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Magnitude replacement cases - NP205 and Dana 300

Winchested said:
He didn't make any promises hence why he said hes building a fucking inventory first.:flipoff2:
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I'll make a promise to the people in this thread prior to this message and have been burned by MMW.

Once our Magnitude transfer cases are available to order anyone that contacts me to order via messenger on Irate4x4 and can show proof they were screwed by MMW along with being a paying member of this forum will receive something free when they order a transfer case from my company. I'm not sure what the free item will be yet, I'm thinking (hoodie, hat, some sort of swag, maybe something you couldn't otherwise get). This offer will be single-use per user and only if requested while ordering.

:stirthepot::beer::grinpimp:
 
Tyler@TMI said:
I'll make a promise to the people in this thread prior to this message and have been burned by MMW.

Once our Magnitude transfer cases are available to order anyone that contacts me to order via messenger on Irate4x4 and can show proof they were screwed by MMW along with being a paying member of this forum will receive something free when they order a transfer case from my company. I'm not sure what the free item will be yet, I'm thinking (hoodie, hat, some sort of swag, maybe something you couldn't otherwise get). This offer will be single-use per user and only if requested while ordering.

:stirthepot::beer::grinpimp:
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well I'm looking for a case still, lol. even minus the free benies Looking forward to the new thread.
 
JR4X said:
I get the desire to have an alternative to an Atlas because they’re expensive. What I don’t get, is having less transfer case for more money. An opted out Atlas II is $3300 with shifters. What are you getting in a D300 for $3,900 dollars that would make one even consider doing that? Y’all know that the gears and shafts inside of an atlas are bigger better than a D300 right?

This is from AA case builder right now. They’re delivering in 5 to 6 weeks right now. Randy Slawson often has them on the shelf and the last time he was trying to sell a couple he was asking $3K for them.
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Less is a perspective. In the case of the Total Metal Innovations Magnitude 205 it is quite a bit shorter than the Atlas, MUCH larger gears, shifts better, billet vs cast case, with in lbs of the same weight as an Atlas 2. The Magnitude 300 is slightly plus or minus the strength of an Atlas and significantly smaller. So what is the advantage of an Atlas?

The photos below are of an Atlas and the Magnitude 205.

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IMG_5950.JPG
 
Tyler@TMI said:
Less is a perspective. In the case of the Total Metal Innovations Magnitude 205 it is quite a bit shorter than the Atlas, MUCH larger gears, shifts better, billet vs cast case, with in lbs of the same weight as an Atlas 2. The Magnitude 300 is slightly plus or minus the strength of an Atlas and significantly smaller. So what is the advantage of an Atlas?

The photos below are of an Atlas and the Magnitude 205.
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I’ve seen your pictures and sales pitches on line. Keep reading this thread, last post up before yours if you want to know what I publicly think about TMI, FYI for the record. Don’t want you to think I’m talking shit about you for one second.


Gearing: is the advantage. I don’t have much use for your available gear ratios personally while Advance Adapters and Phenom have you BURIED in gear ratios. You have what? Two ratios for the magnitude? 1.96 and 3.0? Now before I go any farther would you tell us all the actual cost of a complete Magnitude case with 3:1 gears 32 spline outputs and yokes. Any configuration you want, I want out the door cost. Let’s do the same with your D300. Total cost complete case with 4:1 gears 32 spline outputs and yokes.

I can find those costs myself but that’s not the point. Can you be honest with us… here… out in the open? Not hidden in private messages and emails?
 
JR4X said:
I’ve seen your pictures and sales pitches on line. Keep reading this thread, last post up before yours if you want to know what I publicly think about TMI, FYI for the record. Don’t want you to think I’m talking shit about you for one second.


Gearing: is the advantage. I don’t have much use for your available gear ratios personally while Advance Adapters and Phenom have you BURIED in gear ratios. You have what? Two ratios for the magnitude? 1.96 and 3.0? Now before I go any farther would you tell us all the actual cost of a complete Magnitude case with 3:1 gears 32 spline outputs and yokes. Any configuration you want, I want out the door cost. Let’s do the same with your D300. Total cost complete case with 4:1 gears 32 spline outputs and yokes.

