Welding Rod End Bungs Into Tubing

Sean

Sean

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I've always greased (to help avoid galling) and screwed an appropriately sized (usually 1 1/4-12 RH and LH) bolt into the bung before welding it to the tube in hopes that it would help keep the threads from being distorted by the heat. I also usually drill at least two 3/8 to 1/2" holes in the tube that I plug weld through the tube and onto the part of the bung that is recessed into the tube itself...I doubt the welder is penetrating deep enough that the heat could be distorting the threads at these plug junctures...but I mention it JIC.

Is putting a bolt in there even necessary? The only reason I ask is I need to buy some 7/8-14 LH and RH bolts to sacrifice to the process if it's worth doing.
 
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A friend of mine, who worked for monster jam, taught me to put a liberal amount of anti seize on the Heim and bung and fully seating the heim in the threads. Then welding them the hottest you can and let them sit overnight to cool. This will keep the bung from warping.

Everytime I do this, The heim will just fall out or rotate after hitting a rock. I have to tack the jam nuts after I put it on.

AKnate said:
Be better off welding and tapping it after.
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You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
 
bad zuki said:
A friend of mine, who worked for monster jam, taught me to put a liberal amount of anti seize on the Heim and bung and fully seating the heim in the threads. Then welding them the hottest you can and let them sit overnight to cool. This will keep the bung from warping.

Everytime I do this, The heim will just fall out or rotate after hitting a rock. I have to tack the jam nuts after I put it on.


You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
Click to expand...
One I have was pretty cheap, maybe $35-40.
 
bad zuki said:
A friend of mine, who worked for monster jam, taught me to put a liberal amount of anti seize on the Heim and bung and fully seating the heim in the threads. Then welding them the hottest you can and let them sit overnight to cool. This will keep the bung from warping.

Everytime I do this, The heim will just fall out or rotate after hitting a rock. I have to tack the jam nuts after I put it on.


You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's the issue with tapping...along with also loosening the thread tolerance.

So you weld with the actual rod end in it? I've always done it with some bolts I don't care about (grade 8...though the LH 1.25-12 is one I had to have made by fastenal IIRC in TX somewhere and it was like $40) and the rod ends have never come loose. I can't see that welding with the rod ends in place would be the cause of them loosening though. Maybe just not enough torque locking the jam nuts down? I usually use a big crescent wrench on the flat of the rod end body and an appropriate sized wrench on the jam nut.
 
bad zuki said:
A friend of mine, who worked for monster jam, taught me to put a liberal amount of anti seize on the Heim and bung and fully seating the heim in the threads. Then welding them the hottest you can and let them sit overnight to cool. This will keep the bung from warping.

Everytime I do this, The heim will just fall out or rotate after hitting a rock. I have to tack the jam nuts after I put it on.


You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I do it and haven't had the issue with them that you described.

What do you mean "fall out", you talking about the heim pulling out of the threads? :confused:
 
bad zuki said:
You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
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I have one if you ever need to fix some threads. I have even tapped some links with it on the Colchester that you saw; thats the only time I have used it.

I did as mentioned above and made some dummy bolts to thread in for the bungs that people have had me weld. I just spray with anti-spatter spray vs grease and never have issues with galling.
 
So it sounds like most of us are putting some sort of threaded bolt/rod end in the bungs before welding...so it's probably a good idea at the very least.
 
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Sean said:
Yeah, that's the issue with tapping...along with also loosening the thread tolerance.

So you weld with the actual rod end in it?
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Yes, The hiem doesn't get hot enough to melt the polymer in my experience. Second. I love making sure the link is the proper length with in/out adjustment. They had to repair stuff after every monster jam show. They found this worked out great.
Sean said:
I can't see that welding with the rod ends in place would be the cause of them loosening though. Maybe just not enough torque locking the jam nuts down? I usually use a big crescent wrench on the flat of the rod end body and an appropriate sized wrench on the jam nut.
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SLOWPOKE693 said:
That's exactly how I do it and haven't had the issue with them that you described.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just meant they Un-thread too easy. If you didnt weld the jam nuts, it would spin way too much. Steering will loosen up. etc. Same dude welding one of his hiems back in after it ripped the threads out. Too loose causes thread wear.

