Larboc finally starts building a shop.

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    #16
    next loaded dump truck... back it in (and out... in and out)... use the rear tires to compact.. Yes, it's going to spread, but it will also push.

    in my neck of the woods, that lift likely would have been done first with surge...
    Last edited by rockota; 1 week ago.

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      #17
      Originally posted by rockota View Post
      next loaded dump truck... back it in... use the rear tires to compact.. Yes, it's going to spread, but it will also push.

      in my neck of the woods, that lift likely would have been done first with surge...
      I do that every dump. I back up until the truck starts to go down hill, dump, and pull away as it finished dumping. I have to lock the axles and leave the bed raised to pull away. As more get's filled closer to level I'll do it as much as I can. I'll experiment a little and takes pics of the effects. I'll get stuck if I try to do it at the bottom, but at the higher spots that are more level with the existing driveway it will be doable, but I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting because of how much it's displacing the sand.

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        #18
        Originally posted by larboc View Post

        I do that every dump. I back up until the truck starts to go down hill, dump, and pull away as it finished dumping. I have to lock the axles and leave the bed raised to pull away. As more get's filled closer to level I'll do it as much as I can. I'll experiment a little and takes pics of the effects. I'll get stuck if I try to do it at the bottom, but at the higher spots that are more level with the existing driveway it will be doable, but I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting because of how much it's displacing the sand.
        can you put a berm of surge around the outside of teh build area? To try to keep the sand somewhat contained?

        When I built my house, the dirt guy backfilled my garage with dirt, etc... builder made him pull it out and replace it with surge. he said the rock would put less pressure on the block (i.e. spread sideways).

        No idea how true that is/was... but after 6 years, I have but one small hairline crack in the concrete... :shrug:

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          #19
          Originally posted by rockota View Post

          can you put a berm of surge around the outside of teh build area? To try to keep the sand somewhat contained?

          When I built my house, the dirt guy backfilled my garage with dirt, etc... builder made him pull it out and replace it with surge. he said the rock would put less pressure on the block (i.e. spread sideways).

          No idea how true that is/was... but after 6 years, I have but one small hairline crack in the concrete... :shrug:
          "surge" to me means switched flooding for irrigation?

          I'm going to slope the sand and then either put the topsoil or crusher run minerock over it all to stabilize it. That's all something I can do once the weather gets colder. I could be as little as a week away from freezing temps that require me to drain the loader so I'm trying to get as much sand moved and packed as fast as possible.

          You all got me nervous so I spent some time and I did some tests tonight with a drop weight and axle shaft. The ~40# weight dropped from 12" on to a 1.25" OD steel rod penetrated 10-12" into the compacted sand at my fill site depending on where I set it. I then took it over to the borrow pit and got virtually the same results. When I did it into a freshly dumped pile it went in 24"+
          I really think I'm getting good compaction even though it's slow. I did back the dump truck onto the site as far as I could and went back and forth a bunch until I eventually got stuck and had to dump to get out. I couldn't really tell it was doing much but I kept doing it with each load and will continue over the whole site as I get it high/level enough to not bury the truck. Click image for larger version Name:	dumpr.jpg Views:	0 Size:	677.7 KB ID:	132508

          The sand would rise up pretty high in between the duals and on each side. I took a shovel and averaged it out across the tracks and it seemed to average about as high as it was before.

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            #20
            surge - basically "large" stone...


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              #21
              Originally posted by rockota View Post
              surge - basically "large" stone...

              That's what we'd call "pit run mine rock" here. Probably not a great choice to use with sand directly as the sand will wash through it over time. Fabric would help, for awhile.

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                #22
                I put a 275 gallon tank of water in the back of my truck and spent 2 hours driving around packing the areas i can't get the dump on yet. Only got stuck once Click image for larger version
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                I can't tell much of a difference but I'm sure it didn't hurt, I'll keep doing it instead of the samurai Click image for larger version
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                  #23
                  weight in the truck doesn't matter as much as tire pressure. same psi.. same ground pressure. if the dump truck digs holes then any crack a concrete pad will sink right?. sand? i can see contained sand like to fill a garage that already has a footer and stem wall.

                  sand, near wetland area, over organic material, getting stuck/ sinking in the grass next to the fill area. i'm just the metal guy on the sites i go to, but thats all a no go around where i'm at. around here all organic would be pushed off and filled with large 1.5" crush rock in steps and real deal/ bomag compacted.
                  Last edited by tracyb; 6 days ago.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by larboc View Post

                    That's what we'd call "pit run mine rock" here. Probably not a great choice to use with sand directly as the sand will wash through it over time. Fabric would help, for awhile.
                    true - it can wash through.

                    Dumb question... Why use sand for fill?