I can find those costs myself but that’s not the point. Can you be honest with us… here… out in the open? Not hidden in private messages and emails?
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I never thought you were talking shit about what my company is doing.

We haven't been selling completed cases, so the honest answer is I don't know the exact retail cost of a completely assembled case. We have done a couple of assembled cases for customers but it has been on a trial level with us paying retail for all the parts we do not manufacture. Completely assembled cases were not the focus of the Magnitude at least at first, we are seeing a need for this to change. Proper product design and extensive product testing were our main focuses. Next was getting the manufacturing process under control including increasing our in-house manufacturing capacity, understanding the supply chain for materials, dialing in supply chain lead times, and how much material we need to keep on hand. This was followed by the release of the Magnitude 205 at our $2199 introductory price. We are not at a point where we want to offer fully assembled cases quite yet with a generalized here is what you get here is what it costs.

I am fully aware that doesn't exactly answer your question but it is the best answer we are prepared to give on assembled case prices. I'm sure I could pop up some dollar numbers, which likely wouldn't hold for long as we negotiate with suppliers for discounts on items we do not manufacture such as bearing kits, the Lomax gears, seals, hardware, etc.

I have chosen to take releasing our Magnitude line in small manageable steps that will allow us time to grow. This has given us time to scale our manufacturing without over-promising. Could we release the 300 or reduction boxes now yeah probably, but it wouldn't be the correct way to do business. We can all see what has happened with companies in the past.

So far most of our Magnitude 205 customers that I have been able to talk to directly have stated they were replacing an existing iron case 205 or an Atlas due to needing a stronger option than Atlas provides in conjunction with the over-inch-less case height.

The Magnitude 205 or our soon-to-be-released Magnitude 300 are not for everyone, we understand that and didn't design either case with everyone in mind. They were both designed and built for the user who has demanding needs. The Magnitude 205 offers maximum strength in an incredibly compact package for users needing 1.96:1 or 3:1 or wanting to upgrade an existing iron case 205. We built the Magnitude 205 at a physical size and weight comparable to an Atlas with much-increased strength. In some measurements, it's physically smaller.

Magnitude 300 is for the customer that needs the most compact option, much smaller than an Atlas, with fitment issues in compact buggies that will not fit other options yet still be a very tough option. With large numbers of potential customers already running stock case D300's it's a logical choice for us to support this market as well.

Would I like to have a higher volume of Magnitude 205 sales currently sure, I'd also love to win the lotto. Judging on the number of cases we have sold in a few months and the volume of customers contacting us about the Magnitude 205 I am reassured that it was the correct decision to invest company capital into building this product line.
 
Here’s some internet math for you, making all the assumptions necessary to figure this out.

A complete Lomax 205 case from JB conversions is $3395.

The diy Lomax 205 kit with just the case and gears is $1995.

$3395 - $1995 = $1400 so let’s say it takes $1400 in parts and labor plus a gear set and a case to build an all new np205.

TMI case is $2199, Lomax gears are $1595 plus the $1400 in everything else equals $5194 to build a TMI 205 with all new parts.


For comparison the pro series atlas with super finish gears and short 300m output comes out to $4070.
 
Rangerrod said:
I have a mmw 300 and just bought an atlas for the next phase. I’m done considering “boutique” vendors for transfercases. Stak,d&d, hero, mmw, first generation behemoth just to name a few that have came and gone with no customer support. That’s not what I want 10 years down the road.
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Total Metal Innovations is not exactly new here! We have been building parts for off-road and local industries since 2011. Sure the Magnitude product line is newly released, and we were very aware we would have to dig ourselves out of a hole dug by other transfer case companies. We went into this knowing we faced an uphill battle.

