40,000 under evacuation orders as crews work to prevent hazmat explosion in Southern California

Captain Call said:
I just looked up the protocol in my ERG and at this point they've done everything in the book except the last resort which is gtfo and let the fire burn.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that FDs are in no way prepared for things like this to potentially happen and the protocol is just a bunch of nonsense to say we did "something" :shaking:
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Why the hell can't they cool it with something like nitrogen and at the same time get tank trucks lined up to drain it while its cooling?
Click to expand...
My uneducated guess.

They need way more cooling than you think, and a bazillion gallons of water cools better than a limited amount of nitrogen.

High pressure valve was broken, and no way to pump it out.

Reaction could continue in the other vehicles/tanks, resulting in explosion/contamination elsewhere. (Garden grove has got urban areas around it for a very long ways, the train tracks all move through more dense neighborhoods).

I am sure they got lots of people working round the clock to come up with a solution that are all well versed in stuff like this. Mainly because this is a private company in charge and they know they will likely no longer exist and be in jail if this thing explodes. If it was the government in charge I would be less sure.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
So what you are saying is that FDs are in no way prepared for things like this to potentially happen and the protocol is just a bunch of nonsense to say we did "something" :shaking:
Click to expand...
Um, sure?

D00d, I can't say exactly what their hazmat team is doing cause I'm not there.

I've just had the training. But I'm no way as much of an expert as yourself seems to be.
 
I haven’t weighed in because I’m not familiar with the chemical that’s leaking. I’m first responder certified and trained for hydrocarbon blowouts.

Chain of command gets ****y in these situations. Even if the employees of the chemical plant are trained in first response. Once the fire department arrives you have to relent to their command. It doesn’t matter how dumb and untrained they are you have to hand over point of contact to some douche bag fire chief. They usually err on the extreme side of caution and don’t let people anywhere near the danger zone. Even if there’s something meaningful that a suited up person who belongs to the chemical plant could do about it. Fire D-bags can have you restrained/arrested for going to shut a valve.

I’ve been second response 3 times to big disasters. It’s the dumbest thing in an emergency. I have to take a team in and explain to useless **** bag what I intend to do. Explain to him how I intend to do it. Explain to him what protocols we have in place for the mission. If said **** bag gives me and my team permission to go DIE in there. They tell us that if we die in there that there won’t be any further response to collect our dead bodies. I concede that I was aware of that in the first place. Sign my name on a piece of paper that says I was informed of ****bags authority and that I’m responsible for my own death. Then walk or drive in and do whatever I need to do.

Fire department pats themselves on the back for saving the day. Always.
 
Stingray said:
Been watching it since yesterday, I'm a little outside the evac. area.

seems like they should punch a hole in the tank and just contain the spill rather than this waiting game.

Remote robot with a waterjet, and vent the ****er.

idk **** but I did stay at a Holiday inn last night :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:
Click to expand...
.300 win mag makes a good hole puncher...
 
I was just thinking a portable chiller of appropriate tonnage is ready to go, already on a trailer, plenty of companies that do that.

So you need a way to get chemical to an exchanger or get the exchanger in the tank.

Imo that could be done pretty quickly in a place as industrious as SoCal.

Tent the mofo and start pumping cold air in it.

What's the evaporation rate in btu of the water they are spraying on it? Get portable snow machine and spray it with snow....

I guess we saw how they handled this on that railroad deal, have to just go ahead and let it blow...
 
JR4X said:
I haven’t weighed in because I’m not familiar with the chemical that’s leaking. I’m first responder certified and trained for hydrocarbon blowouts.

Chain of command gets ****y in these situations. Even if the employees of the chemical plant are trained in first response. Once the fire department arrives you have to relent to their command. It doesn’t matter how dumb and untrained they are you have to hand over point of contact to some douche bag fire chief. They usually err on the extreme side of caution and don’t let people anywhere near the danger zone. Even if there’s something meaningful that a suited up person who belongs to the chemical plant could do about it. Fire D-bags can have you restrained/arrested for going to shut a valve.