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by tracyb View Post
                      weight in the truck doesn't matter as much as tire pressure. same psi.. same ground pressure. if the dump truck digs holes then any crack a concrete pad will sink right?. sand? i can see contained sand like to fill a garage that already has a footer and stem wall.

                      sand, near wetland area, over organic material, getting stuck/ sinking in the grass next to the fill area. i'm just the metal guy on the sites i go to, but thats all a no go around where i'm at. around here all organic would be pushed off and filled with large 1.5" crush rock in steps and real deal/ bomag compacted.
                      I didn't really get good pictures of it, but I scraped all the organics off of where I'm building and piled them up at the bottom of the site. There was a 4-16" layer of topsoil and construction waste (pipe, appliances, bricks, 2x4's etc.) that I removed and got down to the clean sandy hardpan. It's a bit of a grey area if you're supposed to disturb topsoil and roots before placing fill near a wetland so I did my best to make it look like it didn't happen and filled in the removed area with sand up to the level of the surrounding topsoil and slightly onto the grass. When I got stuck I had backed too far away from the fill and buried it in that layer. The swamp/wetland area was a borrow pit made by the builder of the house to get sand for the rest of the site and then he set up culverts to it to get it water moving through it for a water feature and drainage of the rest of the property. So it's not like it's completely bottomless loon shit, it's 16" of bottomless loon shit.

                      I will likely be spacing the building farther away from that northeast corner than I had originally planned just to be safe. I'm going to build it up and fill it in like I it's getting a slab on it but it's more likely that I'll stay 8' of build able area away from the edge and build a lean to on it after a few years.

                      After another 34 yard haul, spread, roll with 10,000 lb water truck on bald treadwrights, 2 plate compactor passes last night it seems like it should be firmer but it's pretty hard to tell just looking at the surface. After another 100 yards or so I should be able to get the dump truck on most of the site as I build up. I can just now consistently get the loaded dump truck (50,000lbs) on the first 20' of the south edge without constantly getting stuck and it does seem to be firming up in that area after I level out the ruts and run the plate across it and then put the dump truck on it again. I'm doing passes straight, and then crisscross. When doing my axleshaft pound test it's still about the same as the undisturbed soil where I'm digging so it may just all be in my head.

                      I've called a few places and so far nobody has a Bomag available around here for the rest of the year, everything's booked till next summer. I think that at this point I'd be better off getting it all hauled and packed as good as I can with the 10k truck, 50k truck, and plate in small lifts now and letting it set over winter rather than trying to find a bomag in the spring and miss out on the 9 months of settling and temperature swings. Hands down a bomag would be way faster but if I stick to 4" lifts and let it set all winter I can't see what the difference in final compaction would be. Lots of garages and houses are built around here like this. The sand I'm using is what they use as base for class A road beds around here (their pit is about 1500ft from mine), then they top it with rock before paving and they cover the slopes with topsoil.

                      The biggest thing to watch for around here that will cause damage to a slab is building on clay or other moisture retaining material that heaves when it freezes and that will pulverize a slab. Settling on poorly compacted fill is of course a cause for concern but to be honest I've seen garages built on sand on similar fill sites with a lot less attention paid to compaction until the final 12" or so and they never had any serious issues.

                      One variable I haven't decided on yet is to do a floating slab or dig down and put in footers. I'm compacting as good as I can everywhere for now, so that doesn't really affect what I'm doing now, but something I'm going to have to consider.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by rockota View Post

                        true - it can wash through.

                        Dumb question... Why use sand for fill?
                        Well graded angular sand like this makes for good fill because it drains well to prevent frost heaving, doesn't settle much, and the even distribution of grain sizes help lock it together. It's about the best natural fill material you can get around here since most of the gravel that was on top of it has been stripped and used long ago.

                        It's nothing like beach sand which would be garbage to build on because it's smooth and generally has only one size of grain so it slips around a lot.

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                          #27
                          interesting, never really thought about sand being different, i'm in the islands of WA and i suppose all the sadn around here is the beach variety. and frost heave really isn't a factor. sound s like you have a good plan.

                          i like seeing the shop builds and will be following along.

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                            #28
                            i know working around 'wetlands' can suck.

                            funny story;
                            a buddy and dirt work contractor had half his property probably 3 acres in wetlands... he filled it all in then 'planted' stumps and let the brush grow for a year before inspection and got it all signed off as buildable land. its a little obvious that the wetlands end right at his propertty line but that one impressed me, couldn't believe he pulled it off. especially seeing it before he started filling.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by ThePanzerFuhrer View Post

                              No idea what renting one costs. I know my dad rents ours out to other excavation contractors occasionally. It’s a stupid piece of equipment to own but when you need it, you need it ;(

                              Click image for larger version Name:	image_23231.jpg Views:	96 Size:	250.2 KB ID:	131749

                              This is in the ballpark of being affordable, but would it really be a significant improvement over what I'm doing or save any time. Seems like the wrong tool for the job? $900 a week.
                              https://catalog.mrmqt.com/product/ca...-asphalt/53279

                              I bugged the local contractor re-doing the highway and their Bomag style Cat roller is a rental, is busy, has a significant motor problem, and they can't rent it out.

                              Edit: What about this guy? I can't tell if it vibrates or not. https://wausau.craigslist.org/grd/d/...181300283.html
                              Last edited by larboc; 5 days ago.

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                                #30
                                I read most of this thread, but might have missed something.

                                Watch this video and consider putting some layers of fabric down between the layers of sand.

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0olpSN6_TCc


                                "If she'll wink, she'll fuck"

                                GO MINING

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