cam; wouldn't bet on that being good anymore.
RTOO9513, fresh rebuild and new clutch 55,000 miles ago
fresh batteries, fresh front clip incl used intercooler, new rad, new condenser, fresh Curt class V hitch, fresh mech. lift pump, fresh fuel pickup/sending unit. newer blower motor, new resistor, just changed heater and evap cores this past summer. black over tan dash with no cracks. 20% film on all side windows 5% film on rear window
Ford knuckle swap with big rotors, twin piston calipers, stock 30sp stubs and lockouts
no transfer case or front driveshaft - never got around to making it 4x4 again
shutdown solenoid not present. pump needs mounting threads repaired.
new rear spring shackles last week
spare tire winch broken
new fuel filler neck
electric Thomas air compressor and small tank for trans air
good heater grid
good block heater
105 gallon transfer tank
HX35 with Banks Brake
boost, pyro, trans temp, fuel pressure gauges
clean tan interior
4.10 gears
225/70r19.5s all around steers need rotating and drives are thin

rockers are rotten but the rest of the cab is good. Will include rocker cuts from another cab that I have. bed is rotted and failing, needs bracing or repairing, the tailgate and toobox are holding it together right now. rear bumper rotted and damaged as well.



between the trans, P-pump swap, axles, wheels and tires, that's a firm price. In fact, I'm almost talking myself out of it. I just didn't want to spend another pile of money on a rebuilt motor to still have all the body work to do. I had a line on a hauler bed, and I have reasonable condition rockers to graft on, but I've been itching for something southern and clean.

After the 16th of March, I can help with delivery. Posting in for-sale in several forums too once I have a chance.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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1,150 Posts #259 • Feb 20, 2013 (Edited)New York sucks. You never really hear of 2nd gens (or anything from the 90's) rusting away down here unless they came down from your area.SaveShare
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11,780 Posts #260 • Feb 20, 2013 (Edited)
Mr. Mindless said:
but I've been itching for something southern and clean.
I wish I'd realized this earlier. You just can't weld fresh steel to it when it gets to a point.

Got an oilfield truck around here for cheap, no cab rust and a solid double 1/4" frame. Gotta blast off the underside and get it gooped up with undercoating as soon as possible.
 

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mike_belben

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2,748 Posts #261 • Feb 20, 2013similar boat. when we get down south ill probably recycle mine into something classic crewcab with a steel bed.

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363 Posts #262 • Feb 21, 2013
Mr. Mindless said:
Parting this truck out starting next weekend. Motor blew on me and I'm throwing in the towel. It's been GREAT but I don't really feel like putting a third motor in it and still needing fresh rockers and a new bed.

as-is, where-is for $7000. It used ten gallons of oil but it drove back to my driveway as it is....
318,000 on original parts & body.
'02 ISB205 bus motor had 120-140k when installed at 268673
RoadRanger 13 sp installed at 263390, zero mile rebuild.

P7100 215 on a 24v that seems like it has an exhaust valve not opening and has extreme blowby. probably will not start again without valvetrain work. Stage 3 Big Stick cam; wouldn't bet on that being good anymore.
RTOO9513, fresh rebuild and new clutch 55,000 miles ago
fresh batteries, fresh front clip incl used intercooler, new rad, new condenser, fresh Curt class V hitch, fresh mech. lift pump, fresh fuel pickup/sending unit. newer blower motor, new resistor, just changed heater and evap cores this past summer. black over tan dash with no cracks. 20% film on all side windows 5% film on rear window
Ford knuckle swap with big rotors, twin piston calipers, stock 30sp stubs and lockouts
no transfer case or front driveshaft - never got around to making it 4x4 again
shutdown solenoid not present. pump needs mounting threads repaired.
new rear spring shackles last week
spare tire winch broken
new fuel filler neck
electric Thomas air compressor and small tank for trans air
good heater grid
good block heater
105 gallon transfer tank
HX35 with Banks Brake
boost, pyro, trans temp, fuel pressure gauges
clean tan interior
4.10 gears
225/70r19.5s all around steers need rotating and drives are thin

rockers are rotten but the rest of the cab is good. Will include rocker cuts from another cab that I have. bed is rotted and failing, needs bracing or repairing, the tailgate and toobox are holding it together right now. rear bumper rotted and damaged as well.



between the trans, P-pump swap, axles, wheels and tires, that's a firm price. In fact, I'm almost talking myself out of it. I just didn't want to spend another pile of money on a rebuilt motor to still have all the body work to do. I had a line on a hauler bed, and I have reasonable condition rockers to graft on, but I've been itching for something southern and clean.

After the 16th of March, I can help with delivery. Posting in for-sale in several forums too once I have a chance.
Click to expand...​
I'd be interested in the p pump swap parts minus the pump, what size lines? also if the cam isnt wasted i might be interested in that too'93 Chevy 3500 DRW: Built P-Pumped 24V HT3B/HX35 Twins & NV4500SaveShare
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4,055 Posts #263 • Feb 22, 2013
Mr. Mindless said:
Parting this truck out starting next weekend. Motor blew on me and I'm throwing in the towel.

RTOO9513, fresh rebuild and new clutch 55,000 miles ago​
A little piece of me died inside reading this. I wish you the best on finding that next workhorse.Were people to mingle only with those of like mind, every man would be an insulate being. 3rd PrezSaveShare
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11,780 Posts #264 • Feb 22, 2013How'd the motor fail?SaveShare
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #265 • Feb 22, 2013 (Edited)Pump swap will be sold complete, I'm not splitting it up without buyers for both. Lines are mild steel stock diameter.

Don't know what killed the motor yet. Lots of blowby, blows out all its oil, and has valve issues that it didn't 700 miles ago when I checked the backlash when looking for a bent pushrod. Broken or flatted cam is my expectation for the dead hole. No bites on the complete truck so it's looking like I'll find out myself.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,748 Posts #266 • Feb 22, 2013in for the autopsy. thanks for the chance.God Bless AmericaSaveShare
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2,408 Posts #267 • Feb 22, 2013What's the driver side dually fender look like?juggy under construction
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5,112 Posts Discussion Starter • #268 • Feb 23, 2013Driver side flare is 100% good from memory. I'll do a detailed look at everything if it comes to parting.Last Minute Motorsports
Bro-Lite racing #5, Legends #571, UTV codog #901
koh19 crew: 4632
koh18 codog: 901, 4816 - crew: 928, 209, 4610
Mint17 pit crew: 4454, 946, 8199
koh16 codog: 2700 - crew: 572, 928, 4610
koh15 crew: 572

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2,408 Posts #269 • Feb 23, 2013ok , but put me down for the fender when you start parting it out.juggy under construction
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4,867 Posts #270 • Feb 24, 2013 (Edited)You sticking with a pickup? IIRC you use your truck to work with too..Was wondering what you are gonna step into next truck wise

Edit:N.M. just saw the post on the ltlhotshot board..I need a used Winters shift for a standard pattern TH400, its for the wifes drag week effort.
 
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