I’ve been second response 3 times to big disasters. It’s the dumbest thing in an emergency. I have to take a team in and explain to useless **** bag what I intend to do. Explain to him how I intend to do it. Explain to him what protocols we have in place for the mission. If said **** bag gives me and my team permission to go DIE in there. They tell us that if we die in there that there won’t be any further response to collect our dead bodies. I concede that I was aware of that in the first place. Sign my name on a piece of paper that says I was informed of ****bags authority and that I’m responsible for my own death. Then walk or drive in and do whatever I need to do.

Fire department pats themselves on the back for saving the day. Always.
Click to expand...

People like you are who they should be calling. Instead we get government bureaucracy blocking the path to potentially solving the problem and most likely making it 100X worse by doing nothing. You really can't make this **** up....
 
CarterKraft said:
I was just thinking a portable chiller of appropriate tonnage is ready to go, already on a trailer, plenty of companies that do that.

So you need a way to get chemical to an exchanger or get the exchanger in the tank.

Imo that could be done pretty quickly in a place as industrious as SoCal.

Tent the mofo and start pumping cold air in it.

What's the evaporation rate in btu of the water they are spraying on it? Get portable snow machine and spray it with snow....

I guess we saw how they handled this on that railroad deal, have to just go ahead and let it blow...
Click to expand...

I bet the water they were using to "cool it" was no less that 70°. I doubt they were running it through chillers to get the tank back down to the 50° it needs to be.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
So are they just waiting for it to blow up now???
Click to expand...
Sounds like it.

I looked up the MSDS on it. Auto ignition is 800° F, that doesn’t concern me at all.

The lower explosive limit and upper explosive limit are a lot more volatile than methane. Hard to say what LEL/UEL they are seeing on the ground. 1.7%/12.5%. It’s going to be an SCBA and hazmat suit to enter with the concern of static electricity ignition.

Since it’s a crack in the tank not a valved blow out, they can only keep people out of the LEL/UEL zone. If ambient temp doesn’t make it feasible to get the temp down below 50° they’re just going to have to do what they’re doing till the contents of the tank are gone. The liquid nitrogen thing isn’t a bad idea unless it requires driving Nitrogen trucks to a connection point and running them next to the leaking tank. The catalytic converter on anything allowed to operate in California is going to be to near auto ignition temp with that LEL. If it’s above the UEL no engine could run in that environment without having a runaway. MSDS says no chemical reaction between the MMA and Nitrogen. Concern would be, say you pump nitrogen into the bottom of the tank to cool down the MMA, the boiling effect of the nitrogen is probably going to evacuate the tank anyway. Nitrogen’s boiling point is -320° it’s going to rumble that tank like a volcano because of the temperature differential.

Looks like fully depleting the tank is the only option. Pump it out if they can get latched onto the tank valve with good air around it.
 
If they are not equipped to deal with this, why not get Army/Corps of the Engineers involved.
There has to be a level head with a plan vs local FD bumbling about...
 
Seeing how it has increased 40* since this started are they thinking they will have a shot at controlling it?

I guess I don't understand if 5+ fireman are walking around the tank why couldn't engineer a cooling solution, pump off solution etc.
 
JR4X said:
I haven’t weighed in because I’m not familiar with the chemical that’s leaking. I’m first responder certified and trained for hydrocarbon blowouts.

Chain of command gets ****y in these situations. Even if the employees of the chemical plant are trained in first response. Once the fire department arrives you have to relent to their command. It doesn’t matter how dumb and untrained they are you have to hand over point of contact to some douche bag fire chief. They usually err on the extreme side of caution and don’t let people anywhere near the danger zone. Even if there’s something meaningful that a suited up person who belongs to the chemical plant could do about it. Fire D-bags can have you restrained/arrested for going to shut a valve.