IMG_20160911_100426873.jpg

AlxJ64 said:
I have one if you ever need to fix some threads. I have even tapped some links with it on the Colchester that you saw; thats the only time I have used it.
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I will keep this in mind. The club talked about getting some for aluminum links and they used to be $300+ for one. PS I can't remember if he was on this trip or not, but this is bradys newish rig.
 
bad zuki said:
I will keep this in mind. The club talked about getting some for aluminum links and they used to be $300+ for one. PS I can't remember if he was on this trip or not, but this is bradys newish rig.
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3-1/16" through bore on the lathe so drilling and tapping could be plausible. If I ever finish this Cinci repair, I'll be able to mill wrench flats pretty damn quick too. The issue with the AL is the stock is so damn expensive these days unless you are buying multiple sticks.

Zg86 said:
Ive had good luck using an air hammer and a flat bit on the jam nuts to tighten.
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I have cut out some flare nut style wrench plates for a friend who then uses an air chisel to drive the short wrench while holding the heim / joint in position with the other wrench.
 
Thats not a bad idea, i already have the air hammer fan clutch tool.
 
I only made the mistake once of welding a bung in with a rod end inserted... it never came back out.

Weld in with nothing threaded in it, then run a tap through it, then anti-seize the threads of the rod end before installation. Taps aren't that expensive on Mcmaster-Carr.

Edit: Never have had a jam nut loosen on me. Are yall sure that you are actually tightening them down? :flipoff2:
 
I weld them empty. Why choke on all the mystery smoke of whatever you gooped it up with or risk a permanent interference?

They don’t distort from welding. Sometimes I’ll chase the threads afterwards and they’re completely cool. Taps are stupid cheap anyways. I have a drawer full of every LH and RH 1/2” through 1-1/4”, some new some “used” from a machine shop. All purchased on eBay and I’ve probably invested less than $100 :homer:
 
Well, here's a $53 1 1/4-12 LH tap at Amazon: Amazon.com Most others are WAAAY more expensive.
 
Food for thought:

Every buggy I've ever built has had RH rod ends with close to full thread engagement on both ends of all the links.
They can't self-adjust or disassemble themselves that way.

You might have to pull a bolt to adjust one during the build or maybe after the first run, but for me that tends to be the last time they ever get adjusted?

Couple of years down the track they're beat to **** and being replaced any way.
 
bad zuki said:
A friend of mine, who worked for monster jam, taught me to put a liberal amount of anti seize on the Heim and bung and fully seating the heim in the threads. Then welding them the hottest you can and let them sit overnight to cool. This will keep the bung from warping.

Everytime I do this, The heim will just fall out or rotate after hitting a rock. I have to tack the jam nuts after I put it on.


You ever quote a LH-1-1/4" tap?
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I do aside from letting it sit overnight. I wait until it is cool enough to touch
 
Wendle said:
Food for thought:

Every buggy I've ever built has had RH rod ends with close to full thread engagement on both ends of all the links.
They can't self-adjust or disassemble themselves that way.

You might have to pull a bolt to adjust one during the build or maybe after the first run, but for me that tends to be the last time they ever get adjusted?

Couple of years down the track they're beat to **** and being replaced any way.
Click to expand...
Same. I don't get the need for RH/LH. Adjust once and be done. If you really need to make an adjustment, it's not that big of a deal. It just adds a risk of problems on the trail if a jam nut comes loose. I know of one 4500 car who got put out of Hammers because somewhere along the line they banged a jam nut hard enough to loosen and then the whole link eventually unscrewed itself.
 
when I was doing my axle swap I had this question, I emailed ballistic, If I remember correctly, they recommended not screwing anything in. said you could risk deforming the threads and having bolt / rod end be stuck. Its probably just to cover their ass, but all the bungs got welded with nothing and were all perfect. everything screwed in just fine after it cooled. just my small input.. :beer:
 
Wendle said:
Food for thought:

Every buggy I've ever built has had RH rod ends
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Wendle said:
They can't self-adjust or disassemble themselves that way.
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This thinking I’ve adopted too. My ultra4 is being converted to full RH ends
gt1guy said:
That is ****ing genius.:beer:
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Thanks man. It’s borderline slow enough. I have the motor turned all the way down and up just a skosh…just enough for it to overcome the weight/load and spin over. I use a step die with a 1.5” minor diameter and this old flex hose off my race car. The ground strap is an old extension cord that I braided up and added lugs for remote tig welding. It doesn’t have to wrap tight. Just loop around and make contact :smokin:
 
Sean said:
Well, here's a $53 1 1/4-12 LH tap at Amazon: Amazon.com Most others are WAAAY more expensive.
Click to expand...
They’re cheaper than that on eBay…new even. Scrounge through all the new Chinese ads and find machine shops selling used stuff. Or even industrial surplus selling new heavily discounted stuff. You’ll find tools under $30 even in todays prices.
IMG_9562.jpeg

Winged that joint right in with my finger. No secret welding tricks or techniques. I’m just an amateur garage hack.
IMG_9561.jpeg
 
I have some old whooped out joints that I install in the bungs when I weld them in. I have done without and messed up threads, been good when I do have old joints in there.
 
WiscoF100 said:
They’re cheaper than that on eBay…new even. Scrounge through all the new Chinese ads and find machine shops selling used stuff. Or even industrial surplus selling new heavily discounted stuff. You’ll find tools under $30 even in todays prices.Winged that joint right in with my finger. No secret welding tricks or techniques. I’m just an amateur garage hack.
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Yeah, bebop posted an eBay link to one for $34 and change. EDIT JFYI...it's the wrong thread pitch though. 1 1/4-7. Coarse thread.****

They seem to run around $50 on eBay...new or used with shipping for LH. RH are obviously cheaper...$30ish or so.

www.ebay.com

1 1/4"-12 UNF Thread Tap Left Hand, HSS 1-1/4 x 12 Straight Fluted Machine Tap | eBay

1 1/4"-12 UNF Machine Thread Tap Left Hand. Be sure to select the appropriate cutting oil for the complex tapping process and apply anti-rust oil for maintenance after use. Material: HSS 6542 (M2). Straight flute design, made of 6542 high speed steel.
www.ebay.com

www.ebay.com

1-1/2 12 TPI NEW LH PLUG TAP | eBay

1 NEW 1-1/2 12 TPI PLUG TAP.
www.ebay.com

I'm leaning towards doing RH for everything now as that makes a lot of sense, unfortunately, I have a bunch of LH joints I bought quite a ways back....enough for 2 or 3 projects with f/r 4 links IIRC. I suppose I could just take all the RH stuff from one and use it on one project and all the LH from another and use it on that one.....accomplishes the same thing and the mark/dimple in the jam nuts should be the give away that it's LH.
 
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After having heims get seized in the bung during welding, I weld them empty and tap if need be.

For the tap, I use an old heim and cut some slots for cutting faces into it and just thread it in and out.
 
white-rhino said:
Same. I don't get the need for RH/LH. Adjust once and be done. If you really need to make an adjustment, it's not that big of a deal. It just adds a risk of problems on the trail if a jam nut comes loose. I know of one 4500 car who got put out of Hammers because somewhere along the line they banged a jam nut hard enough to loosen and then the whole link eventually unscrewed itself.
Click to expand...
Tire contact can spin the link off once the jams get loosened from an off center rock strike that digs in and spins the link.
 
Funny story about links unscrewing....... I threw my race car in the trailer last fall half finished so I cod make the drive to the track and finish it there. We'll one of the things that needed to be finished was the rear alignment so I just tossed new joints in the radius rods, got them close and called it good without tightening the jamb nuts. Loaded it in the trailer and took off. When I got to the track and opened the trailer my rear tires were pointed like this at the tops... / \. In the 6hr drive to the track the bouncing of the car had unscrewed all 4 radius rods to the point of almost falling apart. I would have never guessed in a million years that could happen sitting in a trailer going down the road.
 
So I stick welded my least one. 6013 root with 7018 cap. Could have done 7018 complete. I cover the threads in anti I’ve. Wrapped the eye in foil. Burned it in. Then unthreaded the joint while hot. Never boogered a thread or had one seize.
 
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