This is why I have been careful to be 100% sure we were pacing ourselves with product releases and not allowing pre-sales, funding this new product line 100% out of my own pocket and company assets. Sure it would have been easier to take a bunch of pre-sales and use the pre-sale money to help fund the the new product development, material, etc.

The fact is there was a void in this market one that I fell into myself. We are attempting to fill this void with a line of new products. More options are good for the market, competition will ultimately benefit the off-road community.
 
benw said:
Here’s some internet math for you, making all the assumptions necessary to figure this out.

A complete Lomax 205 case from JB conversions is $3395.

The diy Lomax 205 kit with just the case and gears is $1995.

$3395 - $1995 = $1400 so let’s say it takes $1400 in parts and labor plus a gear set and a case to build an all new np205.

TMI case is $2199, Lomax gears are $1595 plus the $1400 in everything else equals $5194 to build a TMI 205 with all new parts.


For comparison the pro series atlas with super finish gears and short 300m output comes out to $4070.
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Yup, it costs more for a stronger billet case. You're not comparing apples to apples here the 2:1 205 gears have a much larger gear contact than the Atlas Trail or Pro Series case. Step up to the wider 3:1 Lomax and they don't even compare.

If you want to compare the Atlas to another case you should be comparing it to the Dana 300 or Magnitude 300, not a 205. They are in an entirely different strength class.
 
Tyler@TMI said:
Total Metal Innovations is not exactly new here! We have been building parts for off-road and local industries since 2011. Sure the Magnitude product line is newly released, and we were very aware we would have to dig ourselves out of a hole dug by other transfer case companies. We went into this knowing we faced an uphill battle.

This is why I have been careful to be 100% sure we were pacing ourselves with product releases and not allowing pre-sales, funding this new product line 100% out of my own pocket and company assets. Sure it would have been easier to take a bunch of pre-sales and use the pre-sale money to help fund the the new product development, material, etc.

The fact is there was a void in this market one that I fell into myself. We are attempting to fill this void with a line of new products. More options are good for the market, competition will ultimately benefit the off-road community.
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I’m very optimistic to your approach to business. I think empty cases makes the most sense. And I think if mmw would have stuck to that they would still be around. I wish you the best of luck. And if a 205 was available in 4:1 you would have gotten my consideration.
 
Tyler@TMI said:
Less is a perspective. In the case of the Total Metal Innovations Magnitude 205 it is quite a bit shorter than the Atlas, MUCH larger gears, shifts better, billet vs cast case, with in lbs of the same weight as an Atlas 2. The Magnitude 300 is slightly plus or minus the strength of an Atlas and significantly smaller. So what is the advantage of an Atlas?

The photos below are of an Atlas and the Magnitude 205.

IMG_5961.JPG


IMG_5950.JPG
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Gearing options? I think that's the biggest advantage the Atlas has over a 205 based case. EDIT Late to the party...
 
The 300 market has really only ever needed a replacement case.. the 300 gearset is not comparable to atlas gearset strength. I've r&d this subject thoroughly lol. We've only ever had a 3.1 aftermarket 205 gearset available so I don't see why people whining for 4.1. Do toyota math then and get 1.whatever and add rangebox. Tyler I understand what your doing with the 205, kudos to you. Can't wait for a replacement case 300 for rock donkeys.
 
Tyler@TMI said:
Very likely some new gear options that will fit Magnitude 205 ONLY are in the works. ;-) but what do I know.
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That would be welcome news for the crawler crowd. :)
 
Sean said:
That would be welcome news for the crawler crowd. :)
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The crawler crowd doesn't really need a 205.. hence why tyler has his already selected gearing options. We already have atlas. The southeast boys and u4's will definitely benefit from the new 205.
 
