Buggy Wiring - Main Cables/Terminations/Power Distribution

[desertPOS]

Trying to get my head wrapped around a plan for full rig wiring - thought I'd throw it up here and see if anyone has any feedback that might help dial things in. For now, mostly wanting to get main cables, bulkhead connectors and fuse boxes ordered so I can make sure I've got room for everything where I'm planning to put it - passenger side dash. Initial schematic that I'm sure will change:

1/2" firewall bulkheads at Del City only rated for 400 amps, so I need to find something heavier duty - think winch peaks out at 450 or 500 amps. Same with junction studs under the hood. Any problems with that plan? I like the idea of bulkheads and junction studs, since I can tee off from there for power to battery main switch, starter, etc. Although the alternative is running a cable solely for winch, pass-though firewall so no extra connections, then run separate cables for batt switch and underhood power. But then there's still the Premier Power Welder. Pros/cons?

For power distribution, I'm looking at stuff like this:

Metri-Pack 280 Sealed MINI®/MIICRO® Fuse & Relay Panel - 30 Amp, Bussed

ISO 280 Mini Relay - Bussed Inputs

www.delcity.net

https://www.waytekwire.com/product/eaton-s-bussmann-series-15305-1-2-3-mini-fuse

https://www.waytekwire.com/catalog/power-distribution/power-distribution-modules/eaton-s-bussmann-series-15303-6-2-4-rtmr-mini-fuse

For 'fusebox 3' with close to 30 circuits/fuses it'd be great to find a power distribution box that can handle all of it together - especially if there are slots to plug in relays. Found this, which looks like a cool solution, but seems a little steep at $450

Street / Strip Wiring Board 8 70amp Relays

Street/Strip wiring board features: 8x 70 amp relays with heavy duty fuse sockets (one with built in optional transbrake safety for use with nitrous system), fused transbrake relay. Fused lighting outputs including high beam headlights, low beam headlights, turn signal blinkers, brake light...

precisionfabandwire.com

There's also the Busted Knuckle boxes that I don't quite understand the pricepoint on: 16 circuits Weatherproof Relay/Fuse Center


Good video showing Eaton fuse modules like linked above, with links to tools/parts needed:




Thoughts or critiques on random bullshit posted above? I ain't no electrical enginerd


.

 

[Bebop]

Holley ECU 12V and ground goes direct to battery.
Same for the intercom if you want to minimize interference.
Why is your constant hot through a relay if it's constant ?
Why does the alt have 2 wires?
What kill switch are you using ?

There are a lot of circuits in your vehicle.

 

[desertPOS]

Holley ECU 12V and ground goes direct to battery.
Same for the intercom if you want to minimize interference.
Why is your constant hot through a relay if it's constant ?
Why does the alt have 2 wires?
What kill switch are you using ?

There are a lot of circuits in your vehicle.

What does it matter for the Holley stuff if it gets power direct from a battery post, or from another 12v source? At minimum, it seems it could maybe be to the switched post on the batt switch, but batt switch should be able to kill power to the EFI. The way I have it is just so that when the batt switch is switched on, any accessories like lights etc. will get power, but it's not unitl the ignition switch is flipped the oil accumulator, EFI, etc get power

'Constant Hot' fusebox 1 is just what I labeled it - but I like the idea of being able to plug a phone in to charge without turning on the main battery switch. Same with stereo or comms. In the past I've done that for ultra4 rules to make sure there's comms even if the battery switch is switched off - seems like a good way to do it. I could wire all that stuff direct to battery but it seems more likely to forget to turn something off - as opposed to batt main switch and 'constant hot' switch off = no power draw off battery. Makes sense to me anyway

One of the alt wires goes to the welder

Blue sea kill switch. Toggles under it are getting switched out, but ignition on/off on left, on/off/on switch on right for fuel pump 1 or 2, starter momentary below that

Yes, a lot of circuits, but street legal rig with blinkers, brake lights, etc...

Main goal for right now is to get the main components ordered so I can fab up all mounting needed for everything, and weld up cable mounts, install bulkheads, etc. Still enough welding left that I'm not ready to be doing final wiring work yet, but hopefully soon.

