CBR Steering Pumps - OEM Applications?

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    so the question then begs, do you risk trying out 3/16" diameter orifice that should put you about 4.3gpm at 50 psi pressure drop or shoot for 11/64" first?

    #15 drill is 0.180 and right in between


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      Hahaha right. I know they're pretty durable, but I may end up spinning it pretty fast for that poor bushing so we'll see!

      Originally posted by Provience View Post
      so the question then begs, do you risk trying out 3/16" diameter orifice that should put you about 4.3gpm at 50 psi pressure drop or shoot for 11/64" first?

      #15 drill is 0.180 and right in between
      So I was thinking 11/64" would probably be my first increment, but discovered a catch. the CB flow control valve itself is slightly longer, which means it has higher spring pressure when resting against the fitting(spring length and other domensions seem to match the TC). That means it requires more pressure drop to open the same amount as the TC. And the flow return orofice back into the pump body for recirdulation is a larger size. Does that mean the same diameter orofice will have different results than the TC? Probably, damnit lol.

      Edit for a link, here's one of the only articles that almost puts numbers on things. They mention that each of their different orofice diameters go up in .007 increments, and the full sweep goes from 4-12 liters per minute. But they don't tell you what each individual option flows unfortunately

      http://mooregoodink.com/in-all-proba...eering-feel-2/
      Last edited by AgitatedPancake; 1 week ago.

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        Originally posted by AgitatedPancake View Post
        Hahaha right. I know they're pretty durable, but I may end up spinning it pretty fast for that poor bushing so we'll see!



        So I was thinking 11/64" would probably be my first increment, but discovered a catch. the CB flow control valve itself is slightly longer, which means it has higher spring pressure when resting against the fitting(spring length and other domensions seem to match the TC). That means it requires more pressure drop to open the same amount as the TC. And the flow return orofice back into the pump body for recirdulation is a larger size. Does that mean the same diameter orofice will have different results than the TC? Probably, damnit lol.

        Edit for a link, here's one of the only articles that almost puts numbers on things. They mention that each of their different orofice diameters go up in .007 increments, and the full sweep goes from 4-12 liters per minute. But they don't tell you what each individual option flows unfortunately

        http://mooregoodink.com/in-all-proba...eering-feel-2/
        so they go from 1gpm to 3gpm with 9 valves. 1 and 9 are the bookends, so we are getting 0.25 gallons per minute per orifice number and they are using 0.007" diameter increase per size.

        each 64th of an inch is just under 0.016", so about 2mm and about 0.5 gpm according to them, it obviously not linear, but meh, close enough

        if you are running 5/32 and netting about 3.75 GPM, then they must be calling something like a #29 0.136" drill (ream) for their 3gpm #9 big valve. If we use that math, then to go from 3.75 gpm cutoff to 4.5 gpm cutoff, we'd need to reach 0.177" with is a #16 drill (ream) and just shy behind my midpoint guess of a #15 0.180

        so yeah, try out 11/64" and pick up a reamer set if you don't have one. if you aren't in a hurry, i'm pretty sure i have a # set of reamers if you don't and i'll try not to fuck up a simple hole for ya.


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          “Although several of our competitors have tried over the past 16 years to duplicate this process,” adds Roper, “it cannot be duplicated in mass-produced OEM pumps—that’s the difference between a $200 production pump and a $600 proper racing unit. Wide tolerances cause excessive internal leakage that makes it impossible to regulate the output flow of the OEM-style pump.”
          this is also what radial dynamics ran into early on dealing with some stuff, not sure if he said it in this thread or not, but trying to outsource and find quality and reliable pump bases to work off of is important. i'd say moreso for a manufacture/dealer and less so for an individual in a shop because we can use junkyard stuff and modify one thing to do one thing the way one person wants it. Will it cross over exactly for anyhbody else with anyother junkyard pump? Not likely. hence the earlier "file, test, file, test" joke


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            The one catch about jumping straight up to the 11/64" in the CB is the impact from the additional spring preload via the longer valve, so I may have to start small to start over. Man I wish I had a flow meter haha. I definitely hear where you're coming from with the inconsistency across pumps as well. I may find a dialed in solution for mine, but that may not be able to directly cross reference to other people.