On side note.. my thinking is its waste of resources for Tyler to try and compete with atlas market.. just as advanced did years ago giving jb the 300 market. I'd rather see a company offer a replacement case for all the broken 300's that reuse all the factory insides so they can continue to live in jeeple world. Offer a stronger than atlas case for the desert/bouncer/big truck crowd would be awesome. From what I can see looks like Tyler is on that path. I think building an entire 300 case will kill the 300 line.. I think you can cost effectively keep the 300 cases around for the purist crowd. My 10 cents.
 
POR said:
On side note.. my thinking is its waste of resources for Tyler to try and compete with atlas market.. just as advanced did years ago giving jb the 300 market. I'd rather see a company offer a replacement case for all the broken 300's that reuse all the factory insides so they can continue to live in jeeple world. Offer a stronger than atlas case for the desert/bouncer/big truck crowd would be awesome. From what I can see looks like Tyler is on that path. I think building an entire 300 case will kill the 300 line.. I think you can cost effectively keep the 300 cases around for the purist crowd. My 10 cents.
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I don't disagree with this...though it sounds like Tyler's already delved into the world of other 205 gearing options.

I think TMI's competition right now is probably Behemoth due to it offering similar replacement cases and full up cases for the 205 and 300....but it sounds like his shifter design may be better (among other things....won't know until both are actually in full swing with examples out in the wild being used/abused). I read Behemoth is still refining their shifter set up (for example).
 
POR said:
They are not.. you break the teeth on the middle shaft. Low max claim to fame was.. that shaft machined one piece vs friction welded like the Terra low was.. I've never seen or heard of that weld failing, it breaks the teeth. Atlas always has been and will be the upgrade for people breaking 300's. I'm not sure why that math has gone awry over the last few yrs. 300's live in portal cars and very very lightweight nonv8 buggies. The market needs the replacement case because when you wash that broken tooth through, it spreads and cracks the case. The low max gearset will fail in the same scenario as Terra gears even with the "20%" stronger claim.
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I strongly disagree, the Tera gears had a different gear profile and were of reduced strength compared to the Lomax 4:1 gears.

Stock case deflection amplifies this greatly. Solve the case problem and the 4:1 gears (at least the Lomax) are similar is strength to Atlas 3.8, 4.3, and 5.0 gears.
 
POR said:
I totally understand and agree, can't control people and what they want especially in their hobbies. But yes my opinions are mine and mine alone. Some agree some don't. Either way I'll still live lol..
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No, but you're right in pointing out that 1.95 and 3:1 are probably fine.

I'd always thought the 205 was much larger than the Atlas. To see it's shorter in height, means one could save that height in the belly of a car which would make the overall height of the vehicle (and the CoG) lower....and it looks to be over an inch, which is a big deal when you're dropping the whole drivetrain by that amount.

For me (and just me personally) a 3:1 isn't low enough to really consider it though for my use case....but a 4:1 might be....or, if I had the room...a doubler would likely work really nicely...but a gearset wouldn't be required for that either. The draw to the 205 is the strength (obviously) even though I probably wouldn't need it...and I think that's the draw for most anyone looking at the option.
 
POR said:
Like I said I've really r&d this and my bank account says they break the same lol. I do agree with the stock case deflection. The gears were still failing in the mmw cases as well. Nice thing with the biillet cases is you can fix your broken gearset. My info is real world experience on my end. Just adding my experiences to the conversation with actually breaking all this junk multiple times.
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Totally understand and respect your input / opinion. The 300’s in any form (stock, MMW, Behemoth, Stak, Magnitude, etc. ) isn’t the answer for everyone.

For the guys already invested in D300 or needing the most compact option while maintaining an impressive level of strength it’s a fantastic option.

Quite a few builders don’t have the room for anything larger.

My company is focused on giving people additional options. We have a long list of drivetrain related new products in various stages of development and testing.

We didn’t plunge into this product line without a thorough comprehensive analysis of the market and list of shortcomings within the industry.

Magnitude 205 was designed, built and tested to meet my personal needs. I’ve always said as a company we wouldn’t manufacture items (excluding simple items like shock tabs, etc. they are what they are) unless we could meet two items from this list.