Holley EFI may need 'direct to batt' as well as switched 12v - if that's the case I'll make that adjustment later. I need to look at the wiring for that again

 

[Muckin_Slusher]

Pic or part number of this Del City 1/2 inch 400 amp bulkhead fitting?

400 amp rating will be plenty good enough. Consider the duty cycle of your winch or welder, same thing applies to conductors.

 

[Austin]

Wouldn't that rear winch would still draw when the battery disconnect is off?

 

[desertPOS]

Pic or part number of this Del City 1/2 inch 400 amp bulkhead fitting?

400 amp rating will be plenty good enough. Consider the duty cycle of your winch or welder, same thing applies to conductors.

Bulkhead: Stud-Type, Feed-Through Panel Mount Junction Blocks - 3/8" Stud (click on the 1/2" tab)
Junction: Stand Alone Mount Junction Block - 5/16", 250 Amp

According to WARN manual, the M12,000 has a 440 max amp draw. So the 1/2" probably would be just fine but would rather use something rated for that or higher

Wouldn't that rear winch would still draw when the battery disconnect is off?

Rear winch is wired the same as the front. Contactor box wired straight to batt, my schematic doesn't show a contactor box for the rear winch but same idea. I believe that is how everyone does it. Seems like there should be a fusible link between batt and winch but from past stuff I've read it's not commonly done that way? In the past I've just chafe guarded any part of the cable that looks like it might rub anything and send it

 

[Bebop]

What does it matter for the Holley stuff if it gets power direct from a battery post, or from another 12v source?

Holley ECUs aren't protected for transient / flyback voltage. You should watch this. I already started it at the right moment for you.

The way I have it is just so that when the batt switch is switched on, any accessories like lights etc. will get power, but it's not unitl the ignition switch is flipped the oil accumulator, EFI, etc get power

You're confusing ECU power and engine accessory power.

'Constant Hot' fusebox 1 is just what I labeled it - but I like the idea of being able to plug a phone in to charge without turning on the main battery switch. Same with stereo or comms. In the past I've done that for ultra4 rules to make sure there's comms even if the battery switch is switched off - seems like a good way to do it. I could wire all that stuff direct to battery but it seems more likely to forget to turn something off - as opposed to batt main switch and 'constant hot' switch off = no power draw off battery. Makes sense to me anyway

I think it's added complexity for nothing. But if it makes sense to you, go ahead, won't hurt anything.

Holley EFI may need 'direct to batt' as well as switched 12v - if that's the case I'll make that adjustment later. I need to look at the wiring for that again

Yes it does. Technically it needs 3 power wires.

 

[desertPOS]

Better?

Thanks for posting that video, I didn't know that - I've got the Holley ECU added into the mix now with power straight to batt. I'll look into race radio doing the same. Switched 12v goes to Fusebox 2, which is all I planned to have run there in the first place. Main ECU power would have been run to batt switch under my first plan, but now goes all the way to batt.

With the idea of flyback voltage, seems like it'd be better this way since all the high amerage stuff - starter, welder, winch - is more isolated from the rest of the electrical. Maybe fans can be part of the high amperage circuit too.


So should I have any fusible links on any of the high amperage stuff? Solenoid between starter and junction stud it ties into?

Any feedback or better ideas for the fuse boxes I linked?

 

[desertPOS]

Dug this up earlier - may as well post in here since we're talking about it

 

[desertPOS]

BTT

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Have a look at these for fuse block. Looks like you could use one of the circuits for clean power and the other for dirty power. One clean power fuse block for radio, ECM, gps, sensitive devices rather than run six small gauge wires to the battery lug.

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir - Kartek Off-Road

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno, Silk Way Rally...

www.kartek.com

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I had the small Eaton relay fuse block on the harness 208Motorsports made and it is too light duty. The terminals and relays are small and generated high heat and burned some relays but the fuses did not pop. I ended up running those relays to bigger external relays and at that point it was just extra bulk and wiring. I deleted it for the new build.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Ultra4 rule book- paraphrased
Kill switch should be accessible by all on dash. Bright color and labeled.
The kill switch needs to shut down the engine and kill power to accessories with exception of winch and low draw secondary equipment.
Common failure mode is alternator charging the switched side of the kill, powering all systems even with the switch off.