            TC flow valve is the short one, CB is the longer one. But they seem to use the same springs
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              valve length and spring preload being related to a higher pressure relief setting should have more of an impact on force rather than flow volume. with a higher psi relief setting, let's say you were at 1100 psi before and going to 1300 psi, you are going to have less input force required on your steering wheel. it should be 'easier to steer' but it should be any faster or slower for the net steering speed.

              if removing washer makes for higher relief PSI, then adding a washer (shim) should lower it. might be worth it to pull apart the valve, measure whatever the shim thickness that is there currently and double it. that would give you lower PSI and higher steering wheel input force required. "more road feel"

              edit: 11/64 should leave you enough room to do a final ream to #16 if you still need more.


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                Originally posted by Provience View Post
                valve length and spring preload being related to a higher pressure relief setting should have more of an impact on force rather than flow volume. with a higher psi relief setting, let's say you were at 1100 psi before and going to 1300 psi, you are going to have less input force required on your steering wheel. it should be 'easier to steer' but it should be any faster or slower for the net steering speed.

                if removing washer makes for higher relief PSI, then adding a washer (shim) should lower it. might be worth it to pull apart the valve, measure whatever the shim thickness that is there currently and double it. that would give you lower PSI and higher steering wheel input force required. "more road feel"

                edit: 11/64 should leave you enough room to do a final ream to #16 if you still need more.
                PSI is all related to the internals of the pictured valves (which I haven't analyzed yet in the CB), but the primary big spring these valves rest against sets the amount of static preload the flow valve has against the output fitting, and dictates the amount of pressure drop necessary for the flow valve to shift rearward in the bore and bypass fluid. So the fact that this valve assembly is longer, means the flow control spring is compressed more at rest meaning more force. So the flow valve has more force to overcome, meaning more pressure differential necessary between the front face and rear face of the valve

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                  Originally posted by AgitatedPancake View Post

                  PSI is all related to the internals of the pictured valves (which I haven't analyzed yet in the CB), but the primary big spring these valves rest against sets the amount of static preload the flow valve has against the output fitting, and dictates the amount of pressure drop necessary for the flow valve to shift rearward in the bore and bypass fluid. So the fact that this valve assembly is longer, means the flow control spring is compressed more at rest meaning more force. So the flow valve has more force to overcome, meaning more pressure differential necessary between the front face and rear face of the valve
                  or it means the bores and ports are physically different between the TC and CB pump.

                  as an example, looking at the orifice chart from pg 2 for 5/32", 44 psi for 3 gals, 123 psi for 5 gals, 490 psi for 10 gals, the required PSI drop increases significantly for more flow. if we are figuring about 50psi gives about 3.75 gals from about 5/32 drilled, it requires a pretty significant increase in pressure drop to increase flow from the same hole. even if the CB pump is ultimately capable of handling ~150 psi total load higher (radial offer 1800 psi CB while Trailgear offers 1650 psi TC) do we really think the OEM is building a much more significant amount of bypass pressure? that would mean the pump case itself would be seeing 200+ more psi before failure. maybe, but i'm not sure it is going to be a significant enough psi drop to matter.

                  especially when 11/64 is theoretically still small for what you are looking for cutoff flow.

                  I'm not sure, but i'm along for the ride and appreciate you taking the time to document all this


                  edit: regarding internal differences, if you put the same main spring behind each valve and on the table and measure the free height vs the preload height, then you should be able to add shims until you get the same preload on both valves and get the CB valve to match the TC relief pressure close enough
                  Last edited by Provience; 1 week ago.


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                    Originally posted by AgitatedPancake View Post
                    Man I wish I had a flow meter haha.
                    Get a 5 gal bucket with marks every 1/2 gallon to fill and a 5 gal bucket of cheap hydraulic oil to test with. Run it for 30 seconds and do the math. Bypass the reservoir lines straight to the buckets.

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                      Shoutout to my buddy that took a set of pin gauges to a stock fitting for the sake of tech, .133" orofice diameter in stock form.

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