1. Make a noticeable improvement to a product.

2. Lower the cost of a product significantly.

3. Compete with an imported product at a similar price point.

4. Add value to a product in a unique fashion.

The need for a transfer case caused me to add a 5th reason.

5. Build a product I ordered that was never delivered.

Let’s face it if you’re part of this thread it’s likely you or someone you know was taken by another transfer case company same as I was. Yes after extensive fighting I was issued a refund but the issue pushed us to develop the Magnitude 205 to solve my needs. Originally I was only going to build 4-5 of them, make myself one and hook a couple of wheeling buddies up with one. This lead to that and the slippery slope took over. Customers stopping by the shop saw the Magnitude 205, then a couple local buggy builders caught wind of the cases. Next thing you know we’re taking a in depth look at the market. Purchasing new cnc machines to increase production, completely rearrange the shop, triple the portion of building we were utilizing for manufacturing and released the Magnitude 205.

During this time we have also been developing, manufacturing, additional new Magnitude products including but not limited to Magnitude 300, and an array of reduction case options.

I’ll say it again options are good for the customer!
 
POR said:
Food for some thought.. the atlas fits in pretty much anywhere the oem 300 lives, that was taken into consideration back in the day when designed. Was stronger than the 300.. almost as strong as 205. Previous replace cases for 300 were about the same dimensions as atlas case now. this 205 case is smaller than atlas but way stronger.. but this new 300 case is proclaimed as strong as 205.. essentially your 2 product lines are competing.. which is what AA figured out in the 90's when they dropped their 300 line..That is why atlas is still around... at least from where I'm sitting.
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Never have I placed the 205 and the 300 anywhere near each other in strength.

I’ve said the Atlas is more comparable to the 300. The 205 is significantly stronger than Atlas.
 
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Sean said:
I'd always thought the 205 was much larger than the Atlas. To see it's shorter in height, means one could save that height in the belly of a car which would make the overall height of the vehicle (and the CoG) lower....and it looks to be over an inch, which is a big deal when you're dropping the whole drivetrain by that amount.
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You thought 205s were much larger because the OEM cases are. The cases have a bunch of weird bosses and junk that make them bigger than they need to be. The magnitude 205 shape is clearly optimized.

Atlas is 9.75" tall 17.5" wide, the Magnitude 205 is 9.39" tall 18.003" wide. The diagram I'm looking at is not clear if the atlas height dimension includes the bolt heads on the bottom cover, that could account for a little more height difference.
 
Sean said:
No, but you're right in pointing out that 1.95 and 3:1 are probably fine.

I'd always thought the 205 was much larger than the Atlas. To see it's shorter in height, means one could save that height in the belly of a car which would make the overall height of the vehicle (and the CoG) lower....and it looks to be over an inch, which is a big deal when you're dropping the whole drivetrain by that amount.

For me (and just me personally) a 3:1 isn't low enough to really consider it though for my use case....but a 4:1 might be....or, if I had the room...a doubler would likely work really nicely...but a gearset wouldn't be required for that either. The draw to the 205 is the strength (obviously) even though I probably wouldn't need it...and I think that's the draw for most anyone looking at the option.
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Tyler already touched on it but going to add. Part of the difference in height is the bottom cover on the atlas. For all ratios lower than 3:1 the difference in gear size necessitates pulling the center gear first before the input or output gears will be able to come out. I can’t see if TMI has a bottom cover but looks like no. A D300 with 4:1 gears works because the same reason. It has a bottom cover allowing the removal of the center gear first. If that TMI can fit any lower ratios, it’s going to have to have a way to get the center gear in lastly, and out firstly for assembly.

With 2.0 and 3.0 the gears are closer together in overall diameter, so the the bigger of the two center gear’s aren’t so big in diameter that they block the holes for the front/rear output holes. on a stock 205 the center gear goes in as one of the first steps through the big window in the case. If the case halves come apart like a STAK/Hero/Phenom it might make it doable, I can’t quite tell.
 
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