My understanding to accomplish this is: the alt power wire should go back before the kill switch on the battery side. That means the alt wire is always hot and should have a fuse on the battery side.
With a front winch it would make sense to run power lines from rear mounted battery to the front winch and divide power from there to alternator and kill switch.
Would make sense to have another kill switch near the winch that doubles as a lug to divert power.

 

[Scottie]

Yes hydrodynamic is correct on the alternator/kill switch wiring. Motion race works has a YouTube video explaining this as well.

Have you looked into any of the solid state pdm options? A little more money but so awesome to work with. So many options for programming circuits!

I used Switch-Pros 12 on my cj6 build in the jeep section, got the whole vehicle on the one system with a 15 and 30 circuit left over. Full street legal, heated seats, fridge, lighting etc.

Also used solid state battery disconnect as well, means no high amp cable to the switch. Triggers via small ground wire.

 

[desertPOS]

Have a look at these for fuse block. Looks like you could use one of the circuits for clean power and the other for dirty power. One clean power fuse block for radio, ECM, gps, sensitive devices rather than run six small gauge wires to the battery lug.

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir - Kartek Off-Road

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno, Silk Way Rally...

www.kartek.com

That Blue Sea box may actually work really well. I have used that same fuse block before and it's great - everything's looking you right in the face, easy to add circuits later without having to pull it and pin anything in to the back. I overlooked it so far for this build because I was looking at it as a common positive feeding 12 circuits, but the fact that it's split up into banks of 6 make it a little more usable. I'd need to use at least 3 of them - although I'll have to look at the Blue Sea site later and see what variations they offer. I was looking at the Eaton Bussman fuses, or something along those lines, because the end result seems like it'd be much cleaner and take up less space - especially if there is a provision for relays to plug into (as opposed to panel-mount relays and spade connectors). Worth revisiting though...

I like the idea of a 'clean power' fuse block that gets power straight from the battery lug - will definitely be going that route here. Good suggestion

I had the small Eaton relay fuse block on the harness 208Motorsports made and it is too light duty. The terminals and relays are small and generated high heat and burned some relays but the fuses did not pop. I ended up running those relays to bigger external relays and at that point it was just extra bulk and wiring. I deleted it for the new build.

That is definitely good to know. There are at least a handful of variations for that style of box - I wonder if they offer similar versions rated for a little more amperage? I was trying to look it up on their site a minute ago and wasn't able to find, but made a note to look into it later when I have a little more time.

Even if not using for fuses, I do think it'd be great to have a box that all the relays plug into, as opposed to a bunch of panel-mount relays and spade connectors.

Ultra4 rule book- paraphrased
Kill switch should be accessible by all on dash. Bright color and labeled.
The kill switch needs to shut down the engine and kill power to accessories with exception of winch and low draw secondary equipment.
Common failure mode is alternator charging the switched side of the kill, powering all systems even with the switch off.


My understanding to accomplish this is: the alt power wire should go back before the kill switch on the battery side. That means the alt wire is always hot and should have a fuse on the battery side.
With a front winch it would make sense to run power lines from rear mounted battery to the front winch and divide power from there to alternator and kill switch.
Would make sense to have another kill switch near the winch that doubles as a lug to divert power.

That's my plan with alt plugging into the junction stud under the hood. From there, that makes sense to put a fusible link in the mix, so I just need to determine what type. I'll contact Premier, since alt and welder are both from them - I don't think it shows a fusible link in their wiring schematic but I'll check again later.

Can you explain what you mean by another kill switch near the winch? I'm not following, but I do have a junction stud right there next to the winch contactor box that will accomplish similar thing

 

[Bebop]

My understanding to accomplish this is: the alt power wire should go back before the kill switch on the battery side. That means the alt wire is always hot and should have a fuse on the battery side.

It works and will pass tech.
It's still a pretty terrible way to go about this IMO.