I’ve been second response 3 times to big disasters. It’s the dumbest thing in an emergency. I have to take a team in and explain to useless **** bag what I intend to do. Explain to him how I intend to do it. Explain to him what protocols we have in place for the mission. If said **** bag gives me and my team permission to go DIE in there. They tell us that if we die in there that there won’t be any further response to collect our dead bodies. I concede that I was aware of that in the first place. Sign my name on a piece of paper that says I was informed of ****bags authority and that I’m responsible for my own death. Then walk or drive in and do whatever I need to do.

Fire department pats themselves on the back for saving the day. Always.
Click to expand...
Didnt read all of the responses on this, but as a douche bag fire chief, that manages a hazmat team, I would prefer to have someone familiar with the product and the workings of the equipment to be part of the mitigation crew. There have been multiple incidents that I have been on where we have suited company people up and sent them in with our crews. As the subject matter experts, their help is invaluable.
 
maveric said:
Didnt read all of the responses on this, but as a douche bag fire chief, that manages a hazmat team, I would prefer to have someone familiar with the product and the workings of the equipment to be part of the mitigation crew. There have been multiple incidents that I have been on where we have suited company people up and sent them in with our crews. As the subject matter experts, their help is invaluable.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it doesn't seem like that is what is going on here. Wait until it leaks out and blows up is whats going on right now.
 
maveric said:
Didnt read all of the responses on this, but as a douche bag fire chief, that manages a hazmat team, I would prefer to have someone familiar with the product and the workings of the equipment to be part of the mitigation crew. There have been multiple incidents that I have been on where we have suited company people up and sent them in with our crews. As the subject matter experts, their help is invaluable.
Click to expand...
I've dealt with both types, We've had haz-mat spills. ( Typically PCB's) Fire shows up and we give a detailed explanation of what the product is, what the hazards are how we are going to mitigate them, and what the cleanup and disposal will be. Usually next I'll ask if there are any concerns or have I missed anything and do you have any questions.

One captain will say sounds like you have it handled, what can we do to assist.
The other will immediately have us stand down, take control of our scene, cordon off the area and toss us out.

The second usually does not go well.


I would think this facility may have staff onsite that is a product expert, and be able to give the properties of the product, but may not know what to do under these circumstances.
 
Rather than waiting for it to leak out and pollute the southern California air, why not just drop a 500 lb bomb from way up high and convert as much to basic forms as possible?

Wont be available to burn for fire season either and should clear out a few homes for added safety buffer zone.

Win/win :flipoff2:
 
JR4X said:
I haven’t weighed in because I’m not familiar with the chemical that’s leaking. I’m first responder certified and trained for hydrocarbon blowouts.

Chain of command gets ****y in these situations. Even if the employees of the chemical plant are trained in first response. Once the fire department arrives you have to relent to their command. It doesn’t matter how dumb and untrained they are you have to hand over point of contact to some douche bag fire chief. They usually err on the extreme side of caution and don’t let people anywhere near the danger zone. Even if there’s something meaningful that a suited up person who belongs to the chemical plant could do about it. Fire D-bags can have you restrained/arrested for going to shut a valve.

I’ve been second response 3 times to big disasters. It’s the dumbest thing in an emergency. I have to take a team in and explain to useless **** bag what I intend to do. Explain to him how I intend to do it. Explain to him what protocols we have in place for the mission. If said **** bag gives me and my team permission to go DIE in there. They tell us that if we die in there that there won’t be any further response to collect our dead bodies. I concede that I was aware of that in the first place. Sign my name on a piece of paper that says I was informed of ****bags authority and that I’m responsible for my own death. Then walk or drive in and do whatever I need to do.

Fire department pats themselves on the back for saving the day. Always.
Click to expand...
How dare you talk ill of sofriedcj he was a saint. :flipoff2:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Back Refresh