Quad pole with a separate kill circuit for the alt is the way to go about it.

 

[Sluggy]

Have a look at these for fuse block. Looks like you could use one of the circuits for clean power and the other for dirty power. One clean power fuse block for radio, ECM, gps, sensitive devices rather than run six small gauge wires to the battery lug.

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir - Kartek Off-Road

Blue Sea Systems Split 12 Circuit ATO Blade Fuse Block With Neg Bus 100A Max Per Block 30A Per Cir for offroad racing in the King of the Hammers, New Zealand Taupo 1000, Dakar Rally, Tatts Finke Desert Race, Score International Baja 500 or Baja 1000, Mint 400, Vegas to Reno, Silk Way Rally...

www.kartek.com

I have that exact one in my buggy and it's been solid for the last 4 years.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Quad pole with a separate kill circuit for the alt is the way to go about it.

 

[mobil1syn]

https://www.joesracing.com/media/product-photos/46216-4polehd-battery-disconnect.pdf

 

[desertPOS]

https://www.joesracing.com/media/product-photos/46216-4polehd-battery-disconnect.pdf

Looks like ol’ joe don’t believe in separating clean and dirty voltage

 

[Bebop]

Looks like ol’ joe don’t believe in separating clean and dirty voltage

If you wire your ECU directly to the battery you won’t have a problem.

 

[Bebop]

love it 🤣

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

This should do the same thing, if you are willing to turn a knob 180* vs 90*
Cheaper. Less lugs to wire. Higher amp rating.
0 is power to engine
1 is battery
2 is alternator
Run position is 1+2, OFF is OFF

Blue Sea Systems M-Series Red Dual Battery Cut Off Isolator Switch With Removable Knob - Kartek Off-Road

Blue Sea Systems M-Series Red Dual Battery Cut Off Isolator Switch With Removable Knob for a sandrail, rock Crawler, KOH, Ultra4, truck, UTV, side-by-side, dune buggy, mini buggy, manx, king of the hammers, 4x4, or Jeep

www.kartek.com

 

[Bebop]

I used the 4 pole of the same model line in the last car I wired. Love those.

180 motion is a lot harder to do in case of a crash. Doesn’t pass tech either. Just use a jumper off of the 2 “in” poles.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I used the 4 pole of the same model line in the last car I wired. Love those.

180 motion is a lot harder to do in case of a crash. Doesn’t pass tech either. Just use a jumper off of the 2 “in” poles.

Why no pass tech?
Inspectors too lazy to turn an extra 90°?
Or labeling is too complicated saying OFF?

Does this pass tech? It’s 3 pole. Texas correctional facility has it listed for auction.

 

[CarterKraft]

Does anyone break the ground instead of power?

 

[j.mcconnell]

It works and will pass tech.
It's still a pretty terrible way to go about this IMO.

Quad pole with a separate kill circuit for the alt is the way to go about it.

My street/strip car is on a 2-pole and I've been meaning to change it forever. It sucks to have the power "off" and arc a wrench off the alt because you forgot it was still hot.

 

[Bebop]

Does anyone break the ground instead of power?

Doesn't kill the engine. It'll just fry electronics.

 

[desertPOS]

Why no pass tech?
Inspectors too lazy to turn an extra 90°?
Or labeling is too complicated saying OFF?

Does this pass tech? It’s 3 pole. Texas correctional facility has it listed for auction.

That'd be sweet in a rat rod, and already has a bottle opener on it

Does anyone break the ground instead of power?

I was just wondering whether it'd be a good idea to have a batt switch right next to the negative battery lug to switch off the ground. Not for purposes of killing the electrical while it's running, but in lieu of disconnecting the ground if you're just storing the rig for a while or working on something. Not that it's hard to disconnect the battery, but tool-less disconnect. Although in favor of less connections and less complexity I'd rather just keep it simple. Interesting thought though...

 

[CarterKraft]

Doesn't kill the engine. It'll just fry electronics.

Its the standard method on heavy equipment, never seen it damage any electronics but I can't say I have tried it a bunch.